Ivan - Interview #2 9/18/88 - Murals

I don't know why, but I get used to it.

Well, the murals are very colorful, and I was wondering if you could talk a bit about that.

Do you think that it's sort of an urge of Hispanics to make the neighborhood more colorful? I mean, what are your thoughts on the color? No, I like the colors.

I would like to see more dimension into it.

I realize that we're talking about flat, and we're talking about wall, but I would like to see more dimension.

In the painting, if they're going to paint a bucket, why don't you stick one there? Why don't you glue one there? I mean, not only flat paint, but I would like to see create more.

Instead of painting the garbage, why don't you grab one garbage and nail it to the wall there? One.

And it changes things around so they will call the attention to the people.

It's a way to, because it gets to a point where you pass by it then every day, and you get used to it.

You get used to see it.

So it's time for those artists to create, to add more, to call for people to pay more attention.

Because it's like, I believe that's what happens to newspapers.

Newspapers, the people, they need to come up with different ideas, and you see how they advertise on television, how their paper is going to change.

More color into it.

They're going to add more into it.

And the same thing, in a way, these people, these artists, they're going to have to change in order to call the attention.

You're competing, even though you're not competing for money.

You're competing for viewers.

You're competing for people.

It's like we have two newspapers here.

They keep competing.

Same news, because it's nothing different.

Something happens, you can buy any paper and you're going to read the same thing.

But they prefer you to buy the paper instead of buying the other paper.

So they have to come up with something to call your attention.

And now that we have so many cable, registration, people are painting those murals, those paintings, they're going to have to create something.

I know that they're working without money, but they have to be a little more creative.

This is, we're going into another century.

We're going into, it's time for a change.

And you see the change.

You see the graffiti.

Those are not graffiti.

Those are art, in a way.

Those kids that are doing those graffiti, it's not like when we used to do it.

When we used to do it, we used to put down, I love Maria, and the teacher is this and that.

You don't see that anymore.

You see how they spend their time doing what they're doing, those graffitis.

Those guys there, they go at midnight or the time that they go with a few cans of spray, different colors.

Before we used to do only one market.

Now they are, so in a way, I believe that in a way they're doing something different than the people that are painting those murals, those paintings.

They're doing something, and they are telling us, we're here now.

Probably because they want to work with these artists.

They want to be part of them, but they're telling us something.

There are times that I don't know what they're saying because the way they write, the way they put the sign.

But I know that the symbol means something.

I don't know the symbol, what that means.

Probably those are games or...

But when I see one, I say, I would like to talk to that kid.

Probably I can get him to talk to go to college and probably go to Columbia College.

I wish there would be money because those guys, they don't need to finish high school to go to art school.

I don't know, probably you as a professor or probably you won't agree, but some of those kids, they don't need to finish their high school.

They're drop out already.

So probably you can get them and put them into art, and I'm sure you're going to get a lot of them out of Gantz.

And I believe the painting on the wall is going to have to change in order to call the attention of the people because the need is different.

I don't know if the need is different, but I believe that we're going to something or we're moving ahead.

We're fighting more.

We are getting to get to the point where we're learning more.

We are realizing that we had to organize in order to survive, that we're not going to keep accusing people of doing things against us.

So they're going to have to change in order to reach us.

I know what I mean when I see their painting.

I know what they're trying to say, but there are more groups of people coming into the city right now, like different ethnic groups, even from South America, Central America, they're coming in and they're mixing with us.

They're coming to our community.

So now we're going to start reaching to those people.

But by painting faces of Fidel Castro continuously or Che Guevara continuously, it's not going to solve our problems.

We need to get more.

There was a need in the 60s to paint those faces there.

You don't have to paint the whole face of Fidel Castro for us to know that it's Fidel Castro.

I'm saying Fidel Castro because I don't remember.

But even if it is one of the big people in the world, we don't need to use all their faces continuously because it's become political.

You will know that they're from the left, and they're not fighting to help us.

They're fighting to get control.

That's what I see in some of those murals there.

They're people on the left.

I mean, they're socialists, but they don't know what that means.

They love Fidel Castro, and they don't know the reason why they love Fidel Castro.

And everything that this country does is wrong.

But they don't analyze the problem.

They don't analyze.

And they're going to have to change.

It's time to move.

It's time to...

It's like the black people.

They're moving ahead.

They're continuously growing.

They keep asking for more.

They deserve more.

They have to be equal.

But I don't think that they have to be teaching their kids continuously that everything that happens to them is because they are black.

And we as...

What I'm talking about, Latinos.

I don't think we should not do the same thing.

We have to move forward.

That's the reason that even if we're going to have to create dimension on the painting that we use by adding, be realistic.

There are times that we can use the garbage can and put it right there.

And we can put a gate.

Grab a gate and don't paint the gate.

Let's put it there.

Let's create a dimension or something.

But to tell people something.

I mean, be more creative in the way that we had to change the story.

No more about what happened in the 60s.

You can still see a group of people like Anglos.

They're still behind Arbus Presley.

They go after him.

They're crying.

He's alive.

They're crying.

And you see people in the 60s, the way they dress.

They...

I'm not talking about people in the 40s and the 50s.

They're not.

They still...

They still live in the 60s.

The way they dress.

They keep singing the same song.

Don't realize that we're singing something else now.

It's like I remember when I was 15.

And when I listen to one of those records from the Jackson 5.

But believe me, I won't put Jackson 5 all day long.

So we as a community, we as a neighborhood are going to have to change.

Even the way we paint.

The way we photograph.

The way we do things.

Going to have to change because we're changing.

And the painting is going to have to bring a bit more realistic You see a lot of times when they put those murals there, they are not reaching the young people.

That they are the one they have to reach.

They're painting for us.

For people within 30 years old, 35 years old.

Because my son, he's born here.

He's 17.

And so is the son of my nephew, he died in the 20s.

It can be...

You can keep putting those paintings of Fidel Castro.

You can keep putting those pictures of the 60s, the revolution.

You're not reaching them.

It's okay to put a few and to teach history.

We have to all learn.

We have to know where we come from.

We came from this country.

But there's another problem now.

We talk about drugs.

We talk about this.

We better reflect that in there.

And in order to reach that, we have to change the way they paint.

We have to create more color.

In a way, it had to be more fantasy.

We had to put it there.

We had to...

Because this is Chicago.

In Mexico, we can go back to the revolution.

We can put one in each corner.

Because they're starting that in the school, the revolution.

Every time they have their own problems, the president just had to do...

To tell them to remember the Mexican Revolution.

People are happy.

They're hungry.

But they're telling them to remember the revolution.

They keep...

But I believe we had...

Those artists are going to have to change the way they paint.

They're going to have to...

In order to reach more people, we're competing.

I don't know.

Probably a lot of people say that my view is out.

But I believe we're competing.

There are people at the same time that you're painting a wall.

There are people passing fliers.

Telling us that that's garbage.

When I walk to one of those paintings, I would like to stop every day, every time I pass by.

Because there had to be a message there every time I pass by.

And it would be nice to even take some of my relatives when they come to a tour.

But they're going to...

I believe a little change won't...

Because we're moving to a new century.

Well, beyond just the technique, what kind of messages do you think should be coming out of those murals to talk to your son versus older people? Okay.

I believe like drugs.

There are problems.

Problems that are happening right now.

Psychological problems.

They go through changes.

But their changes don't mean that they're always political changes.

It's like when I first went to school, when I finished high school, that I was getting ready to go to Northeastern or Columbia College.

I was trying to get into Northeastern.

But there was a movement there, mostly Puerto Ricans, about their independence.

And that was one of my problems that I started joining.

Even though when I was going to Columbia, I spent more time wasting my time.

Because I know my people and I try to keep up with the history of my country.

But there was a few people that now that I'm old, that I'm 35 right now, I realized that I waste so much time because I didn't have anyone to help.

The people that were painting those walls, they were telling me that the system don't work.

That anti -American continuously.

There was a group of people, the same people that are painting the walls.

Getting money from the government and always criticizing the government.

I mean, their time is like in the 60s.

The American people, I would say the majority of the people was against the Vietnam War, what was happening there.

But that was at that time.

Time changed and these people are not changing.

And I believe they're going to have to change the message in order to reach out.

The only thing right now I believe they have to change is the drugs.

Probably sex.

All the things that we're talking about in the papers.

Because the papers are saying no to drugs.

Television are saying no to drugs.

But you don't see those in murals.

You only see revolutions.

You only see struggle by the workers.

Yeah, there's a lot of things going on.

But I want them to reach more people, more kids.

So there don't have to be a dropout.

But every time you see, well, I haven't been around lately.

A couple of years.

I don't know if they have changed.

To the one that I see around right now.

If they're trying to reach my parents, probably my parents never finished high school.

And they're not going to go back to school now.

They have to work every day in order to support myself.

And like the rest of the family.

My father worked, when I came here, my mother used to work, my father used to work eight hours.

And if they offered an overtime, they would take it.

So there was no time to tell my father to go and learn English.

He never learned the Spanish, probably.

And I put on a sample of a group of people.

That's what happened.

And people said that the illegal islands, mostly Mexican, that they had to go and learn English.

But they don't know Spanish.

They haven't finished their grammar school.

But you have to tell them, and if they go and learn English, like I do, are you going to offer them a better job or are they going to keep washing dishes? So you see the need.

We had to tell them to learn, but at the same time, we're going to have to keep them helping.

Their need is have change.

And because we're talking about the painting, I believe they're going to have to reach the young people because they really need to.

Even the Latinos, let's put the message in English.

Yeah.

In order to reach them.

Because they don't pay attention.

They like the painting, but it's in Spanish.

And so we're not doing anything by, we need to put that message in English or bilingual.

So they will get the message.

They will read.

But when they try to read, you know, they laugh.

And when they laugh, the whole thing is gone.

So you need to leave that message there.

And I don't know if they're doing it.

I haven't seen it.

But I'm sick and tired of revolutions.

Mexico, when you go to Mexico, they don't talk about the revolutions.

When you go to Puerto Rico, you don't see the independent movement there.

It's there.

It's nothing more proud of a person to be and to feel independent.

It's like the Americans, they know that they're independent.

We all, but I don't know if they keep putting the revolution, the independent, the revolution in the painting.

They're not serving the community.

They're not serving, they're not doing anything.

Just take a look around.

Go by Hertz and Western, you see one painting at the, painting or killing the, probably the mestizos or you go the other way, you see the American killing the others.

Then you see the gang killing each other.

Why don't we change things around? Let's put another message, put another message into those paintings.

But the people that are doing the painting, I don't know.

I believe they're, they're always been on the left, but they're trying to change.

They're trying that you have to be realistic.

They're trying that you have to realize that in, even in a communist country, all the things that they do are not bad.

They have to be doing something good when people, when they compete, they win.

They go everywhere and they, they're doing the best they can for their country.

Same thing here.

All the things that we do are not.

But I believe this, they had to, they had to change.

I don't know, probably you see more than me, but I believe they had to change the message in order to reach the young people.

How much do you think the murals now and in the past were actually aimed at people outside the community? They were messages like to the Anglos.

And how much do you think they were really just for the community? I would say the majority was to the community because the Anglos that will see it, a lot of them, I don't know the reasons, they don't even know our history.

They don't even care about it.

Well, that was a survey done in the United States asking people about where Amala or Mexico was.

They didn't know.

And by you putting those murals, that was for the community.

I would say that that was, but the way I see it, at that time they were reaching people.

But they're not doing it now.

They're going to have to, probably they are doing it.

I'm not sure that I bring here my point of view.

I will not say that I'm talking about in that I represent my people.

I believe they tried to reach more the community then.

When I say Anglos, I mean middle class or upper class because we have poverty even in the Anglo community.

People that stay with us living in that way, poverty or whatever, is because they need to, they don't have no open doors, they don't have no place to go.

But those that are middle class or upper class, they are not going to drive by limo and on the division or they're not going to.

Or they are investors that are going to try to turn out the building and put condos or, but I believe they were trying to reach our community.

When you first were here, you must have been, well right at the age of high school and right at the age of the gangs and stuff like that, did you feel a pull in that direction? Were there messages in the murals that tried to help you sort that out? No, I joined.

I joined one of them even though I never went out with them.

I just, I thought like clubs.

I was at a club.

When I hear about gangs in Puerto Rico, in the United States, for me that was like in the movie, like Arca -Pon.

But when you say about kids, it's like a club.

But when I realized they used to go out and fight, I used to use excuses, but I used to communicate with them in Spanish.

My Spanish was much more, I mean it was sophisticated to them.

Even I just came from high school in Puerto Rico and I used to use words that they didn't know what that means.

They used to listen to me.

It's like, you can do it.

A lot of times you just go and talk to a kid.

And if you go to our neighborhood now and you talk in a slam way, they won't respect you.

I mean you have to be friendly, but if you start throwing them, I'm not talking about high level university talk, but don't talk the way they talk either.

They listen to you.

I believe they do.

You have to talk in a friendly way and they, in a couple of minutes, or probably after a conversation, they try to use the same word you're using.

They don't want to, you know, they want you to respect them too.

And I used to, when I joined that gang, I used to talk to them.

I used to set up how we're going to attack the others.

And I used to, I thought that I was a soldier, like the command or something.

But some of them were bad kids.

I mean they used to, they can cut someone's throat like, oh.

But at that time I was afraid.

I was afraid.

I just went out with them one night and they see what they were doing.

I didn't know how to fight.

I used to run.

I used to run from where I lived because the Italians were, I, when we first came here, we used to live by Ohio Street and Damon Avenue.

There was a lot of Italians there.

And the Puerto Rican was only probably two or three blacks.

I used to run from that place to Tule High School every morning.

And if someone would ask, I would say that I was jogging.

I was running.

I was afraid.

And I hear people talking about the black people, the black people, the black people.

And he said, well, what's wrong with that man? I used to talk to myself, what was wrong with that person? And that's probably a couple of months after or a couple of, probably.

Yeah, I would say a couple of months.

I was talking about the black people.

They haven't done anything to me.

But in order to be with certain people, it's like, or talking about my own people.

And that will happen right now within my people.

They talk against each other, but they don't talk to each other.

How can we do better? Because that's not a way that we came.

I mean, we came from a closeness within the family.

That's my cousin's cousin.

That's family.

Don't matter if it is your fifth cousin from your cousin.

But here, you only recognize that your family is your son and your wife.

I mean, if your mother and father come, I feel I had the time.

And I see that change.

When I came here, that's what I saw.

I used to know my father said this, my mother said that.

They used to tell me, don't listen to her.

But I joined again.

But those kids weren't doing anything ordinary.

Out of...

They just used to fight.

They used to go out after the Italians.

And the Italians used to come after them.

And that was like when you see the West Side story, the same thing.

So, but I joined then and then I went to...

I joined the Latin Kings at that time.

But I never went with them.

It's that they told that you joined them.

They don't care if you come or you don't.

Either you're part of them.

It's like organization.

They have to have the names.

You go to the meeting, you don't even know your name.

You see five people and they're supposed to have 50.

And they like to give their name like they're part of their organization.

It's like you feel proud of yourself.

But that's how I try to help my son now.

I don't know what he does when he leaves the house.

But when he asked me, I said no.

Me being in the game, no way.

I would not tell him that I started smoking when I was 16 or 17.

You see, I believe that we had to grow.

We had to, even had to lie.

But I'm not going to tell my son that I was doing...

Even I don't think that I was doing something bad.

But my father told me that he was the best student in school.

That he used to be...

And now that I know what I said, he was lying.

Yeah.

So anyway, I had to be...

To tell my son the same thing.

There are times that I tell him, I don't know how I come out with that one.

Okay.

But that's how I...

There are times that even when he sees me smoking, I said, do you see me smoking in the house? I smoke in the house, I smoke outside.

And I smoke five, probably three cigarettes a day.

A pack of cigarettes would last me...

A week.

And it's true.

He said, I saw you smoking.

I said, but I'm quitting.

I'm not quitting, but...

You see, I had to try to stop him...

To do what I believe is wrong, which I had to stop too, in order for him not to do it.

But there are habits that you can't change anytime.

But I...

Like, we're talking about those paintings.

It's...

It's time to tell people something else.

Let's change the tomb.

Even though I enjoy seeing...

When I see those signatures, when I see those murals, I go up.

I look down and I see who painted, how many people.

And I say, God, so many people work on this painting more than to put a house up, to construct a building or something.

You see names, a lot of names.

Because they use the community to help them.

And how they struggle to put that paint there.

And that's the reason I would like to see them around.

They represent us.

We're always struggling to survive.

We're always...

But I keep insisting that change had to...

Susan told me that...

When you used to photograph the murals, you liked to have children in the pictures.

Why was that? Yes, I used to.

Yeah, because I...

They are there.

You see, there are people that when they're going to try to take a picture, they start telling people, move.

Can you move to the side? And they want to take a picture from the house.

And that person lives there.

Why don't you see that kid on the stairs and take a picture of the kid too? If in their time, you just want to...

You just have to make...

Put a calendar.

And you need that space to put the title or something.

So, you know.

But...

When you see those...

I used to take those pictures and I used to see that they're...

That's how they live.

I used to bring them and I used to...

When I see those...

When they opened the fire pumps in the summertime, I used to take...

Take pictures of them.

Getting in, getting out.

And if you see the garbage around, I told them to stand by.

And some of the kids used to tell me, no, but not like the garbage can.

I used to tell them, why don't you pick it up? Clean that side so I can take the picture because that's the way.

Some of the kids used to clean it.

Some of them used to tell, clean it yourself.

But you see, I believe that we have to bring people to participate.

We have to bring the people within the community.

Some of the artists that paint those things, those murals, they never run.

They come, they go.

And I like when I see a club...

When they close the street and they celebrate something, they bring a group of people that they're doing it because a lot of people, they don't know, they don't have the way to entertain themselves.

It's like when I saw, when they opened the beach on the home board, I see it as something positive because a lot of people that live around there, they don't have the way to even get to Lake Michigan.

So...