José Inter #2 8/12/89

Okay.

Do I need to read it? Jose, interview number two, scene one, take one.

Roll one.

Roll one.

Okay, have a seat.

Okay, can you talk about that? Oh, about art being political, right.

Okay, the reason I say that art is political because everything that is painted has got to do with the environment, politics, or what's happening in the community.

So like in the case of the Cicepuede mural, it was at the time when the farm workers were going through the strikes.

They were having trouble with pesticides.

The children were being treated for eating stuff that was contaminated with chemicals.

So at that time, the organization was boycotting lettuce.

They probably still are now, but at that time especially, they were boycotting lettuce and grapes.

And that was the time when the government, despite the boycott, they were buying grapes, you know.

In other words, trying to break the thing about the boycott.

So when we were going to do the mural there, it was done in a couple of weeks, you know.

It happened that some of the farm workers were in town for a meeting.

So they said, if you're going to paint something, why don't you paint something to support our because we're going to be in the neighborhood, you know, pressing out leaflets, and it will help as part of a campaign or, you know, for propaganda purposes.

So that was the case of that mural.

It came about because the time the things were happening and also the farm workers were in the area organizing people to boycott the products, you know, from the grapevines from California.

Okay, good.

We'll be ready to hit the broadcast news.

Okay.

Wait until I kill you.

Okay.

Jose, two, scene one, take one, take two, roll one.

All art is...

Yeah, go ahead and let...

Actually say it to Susan.

Yeah, you can tell me.

When Susan tells you, okay.

All right, anytime.

All art is political.

It's beginning from even the Renaissance because when De Vinci was doing the 16th Chapel, whatever he was painting, art to support the pope.

When the French painter, Chardon, whatever his name was, was doing art, even though it seemed like it wasn't political, you know, he would paint bread, food, it was in the middle of the French Revolution that he did that, you know, and there was people who were fighting, you know, for crumbs, you know, so when he painted bread and crumbs and food, it was something that the people didn't have, you know, so even still life would be considered political.

And even now, you know, even if they paint the ocean, it's political because what happened at this thing in Alaska, you know, the Exxon and oil companies are involved in it.

And to say that painting the ocean is not political is not understanding what art really is, you know, because there is no such thing as art for art's sake in my book.

Good, very good.

A little higher.

Okay, so.

Okay, scene two, take two, roll one.

Okay, any time.

The mural at the Chicago Park District workers' room, as we call it, you know, or labor room, they call it, or the tool room, where we paint the mural, deals with the people working in the park.

So it includes women, men, black and white.

And of course, the reason it's important because a lot of the workers participate in doing it, well, not a lot of them, but at least six or seven, you know, and the rest of them participated in either criticizing it or supporting it, you know, some liked it, some didn't, you know.

Some said that there should be more women, and some said that in the first place they didn't have enough women working there.

In reality, they don't, you know, in landscaping, you know.

And we did it during the wintertime, you know, during dinner time, in the afternoons, or whenever it was snowing hard, you know, we didn't have nothing else to do.

Well, we had a lot to do, you know, but we took time to do it anyway.

Okay, scene three, take one, roll one.

Okay, whenever you're ready.

The murals in this community call for different themes for the simple reason that, like in Chicago, there's different ethnic groups.

If you're the one in the black community, it will call for something different, let's say in a Polish community, you know.

You know, there are people who are working or members of the working class, that doesn't mean that their backgrounds are the same, you know.

So it calls for different things and perhaps different colors.

For instance, there was one done at McDonald's on Valmont and Poleski, which dealt with the Polish culture, and it has a lot of costumes that the Polish people wear, talks about Polish struggles.

In the Mexican neighborhood, there's different things, such as the struggle with the farm workers, the demonstrations against the immigration.

So of course it calls for a different theme, like the mural, it was dealing with the farm workers and the community.

And in case of the one on 28th and Ridgeway, which is called We Will Stop the Storm, it deals with the community, but in the community itself, there's different ethnic backgrounds.

There's black, there's a few Polish, and then there's a few Arabs, you know, which you don't have in some areas, but there you have them.

So in talking with the people there, you know, the Arabs have a lot to say, you know, especially what was going on in the Middle East.

And the Mexicans have a lot to say, what was going on with the immigration.

And then of course the Polish have a lot to say because they claim that at one time it was an old white neighborhood and that now it changed, you know.

So of course the theme there would completely be something to work with in that community.

So in doing that, we tell them, you know, We Will Stop the Storm.

And what storm we're talking about is the storm that they mentioned, you know, like the storm in the Middle East where they're being brutalized by the Zionists, the storm here in Chicago where they're being brutalized by the immigration, or we have some quotes there by people like Bapa Vakan who had to leave the country because his life was in danger, and his life was in danger because he's a revolutionary.

So of course the theme completely has got to change.

It can't be the same in all the neighborhoods.

So it shows a dove that looks like a thunderbird and also might look like an eagle.

But in the background there's a storm that the people have talked about.

And instead of going about doing a lot of figures, you know, doing a lot of pyramids or doing a lot of either Egyptian or Mexican pyramids, we use symbols, you know.

So what we use was the storm as the problem that they were having, which would include all the people, you know.

We didn't have to put pictures of the immigration, pictures of the Zionists being up on the air with people, or the immigration brutalizing the newly arrived.

So we use the storm as a symbol for all those things that are happening.

And also we showed a picture of a boy and a girl, one on each side.

One of them being that the girl is stepping on a swastika, you know, which still symbolizes racism.

And in some of the neighborhoods that we go to now, there are swastikas that are pretty well left alone, meaning that maybe there's a lot of people who are sympathetic to the way some people think, you know, especially like the right wing, because they don't want blacks moving in.

So the theme was we will stop the storm.

And the storm was the problem that these people were having, you know, and the problems that minorities and other people who don't adhere to the system have, you know.

That was really good.

Very good.

Okay, now I am.

Go ahead.

But when you put it in, it should already be open.

Yeah, okay.

Now let me roll.

Okay.

Okay, scene four, take one, roll two.

Okay, whenever you're ready.

Okay, we were working at this factory, National Video, doing TV tubes, you know.

Like at that time, that was about the only factory doing TV tubes.

But we wanted to get another union in there.

So in order to get another union there, we had to do organizing, you know, get other people.

So we had this group called PGR.

We took it from the song of who was singing it, called People Get Ready.

Okay, so we called it PGR, and the paper was called People Get Ready.

So basically it was mostly in writing, like an informative letter, you know, no illustrations.

So I started doing the illustrations for the People Get Ready pamphlet.

It was actually a pamphlet.

And we would discuss cartoons and this and that, and different things happening.

And we would mostly discuss what was going on in the factory and how the organizing was going along.

So it was during that time that I met this other Chicago artist who was already doing a lot of artwork, you know.

And he was a very famous artist, I would say, whose name is John Weber.

And from then on, we went to Indiana.

I think it was Gary, Indiana, where they had a meeting dealing with miners, you know, that had gone on strike in one of the mines, I forgot where.

And they were discussing the situation there.

And we were discussing the situation in the city.

So eventually, by discussing with the miners, and which were mostly from that particular area in the south, I forgot which part of the south it was, John and me were discussing this thing with the people there.

It happened that John had got some space to do a mural.

So he asked me if I would be interested in learning the technique.

So I agreed to work with him.

So we went in there, and that's when we started doing the mural.

It took close to a year to do it because we would work and then do other stuff on the outside.

He had other stuff to do.

And plus, I was working, so I had to do it whenever I had time, you know, Saturdays, Sundays, or in the afternoons.

As it turned out, it turned out to be pretty good because we could make changes in the mural.

And we were at liberty to express ourselves more politically because the people who ran the United Electrical Workers had been involved in class struggles many years ago in the 30s, during the McCarthy era.

A lot of them had gotten in trouble, you know.

And a lot of them were still around.

And of course, you know, we discussed things with them.

And they agreed on certain things.

They said, let's go to the factory and do sketches of the workers as they're working, which John did.

I couldn't go that day, but John did some sketches.

But then he brought them back, and then we put some sketches on the wall.

I had some sketches that I had done, sort of most of the sketches about the Klan, the reactionary forces.

And at that time, it included also the thing that happened in Chile, because the mural was painted in 73, around 73.

So we included different things dealing with the situation in Chile.

But also, the stronger points were made about the workers, you know.

And artists who paint are not necessarily, you know, from the elite.

They come also from the working class, but not just the working class, the advanced working class, because we can't be all together because there are workers who are backward, you know.

Or they might have different kinds of politics.

So I would say there's a group of workers that even though they work, they're advanced and know about politics.

They know about art.

They know about the situations that surround them, you know.

So me and many other painters who come from the working class do this work.

We want to do it well, and we learn from other people, you know, from the Mexican masters, the Queiros and the rest of them, from the artists that are here, too, you know.

They come from Mexico, they come from Europe, or other artists who are doing mural work, and all of them are doing political work.

None of the murals are just painted for the hell of it, you know.

All of them have to deal with specific situations.

And like we have said before, maybe some, according to the 21st century, you know, people, other people will learn from us too, and they say, well, at least they contributed not only to the art community, but to the working class, you know, to the working class movement.

Because working people don't just work, go to the fair, and come back, you know, they do a lot of things.

They read politics, they discuss politics, you know.

In my case, I discuss politics and also do art.

Go ahead.

That was very good.

That was really tight.

Okay.

We could, let me just do something here quick.

I'm a little tighter, so let me just move this up a tiny bit.

Does that mean Susan, do I have to adjust? Maybe you have to adjust just a tiny bit down, Susan.

Okay, down? Yeah.

Well, just wait and see if the needle, where the needle is.

Okay.

I tried that double thing.

It's really just kind of...

It is, it is.

That's how you, yeah, we're almost there.

Okay, scene five, take one, roll two.

Like Carlos Cortez, Ray Vasquez, and me and the other artists, and myself, we tend to say that we're mostly cultural workers, you know, because artists seem to have an aloof look to some people, you know.

They say, you're an artist, you must have a big studio, you must live in a fancy place, you know, or you must have some special talent, you know, which we don't see it as that.

We don't see it as a special talent or whatever, you know.

We see it as something we're doing not only to educate ourselves, but to educate also the community.

Like when we're painting, we're artists.

People see us, they say, that's the artist, or that's a muralist, or like the kids in the neighborhood, some people say, that's a mural man.

But in that situation, they say mural because we're close to the mural, we're doing artwork.

But if I'm at work, a lot of people don't see me, you know, as an artist, they see me as somebody doing a job, you know.

So if we have to do a clean -up job, then I'm going to say, where's the artist, or where's the mural man, they say, where's the garbage man, so over there I'm known as a garbage man.

And if I'm close to a wall painting, I'm known as the mural man or an artist.

Depends on what kind of brush I got.

If I got a brush in my hand painting, I'm an artist, but if I'm picking up brushes we just cut, you know, from the bushes, then I'm a garbage man, there you go.

But basically, we are people who, we are cultural workers.

I mean, I would prefer that, as other artists prefer it.

But there's nothing wrong with people who want to be called artists, or whatever, you know.

It's all right with me, just that I myself am more comfortable being a cultural worker, like Cortez, or like Marco Ray, or like many, many other artists.

Okay, scene six, take one, roll two.

Okay, mural painting has been around for many years.

When the cavemen were doing it, then later on people would say that these people were backwards, that they were dumb, that they were like animals, and this and that.

And just recently, they've been saying that they weren't as dumb as they think, you know, because they were using shading, and they were using different techniques.

Some do better work than some of the artists I know.

Anyway, I believe that this type of art, as they were doing it, they were doing it for a purpose.

They weren't doing it just to decorate the walls.

We are not doing it just to decorate the walls.

So I figure that along the way, you know, even into the 21st century, even if the murals do deteriorate to some extent, they will say, well, these people that were doing it, just like they were saying about the cavemen, weren't dumb.

They knew what was going on, and they took politics, and then they formed their own ideas.

And then, even though they're not here, the mural serves as something that was hurled at them, so they could see it and try to figure out and try to understand the situations that were happening then.

And they will say, well, these people really meant business.

They weren't just decorators.

They were involved in politics.

They were concerned with what was going on around them, you know, what was going on in Central America.

Hopefully, by that time in the future, when people are looking at it, things will be different, that the people in Central America won't have the death squads, or they won't have, you know, companies like the United Fruit Company, or foreign investors dictating the way they should live, you know.

And we hope that when they look at our murals, that people have documented, they will say, well, these people had the right idea, you know.

We should continue to record this prosperity or whatever they have.

Then they will continue to do murals, public art, in other words, so that many people can always see it, always see it, you know.

Just as people know about the caves, they will know about our murals in the 20th century.

What are the best memories of the U .S., the first time you came to the U .S., and what you thought? It's just big.

Big cars, big people, big houses.

And how does that contrast with what you remember from Thailand? Well, I guess the main contrast would be that I remember Thailand as always being very crowded and very hot.

So there's just so much open space here, even though people might not think so.

A lot of green, too, because since I lived in the city in Thailand, it was just mainly concrete, very few trees and grass, except outside of the city.

So, yeah, just seeing a lot of green around.

What, when you were a teenager in Thailand, how did teenagers spend their time? And how did children, well, teenagers, what did teenagers do? Not much.

Sometimes they'll just go out to a movie or go bowling, perhaps.

They might get together with friends.

There really wasn't much that I remember doing.

Would boys and girls do activities together? Yeah.

Although I guess Thai girls are more shy in that way.

You know, you'll find girls together a lot, and boys together a lot.

And when they get into groups, they still tend to be with their own gender, their own sex.

Were you ever told as a child, either implicitly or directly, about how you should behave as a girl? Oh, yes.

How should a Thai girl behave? Very properly.

Not wear anything revealing, for example, or tight.

Be very ladylike in behavior.

Not say any swear words.

Never look at a man in the eye that he might interpret as being a come -on or something.

Yeah.

Just being very proper.

What kind of clothes did Thai girls wear? They're pretty much pretty modern now.

You'll find a lot of jeans around.

Skirts.

Though mini skirts weren't really that popular when I was there.

I mean, whereas it was popular everywhere else, some girls would still wear skirts down to their knees, for example.

And only when you went to bars or something, then it was seen as being not ladylike.

If you wore a mini skirt.

Sort of risque or something.

What are Thai attitudes towards studying? What kind of attitudes did you grow up with about education? That you had to work hard.

You always had to get the best grades you could.

And back in those days, I know they still had what you call physical discipline.

They would hit your hand with a roller or something of the sort if you misbehaved.

I don't know if they still do that now.

Did you have both men and women as teachers? Yeah.

Both men and women.

And what kind of school did you go to? Well, I remember a kindergarten school, which was a co -ed school.

But I really had very vague memories of it.

And then when I was a teenager, I went to an international school.

So you went with children from all over the world? Well, there were mostly orientals.

There were some Americans there.

A few British people.

What language was the language of instruction? English.

Is it common for students to learn a language other than Thai? Usually they have a choice of English or French.

Most people are going to take English.

Do people get to be pretty good at speaking English? Not really.

It's like here in high school when people learn Spanish and you really can't say much after four years of Spanish or French or whatever.

They have very Thai accents.

That's one thing about Thai is when they learn another language, it's very hard for them to get rid of their accent.

You know right away if you're talking to somebody that this person is Thai because of the accent they have.

Most of them never really get rid of it no matter how long they live in the country.

What are some of the ethnic minorities in Thailand? Indians, a lot of Indians.

Chinese, or Thais are descended from Chinese.

There are still a lot of very Chinese families who are mostly merchants.

But they stick pretty much to the old ways of China.

And then the Indians are also usually merchants, jewelers, or they sell clothes or things like that.

What kind of attitudes do people in Thailand have about, especially about Indians or about the Chinese? They tend to look down on them.

If for example a real Thai family, a family considered itself to be really Thai and work with good background, they wouldn't want their children to marry somebody from a Chinese background for example or an Indian background.

And how does a family consider themselves to be really Thai? How are you, how is that determined if most Thais are Chinese? Well if they've been in Thailand long enough and they have good positions, say upper middle class or upper class, they consider themselves to be Thai.

Are most Thais Buddhist? Yes.

And how does, do most people practice Buddhism? I would say so.

Religion is really strong in the country.

Most Thais I know, though there might be some changes nowadays, but most Thais would pray, go to temple and so on.

How does Buddhism shape people's values? I don't know that it shapes them that much.

They preach it a lot.

For example this ethic about you should kill anything or anyone, any animal that is.

But people kill each other all the time.

There's a lot of crime in Thailand.

And I guess maybe in the way we live they have a little bit of a fecundistic attitude.

Just that kind of philosophical attitude about whatever happens will happen.

Although there are exceptions with the modern world and all that.

How do people choose careers? Do people continue? For example, if the parents, the father is a mechanic, do the children or the sons become mechanics? Or if the parents have gone to college, do they assume that the children will go to college? Not necessarily, although it might happen that way.

What you will find a lot of is that the parents might not have gone to college, but then the kids might.

Or on the other hand, they might just go into the father's business, whatever his business is.

It depends how they see it themselves, if it's easier to just do what the father's doing.

How's the family structure? Can you describe that? What do you mean by that? In general, for example in this country, we live in nuclear families.

And then families tend to, the children live apart from the parents.

And people tend to live separately.

No, it's an extended family.

A lot of times the grandparents will live with the children.

And for example, what usually happens is that when a child gets married, they will move into the wife's home and live with the parents and grandparents.

So the husband will move to the wife's home? It could be the other way around also, but a lot of times that's the way it is.

So they don't move out by themselves? If they can afford to, they will.

But normally, for example, I'm just thinking of parents who might have some sort of business, a clothing business or a jewelry business and all that.

And the new son -in -law will probably go into his wife's family's business.

Can you help out there? Hmm.

I wanted to ask about that.

Well, how is wealth distributed in the country? Is there a big middle class or are there...? There's a big middle class, a pretty big lower class.

There's an upper class, but they're not too obvious because when you go into any part of Thailand, you'll see a lot of poverty.

You'll see some mansions too, for example.

I guess the impression would be that it's a pretty poor country, which it is.

And when people migrate, what kinds of things do you think make people migrate? For example, the Thais who come to the U .S., how do they get here and why? Well, usually because they think they can earn a better living here.

I know a lot of doctors come here, doctors and nurses.

And they just probably think they can earn more money here and then some of them might move back to Thailand once they think they've made enough money.

There are a lot of students who come and think they can get a better education here and so they'll probably get a better job back in Thailand.

Let's try to have a friend who came here, who's Thai, who just assumes that he'll stay here and work for a while and make a sort of lump of money and then go back and build a house and start a business with that money.

Yeah, a lot of people tend to do that.

Some people who come here with small children or who have children while they're here might think twice about going back to Thailand because they think their children are now very Americanized and all that and might not be happy in Thailand.

I know a lot of people who do eventually go back because they miss it.

They have relatives back there and friends.

What happens when people do move here and their children grow up here? How are the children different than traditional Thai children would be? Well, they're very American.

I don't think they feel so strongly, so Thai, even though their parents might keep up their traditions.

They probably would just settle down here or grow up in Meri and die here.

If you say you're in Thailand, you're maybe going to go back next summer and visit, and someone comes up to you and says, well, I know that you're living in the United States and I'm thinking about going there.

What kind of advice would you give to someone planning to come here to kind of help them with culture shock or prepare them for what they'll find here? What kind of advice? Well, I guess just to be open -minded because things are very different here.

I don't know.

Well, it's more of, there's more isolation here.

People might not be as friendly as compared to Thailand and they'll be among strangers.

So just keep it to yourselves for that, I guess.

That was actually exactly the crisis that this friend of mine was having.

He'd been here about six months by now.

He felt really isolated, even though he was sort of living with his wife and other Thai people.

How do you, living in the U .S.

now and sort of being a more world citizen than a Thai or U .S.

citizen, do you ever feel like you have any need to sort of be very Thai or to celebrate Thai holidays or do things like that? Well, no.

I'm not really religious.

So, even though some people, I've known people who have tried to get me to go to the temple, for example, and I don't really go unless I'm forced to in a way, but the kind of upbringing I've had, you know, with my parents being very traditionally Thai, there are a lot of things that still are in the back of my mind.

For example, this own religious tradition of not pointing, of not having people point their feet at you, or, you know, when people raise their legs, put them on the table, and then it just so happens that their feet are pointing at you.

Sometimes I still get a kind of shock about that, and I think, well, this is America and they don't think about it, so I try to forget about it.

There's all sorts of things like that.

And then another thing is when you have to show respect to your elders, and for example, in Thailand, if you're passing in front of somebody who's older than you, you would normally bend your head, so that your head will be at the same level or lower than the older person's.

And sometimes I find myself doing that, even though I don't have to.

It's just something that's ingrained in me.

It's just automatic.

What is the belief about your feet pointing at you? Is it disrespectful? It comes from the religious belief that the head is the most important part of the body, so that if something is being pointed at you, then it shows disrespect, a complete disregard of you as another Buddhist person.

And why is it that you said you can't look boys in the face, or the girls aren't supposed to look? In the eyes? Well, I mean they can, but not in any way that would be considered sexual.

So that's not staring at them too long or something like that.

Is that from the religion pretty much? Is that more from just kind of...

What are the ideas of good behavior? I guess they're linked.

I guess ideas of good behavior, although in the Buddhist religion, as in many other religions, the woman is supposed to be looked on as simple.

Just from the beginning? Pretty much, because the story is that when Gotama Buddha was under this tree and trying to, well, becoming enlightened, so to speak, and what we call the equivalent of the devil brought some scantily clad women down to try to tempt him away from becoming enlightened.

So women are also seen in that sense.

As temptation.

As temptation, yeah.

Women get a bad rap in their culture.

Yes, they do, in most cultures.

Mm -hmm.

Hmm, pods for a second.

What do you think is the...if you have to sort of divide your opinions about Thailand into...

Like, what do you think is a really wonderful thing about Thai culture, and what do you think for you is really a problem in Thai culture? What would you say? Okay, I think the good thing about Thai culture, and this applies to Hispanic culture too, is that the family is a very strong unit.

And you respect your elders, and they're always there for you.

It's just a very strong sense of family.

And the bad thing, I guess, would be that a lot of Thais I know are very narrow -minded, and they gossip a lot.

It's a close -minded society.

So that if, say, a woman is seeing another man instead of her husband, having an affair on the side, there's this grapevine that would be like, perhaps, what you would call here, office gossip, the way rumors spread.

But in this case, it would be pretty much all over the city.

If, at least if you're middle class or upper, people know you, know who you are.

And they will just really criticize you.

So you constantly have to watch out.

So there's not too much of...I mean, here there's a sense that the individual has a lot of autonomy.

And as long as you're an individual, you can sort of have a right to privacy.

And so Thais don't really feel that you have a right to privacy so much, or is that...? I don't think they even think of it in that way.

They just like to criticize.

And what about, compared with the Thai educational system, if a child were to come here after going to school in Thailand, what would be some sort of immediate differences that they would run into in an American classroom? It might be difficult for them to understand.

It's probably more relaxed here, in a way.

Because in the Thai culture, and it's kind of similar to Japanese culture also, there's a lot of respect for the teacher.

You wouldn't do a lot of things that you would do here, like speak out of turn, or stare the teacher down, or talk back to the teacher.

So I guess in that sense.

Is it difficult for Thai students to speak out in class and even answer questions? They'll answer questions.

But they know they'll get into trouble if they can't answer a question, if they haven't done their homework, for example.

There's quite a big thing about discipline in the school.

How is it? A lot of Thai learning, is it sort of wrote from the textbook, or are Thais encouraged to kind of think on their own, and take a problem and figure out ways of solving it? I guess the thinking on their own comes at the university level.

Otherwise in elementary and high school there's a lot of road learning.

And what would you, living in the US, what would you say, just from what you observed here, what are the things you like best about this culture, and what are the things you like least? This culture? Yeah.

I like the fact that, as you said before, there's a lot of autonomy in this culture.

That you can pretty much do what you want, and that if you really want to you can always find work, or find some way to support yourself.

And the thing I like least is this isolationism, that because you are allowed to do, to be by yourself, you don't have that much of a support system like you would in Thailand.

How is the social life different between here and Thailand? Social life? Well in Thailand you're not really allowed to date until you're a certain age.

You can go out in groups if you're a teenager, but I guess until you go into the university you don't really date anyone in particular.

It's pretty formal as far as I remember.

If you want to go out with somebody seriously, then there's all this ritual of meeting the parents, and making sure the parents like you, for example, and getting to know the other person's background, and seeing if they're compatible, because there's still arranged marriages in Thailand, not so much anymore, but there's still some.

Those are like Hispanic culture too, the parents are really important in living there.

Actually there's some progressive points about social life now, because I read recently that there's a club for example for women, an exclusive club where women go to be entertained by men who dance with them, who are the kind of escorts which they don't have here in the States as far as I know.

And it's a fancy club, it's not like a strip joint or anything like that.

Other than that, in general Thai society still frowns on any woman who behaves loosely so to speak.

Would it be unusual for a woman to live on her own in Thailand? I think it's accepted now, it's not that common yet.

I know some people who do, but it's not that common.

That a woman would work and support herself and live on her own? Yeah, usually they just, whether they're men or women, they live with their families until they get married.

And do people have important friendships outside their family? Friendships? Yeah, usually it's people that they've grown up with, gone to school with, maybe friendships from work.

But again, the background is their families are considered.

Kind of the center, oh the friends' background.

I see.

Do you know much about life in rural Thailand or not so much? Not so much.

Can you describe your family just sort of quickly? I think your mother was from a noble family from the north and your father was more of a merchant.

Were either of your parents Chinese? My father was.

Does he speak Chinese? He speaks some Chinese.

A lot of Chinese Thais that I've met speak Chinese, speak Cantonese.

I never learned.

I don't know, my grandmother, when she was alive, my paternal grandmother, she spoke some Chinese.

Sometimes she would speak Chinese to my father, but I never really knew what they were talking about.

Are there different dialects of Thai? Any differences in Thai? Slight differences.

So not that much.

Can you tell what part of the country someone is from by accent? Accent and some vocabulary.

And what can you describe as your average diet? What do you eat in a day? Rice, mainly.

A lot of Thais, sometimes now the more modern ones, eat bread and milk for breakfast.

But most Thais I think still eat a kind of rice soup with some kind of meat in the mornings and maybe also at lunch.

And otherwise there are noodles.

But a dinner would be rice with lots of other dishes.

One vegetable dish, one meat dish, one kind of soup dish.

That's about it, meat, vegetables and soup.

And then dessert.

Usually sweet, Thais have a sweet tooth.

I was thinking about that actually, I thought that maybe it's, when we were eating brownies I was thinking of all those like real sweet like coconut desserts.

That's why she likes chocolate.

Oh, so almost every meal has rice in it.

Actually I don't know what we would ever do without rice.

Since we don't really grow potatoes there.

What about...

Well, I think that's about it.

Do you have anything you want to say about Thailand in general? Can you think of anything you'd...

Well, the only impression that I still remember, and that's why I don't like to live there, is that it's so hot.

In the north it's a little better because since it's up north it's in mountains it can get cool.

But in Bangkok it's just hot all year round.

And then of course when it rains there's a rainy season.

And then there are floods also, so I think they're trying to do something about that.

But otherwise it's just real hot.

And most businesses and modern homes have air conditioning.

And cars too.

But otherwise if you have to walk on the street or you get onto a bus that's not air conditioned, then it can be really hot.

It's like Chicago in the summer with all the humidity.

So you prefer a cooler climate? Not one where it's 90 degrees almost every day and 60 degree humidity.

60 or 80 or whatever.

How do people cope with the heat? I guess they're used to it.

Most women try to stay out of the sun because having pale skin is considered to be good.

So women don't like to get too tanned or try not to get themselves in the sun that much.

They were used sort of umbrellas or anything? Oh yeah, umbrellas or parasols and things like that.

Huh.

Okay.

How big are your classes? Do you remember how big your classes were? What I remember them about, probably 20, 25.

So about like here? Yeah.

And do children do things like play theater games or put on plays or like to act or do things like that? Yeah, there are some kinds of extracurricular things.

Not that many, not as many as here.

What's the national sport? It's that thing with the wicker ball, right? Oh, the golf, yeah.

What's it called, the gra? The golf.

It's kind of a version of soccer but not exactly.

It requires more skill, I think.

And then soccer is pretty popular.

Do you see kids just on the street playing the gra or playing soccer? Yes.

There was ping pong.

That's pretty popular in that nation.

Uh huh.

That's about it.

For most things, there are public swimming pools but some...

People are going to be very happy.

And then there are also few ice skating rinks but only people who can afford it go there.

It's funny to think about it being 90 degrees and people ice skating.

Oh, I guess that's why we do it.

It's part of western culture.

And are people pretty interested in western culture? Yeah, they like rock music and...

She's getting kind of cranky now.

She'll nip and move.

Okay, I don't want to.

She likes to be petted and then all of a sudden she'll get real cranky.

Yeah.

So do people...

Do you think a lot of people have kind of fantasies about living in the west or taking on...

Oh yeah, especially TV programs like Dallas and Falcon Crest and they think everybody here must have two cars and live in big houses and all that.

Uh huh.

So yeah, they have that image.

But I think fine art has always been...

It's sort of the old thing.

The older generation doesn't like all this rock and roll and stuff.

The younger generation do because...

Just precisely because the older generation doesn't like it.

Uh huh.

And then when people migrate from Thailand, what places do they go to? I know that they come to the US, but is there anywhere else they go? Um, some will go to Europe.

I think there are a lot of Thais in the world.

Great Britain, for example.

And maybe Japan.

Do any Thais go...

Well, you wouldn't really go to Hong Kong or anywhere like that, right? Hong Kong is pretty popular for shopping sprees for the rich.

Rich Thais.

And they'll say, oh yeah, we went to Hong Kong to get this and that.

And I guess the things over there are cheaper than what you would find here.

Brand names.

And what about the bordering countries? Like, wow, Burma is a bordering country, right? Yeah, but Burma is communist now.

Well, socialist communist.

Um, well since we're surrounded mainly by communist countries, there aren't that many Thais there, except maybe for business or government purposes.

Um, there are some Thais in Malaysia because it's right next door, so to speak.

But I don't think many Thais...

Oh well, they're Singapore of course.

Or do, for example, Laotians cross over into Thailand? Yeah, Laotian.

So the borders are pretty...

Okay.

Wow.

Oh yeah, what about...

Oh, Australia too.

A lot of Thais in Australia and New Zealand.

That's interesting.

I can't think of anything else.

Thank you very much.