WEBVTT

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Why are you taping this?

2
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Well, let me adjust this mic here.

3
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What are you doing?

4
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I was just adjusting it.

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Well, I'm...

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Okay, the red button.

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Lights off.

8
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Object, that's right!

9
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You're making women into objects, that's it!

10
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Come on!

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Come on!

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Jane Bracken said the same thing.

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When?

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In art forums, she said, you are using me in your films.

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That's what she said to Bracken.

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Yeah, but you know...

17
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And she wanted to put up with it.

18
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Well, I don't have to put up with it.

19
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I don't think...

20
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Well, she must have gotten something out of that too.

21
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I mean, I don't know.

22
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The problem is, I think the problem with you male filmmakers,

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is all these paintings that you do,

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you think that you're artists, right?

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And you see all these, you go and see all these paintings,

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you know, all these women sort of lying around, you know.

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And you say, oh, well, I'm not going to do that.

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I want to make art films, I'll make art films about women lying around.

30
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Like, god...

31
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I mean, Lourde makes a film about a hallway, right?

32
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And he sticks a nude in there.

33
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Now where did he get her?

34
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She didn't come down the hall, you know.

35
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She came from out of some painting somewhere.

36
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It's just making...

37
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Well, then what should I film?

38
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If you want to make a film about a relationship,

39
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why don't you make it about your relationship with your friend Andrew?

40
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You're close to him.

41
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Yeah, but I'm not as close as I am to you.

42
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Well, but he's a man.

43
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I think it'd be a lot more interesting.

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45
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Well, why don't you make a film about, you know, sexism at work?

46
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Hmm.

47
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In relationship with people there.

48
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Well, you...

49
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Why, that might do something.

50
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I'd get a lot of trouble.

51
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Yeah, right, you might.

52
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Those guys, I mean, you think that I have a bad attitude.

53
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What about those guys, huh?

54
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Yeah, well, you're not doing anything to change your attitude.

55
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You just sit there and, you know, take it all in.

56
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You don't even argue with them.

57
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Well, I don't know.

58
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I mean, some of the women there argue with them.

59
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I mean, sometimes they say things to me.

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I know that they're pissed off.

61
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So what do you do?

62
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What do you say?

63
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Well, I'm sympathetic to that, to their being pissed off.

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Do you let them know?

65
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Well, I don't know.

66
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What do you mean you don't know?

67
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Do you tell them? Do you tell them they're right?

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Do you tell them they're right in front of the men?

69
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No.

70
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Well, where is that?

71
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Well, I don't want to go around scolding people all the time.

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What do you think they do tell from the look on your face that you secretly agree with them?

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Well, I don't know.

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Jonas Mieck is right.

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He's this very sensitive person.

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He made this film with these women.

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He makes all these diary films.

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And he makes this long, long film with all these men, you know, all these male filmmakers and male critics, you know, doing all these neat things.

79
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And all these women in his film are like just posing, sitting around and looking pretty, you know.

80
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And I found out, you know, somebody told me that those same women, they were not like that at all.

81
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He was just seeing them that way.

82
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They were interesting people and as strong people as the men in his film.

83
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But he didn't pay any attention to that because basically he's a sexist.

84
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So, you know, he's very sensitive to the men.

85
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But the women, he just makes into these cutouts.

86
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Well, in that Lithuania film, I mean, he shows...

87
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His mother, right?

88
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Well, he shows Annette Michelson.

89
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I mean, what does he call her?

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Saint Annette.

91
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I mean, he turns her into something else.

92
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I don't think anyone could get away with objectifying Annette Michelson.

93
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I'll say that for her.

94
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Well, I wouldn't like to try.

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Good.

96
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I mean, you know, I...

97
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You haven't given me one good example, you know.

98
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A good example of what?

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Of someone...

100
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You haven't even given me one good reason that...

101
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All your reasons are wrong, right?

102
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All your reasons just remind me of something someone else has said that

103
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I see their piggy films and listen to them talk about being personal and sensitive and artistic

104
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and they're just completely insensitive to the way that they treat their women.

105
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Like Andy Noren making this diary film, just like this long list of all the women that he's fought.

106
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So what? It's a long list of all the women that he's fought.

107
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That's what it is.

108
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And any woman seeing that film, you know, is going to relate to it that way.

109
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I don't know how men relate to it.

110
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Don't you think it's beautiful?

111
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Beautiful film.

112
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Well, doesn't that count for something?

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114
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It's wasted.

115
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I mean, it's...

116
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It's...

117
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It's...

118
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Scott Bartlett, you know, that film lug making.

119
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Yeah.

120
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That is just a classic example.

121
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You think that's a beautiful film?

122
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Well, a lot of people do.

123
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I think it's too sentimental for me, but I don't like all that sort of focus.

124
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I'm fucking with my life and you think it's funny.

125
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You say, oh, well, maybe I'll just go play with somebody else, right?

126
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She won't cooperate.

127
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I'll make a film about somebody else and fuck with them a little bit.

128
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Boy.

129
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I don't know.

130
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Bruce was played by Chuck Klein-Hens.

131
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That's me.

132
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Shirley is played by Joanne Eamon.

133
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That's me.

134
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And this was worked out from some ideas that originally came from Julia Lassage.

135
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I'm going to make a film.

136
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I thought I was going to make a film.

137
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It would be a personal film.

138
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It would...

139
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Part of it would show our relationship.

140
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Why?

141
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Well, I'm making a personal film and I think that...

142
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And why are you doing it at this particular time?

143
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What do you mean, this particular time?

144
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Well, I just think it's very interesting that at this particular time when we're having a lot of trouble in our relationship,

145
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you decided that you want to make a personal film and film it.

146
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Well, I just finished one film and I'm starting another one and this one is a personal film.

147
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I don't think that's...

148
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I mean, if I finished the other film three months ago, then I would have started this film three months ago.

149
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So it has nothing to do with the fact that our relationship is really in trouble now?

150
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Well, we've been fighting a lot, but yeah, no, this doesn't have anything to do with them.

151
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How can you say it has nothing to do with it?

152
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I mean, you've always been interested in my films before.

153
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Everything that I've been doing, you've been...

154
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I mean, you've given me a lot of my best ideas.

155
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And you have lots of really good ideas.

156
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So you think I should help you make this film about our relationship?

157
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Well, how many things that I do are you interested in?

158
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Well, like what?

159
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You come to my rugby games? No.

160
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No, no, I promised.

161
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I...

162
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But the truth is you're not interested in it.

163
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So I'm supposed to participate and be interested and really help you along, you know, and I'll do all this stuff for you and your films and your art.

164
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Be in your films.

165
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You know, be this object.

166
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Just say, oh, just use me, use me.

167
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Well, you've been...

168
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I mean, you were in some of my other films.

169
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I mean, you never objected before.

170
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So, well, maybe I'm just getting a little uncomfortable about it, you know.

171
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I think that's a lot of what this whole problem that we're having in our relationship is about, right?

172
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And just because you're so creative, you know, and wonderful, that that makes you more attractive than other men, right?

173
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But actually, it just makes you exploit me more.

174
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You weren't disturbed by certain things in that film?

175
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The soft focus, I thought that was real kind of drippy.

176
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You weren't disturbed by the fact that this film is supposedly about lovemaking, right?

177
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Like a relationship, like something that happens between two people.

178
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And there's only one person in the film, right?

179
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And all she's doing is like panting and moaning at something that he's doing that you don't even know, right?

180
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You don't think that's a little strange?

181
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Yeah, I guess it's a little...

182
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Now, why did he make that film?

183
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Well, it's a male fantasy.

184
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Where is he coming from?

185
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Okay, it's a male fantasy. I'll give you that.

186
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And this is going to be the true picture, right?

187
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No fantasies, no idealisms, no sort of manipulations,

188
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no little, your own individual version of what's really going on.

189
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Oh, yeah, but sure.

190
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When I see those films that these people make, you know, and they call them personal films,

191
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and I mean, they're the most political films I've seen, these personal films, you know.