Ivan - Interview #3 9/18/88 Murals
This is Avon 9, 1888, reel number 3.
Let me, I'm just going to show you a few slides of murals that are around here and see kind of what you think of them or what, I guess they're probably ones you know, if you like them.
But yeah, it's been there for a long time.
I mean, they haven't put, they haven't write, you know, graffiti or anything.
That's what I love, you know, even the kids, there is a gang right in front of this place.
Yeah, what I like about this one is that, you know, like people grabbing their home, they don't want to live, they want to stay there.
And you see different faces, like we all have the same need for housing and we all have the same problem.
It's like the people right now that are burning the stadium, some of those people, they don't want to live, but since money talk, they're going to get new houses, even in a different neighborhood.
It would say that we all have the same need for houses to protect them and probably, I don't know, look on the left of like drugs and cars.
But the main point here, I would say the need for housing.
Because it may have a few other messages between the car and the, but I always try to concentrate.
When I was taking my pictures, some of the people used to say, but you did not took the, that was a dog barking.
The dog, let's see, I don't like that dog there.
I was trying to eliminate the thing that I didn't like about the mural.
And that's the way I see it right now.
You may ask, don't you see that they have drugs on the side? They have alcohol, they're drinking, but I see the need of housing and the people fighting, this is my house, I want to protect the house.
So you sort of focus on the part you like best? Well, it dominates, I can, you know, you can always look abstract and look to the small parts.
But mural had to go directly to the people that they want to reach.
Don't paint like Picasso or those, you had to be direct.
That's how I, yeah, that's what I like about this one also, that they're being direct.
This one is the one by Hoyne and DeVision.
And it says, you know, they're saying that we have to be united, they got the black hand with the, you know, with the...
In this type of mural, they're reaching people.
But this one, they talk about us.
I don't see a revolution in Mexico or in, you know, their time, their place for those.
But this one, I like, that's the type, I haven't taken pictures of those about revolutions or...
I take pictures about the need here of the Latinos.
I remember that you mentioned to me, you probably talked about this, but how you feel like Chicago has sort of become your home, even when you go to Puerto Rico or to Mexico.
Yeah, because I, now, it gets to a point after you lived in a place for so many years that you realize that this is your house, this is your home.
And even though when I go there, I start missing Chicago.
And in this type of work, when I go around now, I say they're not reflecting our need.
Let's talk on this mural, on this painting, the need that we have.
It's nice to know about history.
We all know the Mexican Revolution, but let's not put it on every wall that you see.
About the independent movement of Puerto Rico, let's not...
Because they forget about our needs.
Don't tell the Puerto Rican they are struggling here to survive.
They came from Puerto Rico looking for a better living, that they're going to be better off by being independent.
They're not going to listen to that.
They're not going to look at the wall.
Now, you may tell an intellectual, and yeah, he will say that we're going to be better off.
And it's nothing better than being independent.
But realistically, when you're talking to people that are hungry, it's like probably...
That's the way I see it again.
They're fighting to overthrow Fidel Castro.
But don't they be banquets? You see when they arrive to those places, fancy, always pretend that they're better than the other Latinos.
And I'm talking about a small group.
I do have friends, Cubans, that are the best people to be with.
But there are some that when they want to...
They always talk about the upper class.
So they're not going to get anywhere.
And that's the way I see this...
I'm sure if I go to a Cuban community, they will have in their mural their need.
And if you paint a mural killing Fidel Castro in every wall, you're not going to get nowhere.
Because they've been here for 20, what, 25 years.
I don't know if that's the information that you want me when I see this.
There are no right or wrong answers.
I have a couple of shots of that if you want to look at it closer.
It's the same type of picture that I take.
I may take from different angles, but I'm not trying to get the sharper out of the...
I do like to separate the painting, but not to be fancy.
I'm not going to get up in the building and start...
Here shouldn't matter or something.
But this is the type of picture I take.
And I've seen this one before too.
But you see, I haven't been paying attention to this one lately.
I had to see it in another angle.
You do have another one? Yeah.
But something that I really...
This thing has been there for years.
And you don't see that many graffiti on top.
It's like kids respect those things.
This is the one by Milwaukee, right? Well, you know, this is all...
Well, to me, it reflects the same thing that our...
I see that they reflect the education, the problem that we have.
Again, some of this mural that they talk about, the problem that we have in education, it's like they don't get together.
The professional, the teachers, and the artists, they don't get together.
It's like the artists, they keep criticizing the system.
But I would like to see answers.
There are answers to see what can we do to correct the problem.
A lot of these murals around here, they reflect the education.
You see the books on the floor.
That's a problem that we all know that we have, that we have to correct that.
But this mural has been around for 15 years there.
And it's like we all know the problem, but we don't know the solution.
And there, I have to accuse or I have to criticize the professional.
We do have some professional people.
I'm saying professional people with a college degree, teaching, that they just get off from work and they go home.
They don't get involved in the...
I'm sure a lot of the teachers around, they haven't seen this work.
There's a different angle on this one.
How many people have you interviewed? These two.
It's the same mural, but it's a clear message that we need to be educated.
We need to finish high school.
But at the same time, we're doing it.
But we're not...they're not...they promised us something and we're not getting it.
It's like we have two members on the board of education.
Next year you may see one or you may see none.
It's like we move one step ahead and two the other way.
You see those arguments running against each other.
It's like...and again, I'm saying, I know a little more like the Mexican and the Puerto Rican.
It's like we're running against...we don't have the power to elect yet.
But we want to...we don't have the power to put someone there, but we want to knock someone down from that position.
It's like we have an alderman there.
Don't put three guys to run against him.
Let's put two more aldermen in our community.
Then if they don't do it good, we take him out.
But we're doing it the other way around.
That guy's been there a year and we just...
And that's what I see with this.
Continuously they're telling us to educate ourselves.
Most of the murals, that's what I see beside those from the revolution or beside those against the government, which I believe that was a time that was too many.
Probably that was in the 60s, probably.
This helps to keep the community focused.
Do you think it has an impact? It does, but again, they're going to have to come out to reach more Latinos.
They have to start painting those murals with the way they dress, the way they put their hair now.
I mean, don't try...just because that kid wears long hair, don't paint him on the mural.
And let's put the message in English.
My mother doesn't have any problem.
She's not going to change right now, or my father.
Oh, my father goes there and she reads and...
Que es la democracia, que es cierto, que es la paz, la libertad.
And they're going to keep walking and they're going to watch their soap, their novelas.
We need to reach the young people, the kids that they need to read.
Let's see if they can read, because I take my son to one of these murals and I say, read that, that is a panel that's in Spanish.
I can't, but he can use an excuse if it is in English.
So let's get the message across.
Let's reach the people that we want to.
And some of these, they put so much on it that you get confused.
You really need to be smoking or something in order to see it.
Yeah, that's the way to see it.
I mean, when you're going to put this and you're going to put that, it's like you're putting too much.
Remember that we haven't reached that point yet.
We're not supposed to be that smart.
And we want to reach that even though we have, the people that we want to reach, don't get them more confused.
You see, yeah, the kids, our kids, they talk, but the Spanish that they, remember that when you're going to, when you're going to write a Spanish on those murals, you're not going to put like, el poche, because that's not Spanish.
You're going to use el balcón.
You're going to use the real Spanish.
The Spanish that they spoke here is not the Spanish that we know.
So it's two different Spanish.
There are, you know, what they use continuously.
And if you're going to write down in Spanish, you know, Spanish, then they will, but you have to realize that you're dealing with people that, a lot of them, their parents never reached more than grammar school.
And their kids speak English where the Spanish from their parents are bad.
So you're going to have to one of the two.
You're going to reach the parents, which work all day.
You see, in Latin America, it's different.
You want to reach the parents because you want to overthrow the government.
Here, you're not going to overthrow no government.
You want to change the neighborhood.
When you see the, like I said before, the newspaper, you see the message, no drugs, going to school.
Do you think they understand the images? They do.
I mean, like, do you show them the one of...
Do you think they would understand the negative side, you see the syringes in the...
Do you think they would understand that as don't do this? Yeah.
But that was, you see, like this one was probably 10 years ago.
This has been there, the one I see that is nearby.
Well, we always have drug problem, but it's time for the new ones to change.
Or even those ones, let's change the message.
You're not going to change the paint, but the message.
And if they're going to leave those murals there, let's change those...
How do you call it? The message, every couple of years, they go out and let's go there and erase this and put something there.
I mean, you have to respect the artist, the message.
But the message of 10 years ago, 15, 20 years ago, I mean, it's not going to serve the purpose.
They're going to start writing down.
They're going to tore down one down.
If they call us because they're going to tore down the building, I say, I agree.
Because that means that he don't want to go to Vietnam.
That's what I mean, that they don't want to go to serve in the army.
But you don't have to go because it's volunteer now.
No one's going to take you if you don't want to go.
So the message there is going to have to change.
Because the neighborhood is changing.
I mean, the society is changing.
But I believe they care because they don't do anything to damage the painting.
But if you start painting too much like the housing and the drugs and the car, I believe it's an accident or something.
There is a car, you know, like in an accident.
You put too many in one painting.
You know, you're putting too much information.
And I believe that the message has to be for us to make sure that we all see the same thing.
Because it's like when you see one of the big ones in the museums, those abstract paintings.
They're crazy saying that that means their interpretation is different.
And I'm talking about people that know about art.
What about this one? This is another painting.
This is very simple because it's more like tourists.
When I came here, that's what I noticed.
Especially I came from this place.
This paint, I came from my west.
Yeah, this one here, especially in this one, the one with the...
That's what I saw when I came here.
And in my case, I'm from the west side of Puerto Rico, which is nearby.
You see the color, you see the contrast.
I love this one, this type of painting.
Does it look like your island? Does it look like what you remember of Puerto Rico? Yeah, yeah.
That was an article yesterday on...
I believe it was on the paper or...
What we all want to believe there, what we just go there to visit, but we write there's the need there.
Even though we love the place because the colors, it's like we change.
We come here and we forget about people, that other people have, you know, problems.
What other questions about the music? But those murals, that's what I like, the color.
I love the color because you don't see color around.
Just go to one of those and you see the color.
And probably, who knows, probably that's the reason they don't do anything to write on those murals.
I'm talking about the gangs, the kids.
Probably because they don't see color, not even in their house.
And color changes the mood of people, how you feel.
It's like when you dress well, you feel different.
Even though you may have the same problems, and you see a color, bright color or something.
Only one thing, one flower, something changed.
And probably they're on the street all day seeing those same building, the gray color of the building.
Same porches, smoking the same color.
When they see some of those colors, it's like, I don't know, they see something because they stay there for years.
They may do something, they may write something on it, but it's not much.
It's like they're not that dumb.
And that's one of the reasons why they have to be simplified.
Even though we're supposed to be getting smarter day after day, but probably because of the drug, you have to make sure you get that message across.
Because anyone, and I'm out there, and I know a great number of kids and adults are using cocaine.
That's probably the reason you see this government spending so much against, you know, And we're going to have to start reaching those people.
But using the same way we always do, and don't give up, you know, giving up the need.
We still have the need for education, houses, heard.
But there's another problem now.
I mean, before they used to smoke pot.
But now I know there's numbers using it.
So we have to be more, and I know that we're not going to change anything, because we're not going to go there and change the murals.
We're not going to go and change the paint.
But if this work can reach some of those people that do that work, I would like them to see that they're going to have to be more, they're going to have to come to their, be more realistic, simplify themselves.
I don't know if the artists want to be creative, like, I want to do this different, or I want to be, I don't know how they work.
I don't know if it is like a singer that they want to keep getting up, up, up, up, and make more money.
And the crazier they paint, it's like the better they get.
See, I don't want to see this in murals.
I want to see them to keep themselves, instead of putting so much information in some of them, like I said before, people are on drugs.
And we use those, you get crazy, you get more high, you know, and you see so many colors, so many paintings, those are beautiful work.
But they're going to have to simplify.
Let's see if we can reach the people.
And let's, I would like to see them getting out of the ghettos, and move that, their message across.
Because their message, believe me, the same people, you see, we all see the murals, the same people that live there, but I'm sure it will change if we can get that message across.
Even the copy, the same copy, probably that's not possible because it's supposed to be authentic, not copies, or you know, I don't know.
Duplicate it with photographs.
Let's see, let me just show you, this one's just called migration of the people.
Yeah, this is the type that I, when I came from Puerto Rico, I saw a lot.
Okay, that was, this one represents mostly the movement of Puerto Rican independence.
And I used to be part of that, I used to participate with the movement.
I used to be everywhere with them.
I mean, I used to, I used to call anti -American things, free Puerto Rico, free this and free that.
And I still would like to see who knows my country, independence.
But at the same time, I had to be realistic.
In Puerto Rico, only 5 % of the people want the independence.
And the movement on independence in Puerto Rico never reached more than 5%.
So I respect their view, I respect their ideas.
And I'm not saying that I want to stay hood.
I don't know any other way, because I was born in the American way.
So this type of work is beautiful work, and it's nice to see it.
When they first put this one up, I used to go to Tully.
And I used to cut classes just to follow these guys.
I used to fight against the management from the school.
At that time, there was something going on.
They were trying to come up to put someone Latino to run the school.
And at that time, now I realize that that was not the place to be with this type of...
It wasn't, because they keep putting this...
They used to have more, a lot more of this by Tully High School.
Most of those people used to have the same independent movement, Puerto Rico Independent, Independent, Independent.
But when you go to Puerto Rico, you don't see...
I don't think we'll be better by being independent, even though I can tell you a hundred reasons why we'll be better.
And this type of work, I don't think will help us.
Because we have to keep remembering...
We have to let the kids know their background, where they come from, their history.
But if they come here and they're having problems like I do, that I need to learn English, I need to move ahead, I want to move ahead.
I don't want someone telling me that moving ahead here is fighting for my independence.
And that was one of my problems that I joined most of this movement.
And it's beautiful because you're surrounded by people that you learn from them.
And I told you about this some before, that there was too many of these.
And you see people, someone...
how do you call that? When they put someone to kill, he will be killed.
To be assassinated? Yeah, these are political, mostly political.
But there was too many around the school at that time.
And I'm sure people used to walk by.
Probably people would say that happened in Cuba or in China.
They were trying to say that that happened when the Americans came, they killed the Puerto Ricans.
But at that time, I said that we had to reflect the need of the people who live in Chicago.
Don't put a mural here with the problem of Russians in Russia.
Now you can put one where the majority of the Russians live in Chicago.
That will solve the purpose, their need, their community.
But mine, you have to reflect my need in Chicago.
And they keep fighting against the system instead of move.
For some of these artists, I know that they are...
it's like when you see the Mexican government.
Always against us, but always asking for us.
You know, anything that we do, we run.
But uncle, cousin, we need some money, you know.
And you get to a point that a lot of times they're right.
Because when I go there, you read the paper and the story is different, totally different from the United States.
Because I don't believe everything I read on the paper here.
I know that we have done so many things bad.
But I'm not going to get up in the morning thinking about the bad thing of this country.
And we used to live by division, like Augusta Boulevard and California.
I was happy, my brother, my parents used to go to work, and we used to struggle.
Nowadays, we all live around here.
All my brothers, they own houses around here within a block.
And we're looking for something else.
And like I said before, when there's the Puerto Rican parade, I'm the first one who'll be there.
And if they need money to help someone and we've done any money...
This audio was recorded for an unfinished documentary about the visual language of murals in Chicago's Hispanic communities.