Ken Nordine interview with Ruth Page [1957, Chicago] - Frankie & Johnny [1938, Chicago, Great Northern Theatre]

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You You You Hi, it's I Ken Nordine and tonight.

I'd like to have you join with us as we Leave the world of the everyday To visit a world of fantasy a world of the imagination In fact, I'd like to have you come up very close right now and take a close look at my eyes and then with your vision I'd like to have you imagine a Dancing I I I I You You You So the curtains close on a surrealistic dance, that's what you call having a ball with ballet I like the part about the eye because I figure that The eye is in the navel which makes it a sort of placental eye looking back toward beginnings But basically as a dance, it's for fun which I speak as if I know something about ballet, which is a lie I Would like to find out about ballet though and tonight I think you and I will as we talk with Ruth page who danced that? surrealistic dance Ruth page is now changing her clothes to look like an everyday human being to forget her surrealism Ruth page I'd like to tell you has contributed Tremendously to not only American ballet, but international ballet she was discovered by Anna Pavlova and Pavlova took Ruth page on a tour to South America She studied with Adolf boom who introduced her to Chicago and London She was the leading dancer in Irving Berlin's music box review and For two years the premier dances of the Metropolitan Opera the first woman So to be honored She'll be out with us in just a few moments something else.

I'd like to tell you Ruth page was a guest artist with the ballet ruse de Monte Carlo She performed in Tokyo for the enthronement of Hirohito Of course, this was some time ago She was a guest artist in Moscow at the invitation of the Russian government Of course, the Russian government has sponsored ballet for so many many years She has contributed tremendously to the American ballet on the level of experiment and this we will find out about She started her ballet experience very early at the age of six Now these are just a few facts that I picked up from miss page before we went on the air, but now she's here dressed up like She looks in everyday life Ruth.

I was talking with the people at home about the eye and the navel and the idea that it looks back toward beginnings and I mentioned the fact that You started your interest in ballet at the age of six, which is rather unusual Mr.

Nardin, you have a very golden tongue and you know, my profession is dancing and not talking You really make my life sound like a fairy tale.

So maybe I should start by saying once upon a time Well, I think once upon a rhyme would be wonderful.

We could go back to that time when you were six Tell me about that.

You actually became interested in ballet at the age of six Well, I lived in Indianapolis, Indiana as a little girl and my mother took me to see Anna Pavlova and After I saw Anna Pavlova, I really have been walking on air ever since I thought it was the world that I wanted to be in And even when I went backstage and saw all the dancers Sweaty and dirty and working.

I was fascinated I saw them doing all holding on to the piano and holding on to the ladders and doing all these strange things with their feet I'm still fascinated with it.

But I must say you do have to be a little bit careful you know one time I had an experience and I was doing a concert someplace and I was doing some very pretty dances and Afterwards I was very tired My makeup was off running down my face and I put on an old sweater and an old pair of trousers I had to pack my own trunk and some little girl came backstage and she said I want to see miss page I said well, I'm miss page and she said oh So since then I tried to be a little bit more glamorous backstage but you weren't you weren't so discouraged and I was thinking how unusual it is for after all a child of six so often children that age and even though they're decided going to be nurses or Doctor's or their boys or firemen or policemen But at the age of six you decided that you were going to the ballet and you did it Yes, and I I still am doing it.

I'm gonna do it forever.

I hope Well, you were an Indianapolis then and where did you get your first? Real training well actually you see there were no good ballet teachers there at that time So I learned by cutting out pictures from dance magazines putting the pictures all up on the wall I'd lie in my bed and look at these pictures and then practice them in front of the mirror Or I'd make up things myself and I really started choreographing or making up dances long before I ever knew anything about Dances and of course you are known today as a choreographer Yes I really am more interested in much more interested in choreographing than I am in dancing by by way of say a parentheses here What is a choreographer for those who may not know? Well a choreographer is nothing but a composer of dances that means you make up all the steps and Well, he's much more than that actually he has to do everything But that's the main function is to make up all the steps and get the ideas for the ballets put the costumes together An artistic producer, you know, that's right.

That's what it is Well now you you came in contact with Anna Pavlova at the age of six and then again later on I went to school then in New York and I took regular lessons then from Adolf Baum Then I went to South America as you've told Before I stayed with her there for a year My mother went with me and then I went back to school and I came back and finished Then I went to Europe and I was a long time in Europe really dancing in London with Baum And I joined the Ballet race to Monte Carlo But then my prince came along so I got married and I've been living happily in Chicago ever after With your prince Only I really haven't been here very much I've spent much more time away from Chicago than I do in Chicago.

Of course you are known as Centralizing your activities here in Chicago and in the Midwest although you have traveled all over the world Well, I do all my experimenting here.

I really do the first dance I ever did is this one I think this will make you laugh.

It's the flapper and the quarterback.

Take a look at it.

Isn't it funny? Is this one of the dances that you choreographed? Yes, that's the very first one which shows that having been in Europe so much I think that it made me more self -consciously American than I might have been otherwise And this is you kicking your foot up so high Yes, the roaring 20s of the Charleston.

Well, it was rather unusual then to do jazz in concerts Now I sort of started that and then I went on from there The first really big ballet I did was one that I did here called La Gea Bless It was based on a Martinique legend and I used 50 Negroes from the South Side I used to come down the South Side every day all summer here in Chicago Yes here in Chicago We worked very hard on it and we finally did it with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and Katherine Dunham and I Stared together in it then we later did it at the opera So you see they were more adventuresome in those days than they are now.

What does La Gea Bless mean? It means Diabless, it's the patois, the Martinique patois for Diabless which means she devil I was the she devil There's a little bit of a devil in all of us, but you women have your share What else did you do then? You went from this jazz influence? Oh, I went on I did a lot of jazz I did a ballet called Hear Ye, Hear Ye Which was the story of a murder trial as told by three witnesses and each of the three witnesses told it in an entirely different way The idea back at the ballet was how difficult it is to get justice in this world even in law courts There was a social content as I say or a social message in Oh, I was great on social content In those days I did another one called An American Pattern Which is all about the American housewife and all her problems and you know, there are a lot of them I know we have three children at home and my wife has her hands full Then actually I think that my best -known Ballet is one that I did with Bentley Stone for the WPA here It was based on the American folk song of Frankie and Johnny were lovers Oh Lord and how they could love And here's a picture where I am shooting.

Mr.

Stone out of the window.

I'm Frankie and he's Johnny This is the section where they swore to be true to each other He'd already been unfaithful then and and he was served him right I think so too We have an interesting experience with this ballet when we did it in Paris we did it the Chantélysee theater not very long ago and the Paris audience was absolutely Scandalized when they saw a corpse and a coffin coming on the stage.

Why should that be? Well, it's absolutely contrary to fruition custom to have a corpse for coffin on the stage And you see we had him carried with six American tap dancers and we thought it was rather amusing and everybody here did that Absolutely creative riot And here's the end of the ballet But they the audience booed and hissed and carried on they said they hadn't been such a riot in the Parisian theater Stravinsky played exactly du prompt on there when Actually, this seems rather strange that must be in the ballet particularly the theater there because they have the grand guillon which is Anyway, that's the way it was so they booed and hissed at least it was a reaction.

Oh, it was fun It was very exciting.

They had to call out the police Well, then we did another one this one maybe you'd be interested in This is the bells of Edgar Allan Poe the tint and abulation Abulation.

Yes, you know how Edgar Allan Poe always starts with love and youth and Charm and then everything always disintegrates at the end very much as his own life Well, I Symbolized this not only in the dance But I had a church rising at the beginning and then at the end when everything stood in the disintegrate the church collapses Which is reminiscent of the fall of the house of us here.

Yes sort of an eclectic ballet of the pole Yes, well his things are always in that way and people don't like them very much They don't like morbidity.

You see I like sad endings.

Don't you I rather enjoy poor I think he's one of our great American ladies.

Well, they think so in Europe.

Here's one I tell you the last jazz ballet I did was about Billy Sunday.

He was making a sermon on Temptation sometime before Billy Graham.

Yes.

He was the original one I guess and the sermon Was about he had I picked four temptation Scenes and this is one of them actually I made the devil a baseball player The Billy was always having bouts with the devil, you know, and in the end, of course, he strikes him out.

This one is of Bathsheba taking her bath with Billy over there at the side I see this to the right here.

Is this Billy? Yes in the cloak.

I see That's she was back there Then we had the wise and foolish virgins and Samson and Delilah One of the sections of the Bible.

Yes, it was the Bible in slang They told him I did all the dancing and what was the reaction to this? No, it was very amusing people like that They we did it with the Ballet Rous to Monte Carlo and Danilo was not in part of her and she was she talked Frederick Franklin was Billy's son and they both talked which is rather unusual, you know ballet art is usually silent Well, then that was about the end of my jazz period.

I haven't done anything in jazz for a long time I know you're interested in jazz, but to be chronological What did you do after you did? Well, I went into a sort of an abstract period actually, you know, there was a time there when We were all the artists I think were very much influenced by modern architecture Modern painting modern music and I was naturally very influenced too We were searching for new meanings inner meanings We did all kinds of strange things and I'll show you pictures of some of them Here's one that I did called expanding universe It looks as if you're wrapped up in a sack there Sack why it was quite hot in there, but I made interesting sort of sculpture s design These are some drawings that he saw Monoguchi made out of the Well, he's half Japanese of course here's another one in the same period where it was Strings instead of sacks.

I love these pictures.

Don't you they sort of freeze time? Of course we artists loved this period but the audience didn't always like it I remember during this period I was dancing with a great German dancer Harold Kreutzberg and We were got along fine when we were in the big cities, but once we went to a little town in Iowa And we thought our concert was a great big success We did all these very modern numbers and there was lots of applause and the next day There was a long review and paper about it and it said how wonderful we were what great artists we were And at the end it said we hope they never come back Well, what what time you know, this was recently of course What time would this be well that period was thought between 1935 and 40 when I was dancing with him Just coming out of the depression and just before the yes.

It was a very interesting period There were no swan queens no sleeping beauties and it was in and here's another picture that might interest you You know, I I had two tours in the Orient and in all the places that I went I studied the native dancers I learned the Japanese dances in Japan with all these funny little head movements Then in Bali I studied these and learned these and I bought Balinese costumes and Japanese costumes Is this Balinese? No, this is not I Started to do these dances realistically like this and it was ridiculous because any Japanese girl could have done them better any Balinese girl could have done them better So I forgot it all and tried just doing an impression This is an impression of the tropics this dance is called tropic And I think it's one of the most successful because it I didn't do any of the movements I think the mass is probably influenced by no game In other words you attempted to get the essence of what you felt the Balinese Yes, and that's the way to do it, of course then this one is rather funny I think this is this is I guess you recognize me here.

I am trying to represent toil, but I don't think that was very successful in that one It looked like a sailor got mad there.

I don't I don't think that one was a very big success I think that I finished with that period fairly quickly without five years In other words this is you in we're speaking now in terms of of your development as an artist over a period of some time I began with a classical period then you went to the jazz period then which you might call American folk Myth a ballerina I call it my backyard period because I was looking around at home to see what material I could find at home then then moving from that into the abstract experimental each one experimental but in a different direction So now we're up to the abstract.

Where do we go from here? Well lately I have been doing offers in the ballets And that's quite interesting I don't know how I ever got started on it but I think I got started because I've always been associated with opera companies I've Really learned my trade at the Ravinia opera and the cologne opera in Buenos Aires the Metropolitan Opera But of course, you know the dancers never had any union until just recently So sometimes we'd be called early as 10 o 'clock in the morning and we wouldn't dance until four So there I was sitting around all day and I loved it actually I didn't complain I listened to it, but I didn't like the way they operas looked So I used to shut my eyes and listen to the beautiful music and then came all these ideas about how these wonderful Stories and how this wonderful music could be done Well one thing that I'd like to before we Examine your creating Ballet opera I've been staring at this statue.

That's right behind you Don't you recognize me? Is that you? Oh, yes.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I really am a little bit excited.

Who did that? The same one who designed the stacks for all the that period expanding universe period.

Oh that is from the abstract Exciting if he did the bells to he did be the church that rises and falls.

Well now back to where we were This creating valley of opera you take what have you done in that field so far? Well, I've done five the first one I did was Carmen of course that is a natural because all the tunes and other dance tunes and I called it guns and cast mits and I put it into the Spain of the revolution the fascist and loyalist revolution now I don't change them about as much as I did then now Try to get just as close to the inner motivation of the story and they listen to the music without reading all of the words that go with it and try to Get out it that way and I think it's better out the second one.

I did was the Trovatore And I have a picture that this is actually the last act If I did it first at Mandel Hall in 1950, I think 51 no 51 I guess Just an experimental performance down there without any orchestra with the costumes that weren't quite successful So I liked it.

However, I mean I love the music I should say and I love the crazy story You know that was originally based on a play in the 15th century Spain.

It took them eight days to do the play Then when he said he's there he wrote it it took him four hours But mine now is down to about a little under an hour it takes for me to do mine So you've come full circle now you're Started out with the classical training along through jazz Americana abstract and now of course with your interest in making operas into ballet You have come full circle as we say and you're interested again in the legitimate classical ballet is a simple art form I'd like to ask you about that other sketch that you have back there.

Well, this is by Bordman O 'Connor of channel 11 and he did it especially for this part of there what you're going to see now It's by Beethoven is based the middle section of Beethoven's Sonata which is popularly called the patty peak.

This is the adagio section The dancers are miss Barbara steel and mr.

Charles Schick.

They're both soloists of the Chicago lyric opera and The neo -cane is at the piano Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh We hope you've enjoyed this short visit with Ruth page into the imaginative world of ballet By the way last year with page Traveled 22 ,000 miles and visited 130 cities throughout the United States with her ballet group This she will do again this fall and winter I'd like to turn your attention now to some of the people who were connected with this half hour of course Ruth page Barbara steel and Charles Schick our two dancers Neil K and the pianist Bordman O 'Connor set designer Richard Mansfield our director and this is my name here, but bottom billing of course goes to You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You

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