Why are you taping this? Well, let me adjust this mic here.
What are you doing? I was just adjusting it.
Well, I'm...
Okay, the red button.
Lights off.
Object, that's right! You're making women into objects, that's it! Come on! Come on! Jane Bracken said the same thing.
When? In art forums, she said, you are using me in your films.
That's what she said to Bracken.
Yeah, but you know...
And she wanted to put up with it.
Well, I don't have to put up with it.
I don't think...
Well, she must have gotten something out of that too.
I mean, I don't know.
The problem is, I think the problem with you male filmmakers, is all these paintings that you do, you think that you're artists, right? And you see all these, you go and see all these paintings, you know, all these women sort of lying around, you know.
And you say, oh, well, I'm not going to do that.
I want to make art films, I'll make art films about women lying around.
Like, god...
I mean, Lourde makes a film about a hallway, right? And he sticks a nude in there.
Now where did he get her? She didn't come down the hall, you know.
She came from out of some painting somewhere.
It's just making...
Well, then what should I film? If you want to make a film about a relationship, why don't you make it about your relationship with your friend Andrew? You're close to him.
Yeah, but I'm not as close as I am to you.
Well, but he's a man.
I think it'd be a lot more interesting.
Well, why don't you make a film about, you know, sexism at work? Hmm.
In relationship with people there.
Well, you...
Why, that might do something.
I'd get a lot of trouble.
Yeah, right, you might.
Those guys, I mean, you think that I have a bad attitude.
What about those guys, huh? Yeah, well, you're not doing anything to change your attitude.
You just sit there and, you know, take it all in.
You don't even argue with them.
Well, I don't know.
I mean, some of the women there argue with them.
I mean, sometimes they say things to me.
I know that they're pissed off.
So what do you do? What do you say? Well, I'm sympathetic to that, to their being pissed off.
Do you let them know? Well, I don't know.
What do you mean you don't know? Do you tell them? Do you tell them they're right? Do you tell them they're right in front of the men? No.
Well, where is that? Well, I don't want to go around scolding people all the time.
What do you think they do tell from the look on your face that you secretly agree with them? Well, I don't know.
Jonas Mieck is right.
He's this very sensitive person.
He made this film with these women.
He makes all these diary films.
And he makes this long, long film with all these men, you know, all these male filmmakers and male critics, you know, doing all these neat things.
And all these women in his film are like just posing, sitting around and looking pretty, you know.
And I found out, you know, somebody told me that those same women, they were not like that at all.
He was just seeing them that way.
They were interesting people and as strong people as the men in his film.
But he didn't pay any attention to that because basically he's a sexist.
So, you know, he's very sensitive to the men.
But the women, he just makes into these cutouts.
Well, in that Lithuania film, I mean, he shows...
His mother, right? Well, he shows Annette Michelson.
I mean, what does he call her? Saint Annette.
I mean, he turns her into something else.
I don't think anyone could get away with objectifying Annette Michelson.
I'll say that for her.
Well, I wouldn't like to try.
Good.
I mean, you know, I...
You haven't given me one good example, you know.
A good example of what? Of someone...
You haven't even given me one good reason that...
All your reasons are wrong, right? All your reasons just remind me of something someone else has said that I see their piggy films and listen to them talk about being personal and sensitive and artistic and they're just completely insensitive to the way that they treat their women.
Like Andy Noren making this diary film, just like this long list of all the women that he's fought.
So what? It's a long list of all the women that he's fought.
That's what it is.
And any woman seeing that film, you know, is going to relate to it that way.
I don't know how men relate to it.
Don't you think it's beautiful? Beautiful film.
Well, doesn't that count for something? It's wasted.
I mean, it's...
It's...
It's...
Scott Bartlett, you know, that film lug making.
Yeah.
That is just a classic example.
You think that's a beautiful film? Well, a lot of people do.
I think it's too sentimental for me, but I don't like all that sort of focus.
I'm fucking with my life and you think it's funny.
You say, oh, well, maybe I'll just go play with somebody else, right? She won't cooperate.
I'll make a film about somebody else and fuck with them a little bit.
Boy.
I don't know.
Bruce was played by Chuck Klein -Hens.
That's me.
Shirley is played by Joanne Eamon.
That's me.
And this was worked out from some ideas that originally came from Julia Lassage.
I'm going to make a film.
I thought I was going to make a film.
It would be a personal film.
It would...
Part of it would show our relationship.
Why? Well, I'm making a personal film and I think that...
And why are you doing it at this particular time? What do you mean, this particular time? Well, I just think it's very interesting that at this particular time when we're having a lot of trouble in our relationship, you decided that you want to make a personal film and film it.
Well, I just finished one film and I'm starting another one and this one is a personal film.
I don't think that's...
I mean, if I finished the other film three months ago, then I would have started this film three months ago.
So it has nothing to do with the fact that our relationship is really in trouble now? Well, we've been fighting a lot, but yeah, no, this doesn't have anything to do with them.
How can you say it has nothing to do with it? I mean, you've always been interested in my films before.
Everything that I've been doing, you've been...
I mean, you've given me a lot of my best ideas.
And you have lots of really good ideas.
So you think I should help you make this film about our relationship? Well, how many things that I do are you interested in? Well, like what? You come to my rugby games? No.
No, no, I promised.
I...
But the truth is you're not interested in it.
So I'm supposed to participate and be interested and really help you along, you know, and I'll do all this stuff for you and your films and your art.
Be in your films.
You know, be this object.
Just say, oh, just use me, use me.
Well, you've been...
I mean, you were in some of my other films.
I mean, you never objected before.
So, well, maybe I'm just getting a little uncomfortable about it, you know.
I think that's a lot of what this whole problem that we're having in our relationship is about, right? And just because you're so creative, you know, and wonderful, that that makes you more attractive than other men, right? But actually, it just makes you exploit me more.
You weren't disturbed by certain things in that film? The soft focus, I thought that was real kind of drippy.
You weren't disturbed by the fact that this film is supposedly about lovemaking, right? Like a relationship, like something that happens between two people.
And there's only one person in the film, right? And all she's doing is like panting and moaning at something that he's doing that you don't even know, right? You don't think that's a little strange? Yeah, I guess it's a little...
Now, why did he make that film? Well, it's a male fantasy.
Where is he coming from? Okay, it's a male fantasy.
I'll give you that.
And this is going to be the true picture, right? No fantasies, no idealisms, no sort of manipulations, no little, your own individual version of what's really going on.
Oh, yeah, but sure.
When I see those films that these people make, you know, and they call them personal films, and I mean, they're the most political films I've seen, these personal films, you know.
