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that artists were basically doing.

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It's something that I see again and again.

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You know artists don't like to talk about their ego.

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The fact that whenever you do anything, you're dedicated

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to it and you put hours after hours

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with not immediate gratification. There's not an audience going great, you're doing a beautiful job,

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you're doing great and stroking you and what have you. The only thing

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that's abstaining you is that you feel good about what you're doing.

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When you feel good about what you're doing, you have to have an amount of ego involved.

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Because it's egotistic. You're getting pleasure that is completed to yourself.

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That you're not sharing with somebody else at that moment. And artists tend to want

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to be by themselves. They don't want to be around anyone around.

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By the same time, part of that ego also demands that you get recognition.

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And the recognition that you want is a kind of recognition

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that comes from the art world or the mainstream.

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Because that's when you really begin to make it. That's when you begin to sell.

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Galleries begin to open, articles, and you can make a living as an artist.

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As a painter. When you do murals,

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you get some very special recognition.

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Which is very unique in itself. And that is you get the recognition for

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people in the neighborhood. You get the recognition from kids.

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You get the recognition from people who walk by. The wine also combines.

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So this is great. People would love it. So the funny part about

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doing a mural is you get immediate gratification. You get up there and you start drawing.

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Oh, that is really nice. You're doing that. Is that a mural? So right away you feel

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good. People are every day coming by. Every day you put one color.

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You stand back and be somebody who is like, oh I like that. I like the way it's looking.

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And the beautiful part is people go by there every single day. And the mural

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slowly grows in them. Because they see piece by piece by piece

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by piece and so on there. It's not like they go on there and

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there is the finished product. The painting is different. People see the finished product,

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not the process. So the process becomes important.

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The problem is that fine, you get that kind of gratification from doing

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it, which we enjoy very much. But then the mainstream

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does not recognize mural painting as a serious

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artistic expression. Especially because you're doing it in its politics. You're doing it in

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your movement. Besides, who's making money out of it?

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The collectors are not making money out of it. The galleries are not making money. So it's like

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when you do it, you put it down. It's not serious art. And it is.

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It is very serious art. And it's actually what

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art should be all about. Because when I paint, I want as many people to see my artwork.

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You know? The reason I would like to see it on magazines is because a lot of people are going to see it.

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And that's gratification. It's also equal to this thing.

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And you're about to communicate. Yeah, shaking away people's things too, right?

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Maybe changing their ideas a little bit. Even indirectly or unconsciously.

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So that's what a mural tends to do within the community.

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But then you don't get the big reviews or the person comments,

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oh, so they're mural, social place. You should come over there and see it.

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And all the art critics don't do that. So we completely dismiss.

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So then you have a clash.

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They want it to be recognized because it helps you survive. It helps you pay

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to buy the supplies. The shoe and board supplies are very expensive. And so you are worth so more people have it.

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And you can paint more. Then you also want to do something that is public.

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You want to share what you have with a large amount of people.

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And murals is a beautiful way to do it. But the murals are not

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going to give you the seriousness or artistic recognition that a canvas is.

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So you run into that duality. Then if you start painting

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what you paint on murals, they become the same.

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And that is because of politics. Your issue is not recognized as serious.

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Because it becomes public art.

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And public art, unfortunately, in the mainstream, except if it's done

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like sculptures for the large building, you should get a hell of a lot of money.

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The rest of it is meaningless. Because you're doing it for the people.

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Who cares for the people? Who is making the box?

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I was also thought about that in terms of the kinds of painting

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that's done. It seems, at least the early 70s murals, tended to be really

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specific, recognizable images. So I was wondering if some artists

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had sort of a more personal sort of abstract style that they used to make their own

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visual painting.

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Well, you have to remember at that time there was also an unspoken competition among the murals.

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Everybody went to see what everybody else was doing.

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So even if people say, oh, that's really nice, you can hear other tones.

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And you get real flattered when somebody copies something that you did.

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Or something of that nature. When large amount of people, a lot of the murals would come and really compliment you

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how good it was. Or when they ignore you, they also felt good.

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Because that made them maybe they felt apprehensive.

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But doing a mural in Bosnia and Herzegovina

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is really a unique experience, let me tell you.

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First of all, you have to be able to communicate.

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Most artists communicating on the campus is not with people. They tend to be anti-social.

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Or to communicate with themselves, I think?

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Well, you have to be able to do that. You have to have a clear thought. But you have to communicate with a number of people

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that usually don't have deals with. You have to have a community

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organization that's very producing and convince them to become the

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sponsors. You have to go to the wall and the owners and convince them

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that what they're getting is something that's going to be an improvement, it's going to look good, it's going to look good for the neighborhood,

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it's good for them, maybe it has a backing of the neighborhood. And then you have to go

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to meetings and then you have to go back home and do the sketch

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and draw it in proportion to the building and make it look nice. Go back and present it to them.

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To make sure that they feel that they're part of the approval of the process.

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So they're not left out. Because if they come more out of the process, the more they're going to

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help you. Especially getting the supplies and paying for doing the mural, which is a very

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expensive proposition. It's tremendous, tremendous

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hard work. The mural is not, it is fun, but it's not

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the fun that you say, wow, this is really, I mean, it's work.

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You break your back out there. One, you have to, I remember

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rubbing my hands with bleeding and what have you. I should clean the wall with this

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wire pieces. You really scrub it off and make sure it was

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clean. Then you had to put this chemical to prepare the wall and the whole thing

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where you put the weight. You had to scuff it, you had to take it out, set up

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put the few things, get up there and do it, right? And you take it apart

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at the end of the day, like it, clean everything up, the brushes and everything, go home

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and collapse. So you had to take the scaffolding apart or something? Yes. Well,

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some people did not, but there was a lot of situations where you had to take it all apart and be gone.

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Some neighborhood you can like it and keep it there and nobody would touch it.

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But not all neighborhoods were like that. There was a few projects

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where you had to take the whole thing apart. Then you come back the next day and you put

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the white part and you finish the white part and you start drawing the drawing and you had to do it in

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proportion. That's a lot of work in itself to make sure everything is, you know, the way that you

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come down, move back, come up, do some more, come down, move back

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and that process continues. And when you start painting, you had to do

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the whole painting and wash out colors to see how the combination looks

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So if you had to make changes, it would cost you a lot of money. Oh, I see. And again,

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you come in in the morning every day, take the scaffolding apart, put everything up,

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go up there, do whatever you're going to do, come down, take a rest and you have the sun

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hitting you. Okay? And you did that all day long.

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Sweating and what have you, eating a little bit. And that's just

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tremendous. I mean, my mind can tell you I used to come and collapse from doing murals.

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Then we had a mural over there by a church where we decided to do panels.

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Oh, that's Diversity, right? Yeah. No, not Diversity, the other one.

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It's a church by Sheridan,

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close to Broadway. Oh! It's in the back of the church.

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We did it on panels because the priest didn't want to see the mirror in front.

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And of course Jim, who's a Japanese artist, and my software, the one, Jim,

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had dark glasses, looked very suspicious, had long hair up to here from college, right?

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So these two guys had another mirror in front of the church, go away.

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So I decided to do it on the back in panels. And the panels had to be,

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they were just, ah, ah, ah, can't even tell you how many.

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They had to be taken all in, taken out, put on the floor,

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and we painted on the floor all day long with backs like this. Oh my god.

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And then if you wanted to see what you were painting, you had to run to the top of the building and look down.

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Wow. Okay? And when the panels were white, there was all that reflected light

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that just killed your eyes. That was hard,

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hard work by two people every single day. Take the panels out,

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put them back in. I mean, and those panels were heavy.

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Is that mural still there? Still there. The priest got,

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the priest got a, ah, ah, priest got a pretty size when they put it in the front.

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They said that he was a shame. And it was a mural

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put in the Hispanic and the Japanese history next to each other to show how similar they were.

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In terms of coming to the United States. What church is this?

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Can you remember? Oh, it is.

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It's Broadway. It's Cherrita. Cherrita.

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So that is tremendous, tremendous hard work. Then you have to,

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if everything goes right, and of course you only have the summer to do it,

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you don't have no more time. You only have about a month to months to get the whole project finished.

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Then you can have a big party, a big celebration. If you're lucky, maybe the local press

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will come and cover it. Maybe super lucky if sometime

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you make a little story on it. Selma. Selma.

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So the good gratification is that all the neighborhood, the big party.

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I mean one of the parties that, the wall I did over here on Norr Avenue

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began through the party. There was no money. And they have

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ah, ah, pigs, drinks, music, the whole thing.

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It was a big, everybody was shocked. The food was great.

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And it was a very dangerous place.

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Because there's a lot of people being killed there. And the gangs, fights,

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and what have you. I mean going there and doing a mural there, you're putting your life

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on the mark. And I was there most of the time by myself. I did it with

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Guerrero. Oh, uh huh. But most of the time I was there by myself when we first started.

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Which one was this? And it's folding in Norr Avenue.

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Oh. Have you seen that one? I'm sure not.

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Is it still there? It's still there. It hasn't been touched.

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That's great. I think it has something small but that's about it.

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And the real funny is I painted three heads

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looking up on the top. And the gang thought there were three people

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who got killed. It wasn't. But they thought

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I was glorifying the three people who got shot.

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Which meant they were going to protect it. You know I never say no

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it's not bad. I just gave them my own shot. That's convenient number three, right? Yeah.

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And the mural's still there. It hasn't been touched whatsoever.

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How did you think that spot was doing it? It was the only wall available in the area.

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And I wanted to do a mural last summer and actually I think that was my last mural.

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And what was the theme or topic?

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I think

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all concerned, my concerns and Guerrero's concerns was we wanted to do something

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that deals with the neighborhood area. You know the prostitution

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people taking. And also Plan 21 was a big thing.

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So we did something with Plan 21 that was supposed to renovate the neighborhood

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which meant that a lot of people would be displaced and stuff.

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And it's very simple. It's just to give an

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impact of the mural in that area. But it wasn't any

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glorifying the worker, the community and that type of thing.

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That's another thing about murals is that most of the themes they'll

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deal with issues, community issues.

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And unfortunately there wasn't an opportunity

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to do murals for the sake of art and nothing else.

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It was go there and do something that I think

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only the first muralist in Chicago, what's his name?

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Castillo was the only one

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that managed to do a mural

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with no thing in terms of relating to the neighborhood.

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It was a painting. And the painting up there

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looks exactly like his painting at the studio.

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Right, they had that feeling. But still it was an artistic expression.

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Art for people to appreciate and enjoy. With the

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mural group the philosophy was that it has to have a message.

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It has to do with the neighborhood. It has to have an impact. It has to be

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a social political type of thing. Themes.

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And when you go to almost all those murals they all have that social political themes.

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And that was the main grain Walker, myself, John Weber,

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everybody, Sharpe and so forth.

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They all have the social political theme.

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And that was pretty much agreed upon by everyone.

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Right, but the only one that came after that that I saw that I think had that theme

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was the one that Weber did on North Avenue with

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the big flower sculpture. See once they got into doing sculptures

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because the media limited itself, they were not able to get

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into heavy duty things that were in the neighborhood. They got into

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beautification. That was another part that they created from

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the whole idea of beautification.

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And of course, a lot of modern art is not filled with art, we're supposed to beautify

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but it's supposed to have a certain visual impact.

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There's a certain artistic impact, whatever. But it's not there to make things

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look pretty. So as soon as you say beautification, you're giving a little

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word that artists don't like. So people didn't want to get too much

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into that. And then when you get into the little part with the little sculptures

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with its public art, it's very nice, but it doesn't have a strong political social message.

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Unless you say, well it has a social message. It's being interior and the people

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can play it, but it's not that clear.

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Also there was the other problem is that many of the artists, including John,

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even though he's been recognized nationally,

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to some extent internationally in terms of one of the muralists, was not getting

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the due respect in terms of his canvas.

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John doesn't have galleries running after him.

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It is now that some galleries have opened the doors here and there.

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Well the fascinating thing is the work that he's beginning to show

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in galleries is not the work that he was doing that was social political

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in nature. He used to do big pieces. I mean he used to go to

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large pieces that was all strongly political.

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And the little synotomics in like the murals, the little stronger.

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But that was it. Nothing happened with that. No shows, no nothing.

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So you had that pressure as well.

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Then of course as some of the key leaders in the mural world began to look

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and said yeah murals are great. I've been doing them for a while, but I need to also get recognition for it.

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I mean as an artist they begin to worry more about their canvases

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and slowly they begin to leave the mural behind.

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And what's happening is you have less muralists, active, strong muralists

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going at it than ever before. Of course you still have the Walker

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who lost a mural a year or so. You still have what's the other black artist?

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Katarandes, those are murals.

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Yeah, but those artists have been represented by galleries

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and those artists are doing really, really well. They've been claimed for being great

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masters. No, very little. And the reason they're getting a claim

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is because they've been at it for such a long time that eventually people begin to take notice.

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I feel like that show of the Walkers that was traveling around, but it was in the social sciences building

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of UC. You told me to go upstairs. That's what I'm saying.

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So if you decide to go totally public art, the chances are that you're never going to be recognized

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by the mainstream as a serious artist.

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Too incompatible, certainly.

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So what I personally did is I felt it was very important for me to make the contributions

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and to do something. I always felt very compelled to do something for the neighborhood,

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for the people and so forth. And I gave free classes at the murals,

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I gave free artwork, gave away t-shirts and what have you

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for a long time, continuously.

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I do it, but not as much. And now I'm getting to the point where some non-proposal

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said, will you give me a piece of artwork? I said, yes, I will. You pay 50% of the cost

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and another 50% you give away. But no more fees.

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And the reason I do that is not taking it serious. Anything that is really

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I hate to say, is not taking it as being important.

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Just say, yeah, I'm willing to donate. You have to pay for 50%

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that will give me back the supplies and so on my time and work and the rest of it you can keep.

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And I tell other artists to do the same.

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Because we cannot contribute to give, give, give, give and then get very little back.

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For instance, I know artists who contribute hell of a lot

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from their time, work and artistic talent, what have you,

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to community agencies. And when those community agencies were able to get the money to pay,

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they were the last one that saw it. Because it was freebies.

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You never think of paying anyone you can get for free.

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Other professions may not be asked to contribute as much to the artist to examine people.

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To understand what an artist does or think of their work.

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But look how fascinating. Most people have no problem paying a band

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to come and perform. No problems. They may try to get so many surprises

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and they may try to get one for free. But overall they're willing to pay a band.

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But they're not willing to pay an artist to show their artwork. And that's something that I did.

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Check this out. We had a festival called Festival Por Igua.

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And they asked me to do the exhibition to put it together. Fine, I'll do it.

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There's only one thing. The artist has got to be paid.

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We had to give them at least $50 for their inconvenience

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in bringing the artwork so they can go ahead and frame

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a piece at one, get some lunch. Otherwise

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I wouldn't do it. So all the artists got to be paid. Then years later

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I did a show with the Pan American Festival.

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All the artists got $300. I did a show with Harry's Bank.

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All the artists got $200. The second time, the following year

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I was not able to pay them, but they all got a colored portfolio.

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And they got their resumes done so they can use it. See the difference? Here I am trying

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to give something back to the artists for us having the honor

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of showing their artwork. I give them a place. They're important. A lot of people didn't like that.

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Because usually artists pay. And you know artists pay to show their artwork

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in fairs? Sure.

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Artists pay to show their artwork.

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See what I was trying to get is people thinking

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you're going to benefit by having the art here. People enjoy it.

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They like it. They do music. They do public relations. The artwork gets damaged.

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They transport things of that nature. Hey, let's give something to the artists. Why not?

295
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We pay the musicians. The musicians also make records and sell them.

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So the artists make paintings and sell them. What's the difference? You still pay the musicians.

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And then what they're trying to do is say well the artists can

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come and show their artwork but we get a percentage of what they sell. They never ask the musician

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well you can come and play and promote yourself at our festival but you know watch yourself the record

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we want a percentage of it. And they say no, no, no, no. They got all this wrong.

301
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And of course the problem is artists don't control their money.

302
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Investors, galleries, and no artists control their money.

303
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So really in a way I can see there's a big difference between public art on the walls

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like the murals. There shouldn't be. I think

305
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that public art is fantastic. Some great pieces that enhance values and artistic.

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But what happened in

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Mexico when Derozco, Ezequitos

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and Andres Rivera was doing that big movement. Did they get recognition?

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No. Look at that. I can read you an art history book.

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They have the little thing, a little picture about Erozco, a painting or a mural

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and a little extra about the mural movement in Mexico.

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That's all you get in art history. So it was like some, and it was a major movement.

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It was a very serious movement that has tremendous value.

314
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Still the art world doesn't recognize it.

315
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I think it's starting to move. After you die,

316
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come on, look at what's his name?

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This guy, the bango. Nobody wanted him. Nobody wanted to show his work.

318
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Now everybody is paying millions of dollars for their art. Why does it take Picasso

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to paint African artwork to say well African work has a value?

320
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We should recognize it now because Picasso, a white person

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by the way, says it's okay. African work

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always has its value. It wasn't any better, any less when Picasso came to be.

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But see how the world and mainstream, how it thinks.

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That's why you have tremendous problems you have now

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in New York where now art is becoming that fashion.

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You know how the fashion, one month everybody is wearing something that's going to change?

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But one month everybody is into Neo Geo,

328
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you know, whatever, and then next week everybody runs over here and buys over here.

329
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And the next thing, the new wave

330
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is artists, well it's nothing new, it goes back way back

331
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when Michael Adams was people, is artists have people who

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this guy was an article that has a team of people, three or four people

333
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he pays to come over and do his co-paintings.

334
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What will sell? He has another team of people

335
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who begin to develop the idea on the campus.

336
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And then the artist, well sure he does, then the artist

337
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he comes and says okay let's do this, this

338
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next, he stands there where he's coming, but the next one comes in

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over here, okay there and there.

340
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Next, guys making millions, making money left

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and right.

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What about this guy, who just

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this guy who was doing an idea which I think is great, he was doing

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paintings of women who were contemplating suicide.

345
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I thought that was great, that's a great subject matter.

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How they look like, what's the intensity of a woman who's thinking

347
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seriously, didn't go anywhere.

348
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So for a friend he went and did a little painting of a reproduction of the castle.

349
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Everybody liked it, people could come and say will you do me a reproduction?

350
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You know what he's doing now? Reproductions of bread masters. He's making an

351
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abundant of money, he just came on the art magazines, he has pictures of castles

352
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and other people, he's doing great.

353
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Well don't you think, I mean in a way, I don't know, maybe I haven't adequate in view, but

354
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in a way you're really limited sort of by public taste.

355
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Maybe you'd rather continue doing women contemplating suicide.

356
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I mean in a sense, I can see where to make money. You have to survive, well that's why.

357
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You have to live by what people will buy versus what you maybe really are interested in.

358
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You're limited by the market, but then who controls the market?

359
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The buyers, the family.

360
00:24:04.280 --> 00:24:08.380
Most people who come into a gallery to buy a painting

361
00:24:09.140 --> 00:24:12.640
would come in and buy one painting for their apartment

362
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:16.440
they want to have an original, especially now that you have a lot of Japanese

363
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I mean, I'm not happy with somebody's apartment, those kind of things.

364
00:24:19.420 --> 00:24:23.880
Even if it's a non-person, but at least you've got an original, or local artist

365
00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:27.240
and what have you. If I want, maybe if you have a Manchester floor,

366
00:24:27.380 --> 00:24:31.800
maybe I buy two, and that's it. Those paintings will be like your furniture, wherever you go

367
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they go with you and their family. Sears collectors buy

368
00:24:35.800 --> 00:24:39.860
a number of paintings. And they have large

369
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spaces in their collectors to really show to all their friends, their business

370
00:24:43.580 --> 00:24:46.360
and what have you, and also they buy and sell.

371
00:24:46.360 --> 00:24:50.240
And what a lot of times happens is that they decide

372
00:24:51.080 --> 00:24:54.100
well, this guy is moving up and selling a few paintings

373
00:24:54.100 --> 00:24:57.960
his name is Oscar Martinez, his family. His prices are livable now.

374
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.060
Let's buy! They come in and they buy like crazy.

375
00:25:02.580 --> 00:25:06.620
I mean, I can't even produce anymore because they're sold even before they get

376
00:25:06.620 --> 00:25:10.720
to the market. Demand. They already got all this, and the demand

377
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:15.000
increases and people want my work. And I cannot produce enough, guess who has

378
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:19.400
a number of them that they can sell for, you know, up there in the prices. Only pay $2,000

379
00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:23.260
$10,000 a piece, $30,000 a piece. Who's going to make the money?

380
00:25:23.900 --> 00:25:26.800
Everybody wants one. It's not enough to go around

381
00:25:27.500 --> 00:25:28.480
hey, I have a few.

382
00:25:32.300 --> 00:25:35.900
And they sell the pieces and they make a bundle of money. And they make sure that you make it.

383
00:25:36.760 --> 00:25:39.420
And in certain sectors it's a big fat

384
00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:43.580
in thing. So they decide. Do you feel you have to sacrifice your art for them?

385
00:25:44.100 --> 00:25:46.700
Or do you feel that's just sounding like a good question to ask?

386
00:25:48.120 --> 00:25:51.500
Well, my feeling, even when I was in college I had that feeling.

387
00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:55.940
Because of the second amount of things I was thinking at that time, I felt that I was not

388
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going to paint things that were demanding of the market.

389
00:25:59.760 --> 00:26:04.280
And the only way I could do that was by limiting my trying to paint, which is kind of sad.

390
00:26:04.560 --> 00:26:07.920
And to have a job that I can support myself and I can tell everybody

391
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.920
go to hell. Not only pay a price, I mean everybody

392
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:16.020
wants to go full time. That's how we like to. Produce artwork and sell.

393
00:26:17.040 --> 00:26:19.540
Maybe some of these things happen because Hispanic art is happening now

394
00:26:19.540 --> 00:26:23.620
and they're looking for people who are more mature. It just happened that this gallery over here

395
00:26:23.620 --> 00:26:26.540
is happening to Paul Sierra.

396
00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:31.520
Paul Sierra now is beginning to develop a demand. It already happened to

397
00:26:31.520 --> 00:26:34.320
Orlando Roche. Well, he's being wasted.

398
00:26:35.180 --> 00:26:39.680
Well, it's also remembered. He's good. It's obvious. But also one should get that momentum.

399
00:26:41.040 --> 00:26:43.520
Sure. Once people start saying that somebody is good,

400
00:26:43.840 --> 00:26:46.520
it's almost like this movie that came out of something that rabbit.

401
00:26:48.660 --> 00:26:49.960
I went to see the movie.

402
00:26:51.260 --> 00:26:55.020
It turned out it was a fantastic movie. Story wise,

403
00:26:56.540 --> 00:26:59.860
it's not a big deal. But once you get into that thing

404
00:26:59.860 --> 00:27:03.020
and it's good and everybody jumped into the bandwagon,

405
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.860
Jesus, you know, you got the market. And if an album knows how to use that

406
00:27:07.860 --> 00:27:12.080
to its advantage and begin to make his move and begin to look for an entrance in New York

407
00:27:12.080 --> 00:27:15.680
and carry that kind of fame that he's good, that he's good, that he's good.

408
00:27:17.380 --> 00:27:20.040
In less than five years, that guy's going to be really, really

409
00:27:20.040 --> 00:27:20.380
involved.

410
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:27.800
And that's being in the right place at the right time. It doesn't mean that he's the only one

411
00:27:27.800 --> 00:27:31.060
who's good. He's open to the good artists.

412
00:27:31.840 --> 00:27:32.720
Or just there.

413
00:27:34.520 --> 00:27:35.540
This guy,

414
00:27:37.840 --> 00:27:39.940
the guy who's doing sculpture,

415
00:27:41.580 --> 00:27:44.820
50 year old, great artist. He's still struggling.

416
00:27:45.040 --> 00:27:49.100
He's just playing by playing, sculpture by sculpture, by this small number

417
00:27:49.100 --> 00:27:51.020
of people who buy their work.

418
00:27:52.360 --> 00:27:57.060
He's probably been at the right time, the right place. And the funny thing that's happening is

419
00:27:57.060 --> 00:28:01.320
it's happening already in architecture. The personality of the artist

420
00:28:01.900 --> 00:28:04.440
is just as important as the artwork itself.

421
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:09.620
Interesting. Before you can make crazy artists and tell everybody to go to hell,

422
00:28:10.020 --> 00:28:13.240
the client would come and say you can go to hell, I don't care if you buy it or not. And it was

423
00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:17.120
oh, that was cool, right? The artist is really an artist off the wall. I can't do that anymore.

424
00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:22.120
The artist has to be in good public relations, work as well, pick up the champagne,

425
00:28:22.300 --> 00:28:25.120
talk to clients, be nice, go to their houses,

426
00:28:25.760 --> 00:28:28.100
mingle with people. It's changing.

427
00:28:28.100 --> 00:28:31.520
I teach somebody like whatever, I don't think he's going to do that at all.

428
00:28:32.760 --> 00:28:36.760
We've been having that conversation with him right now. My sense is that he's really

429
00:28:36.760 --> 00:28:39.680
sort of the opposite of that.

430
00:28:39.820 --> 00:28:42.380
He really wants to see his work.

431
00:28:42.600 --> 00:28:48.540
Yes, as part of the ego, you want to share. But if you look at

432
00:28:48.540 --> 00:28:51.680
John's work, the ones that he's showing around,

433
00:28:52.260 --> 00:28:56.500
it's not whatsoever what he used to do five, seven years ago.

434
00:28:57.580 --> 00:29:00.060
He does a lot of work that has to do with his family.

435
00:29:00.840 --> 00:29:05.120
He's very quiet, very good, very emotional, very spiritual.

436
00:29:06.380 --> 00:29:09.240
But you don't see a strong political hit

437
00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:10.200
you on the face anymore.

438
00:29:18.120 --> 00:29:23.500
Do you think he's torn about that? That he's the right recognition

439
00:29:23.500 --> 00:29:25.300
of his murals, of his private?

440
00:29:27.260 --> 00:29:31.400
John has always been very realistic. He looks at what's out there, he analyzes it.

441
00:29:31.940 --> 00:29:34.100
You have to remember, John is a historian.

442
00:29:35.360 --> 00:29:40.720
If you forget that, someone like, I tell people, my background is in science.

443
00:29:41.760 --> 00:29:44.680
I have a Bachelor of Science, not in art, in science.

444
00:29:45.740 --> 00:29:48.300
He really does have more courses in science

445
00:29:48.300 --> 00:29:52.400
than I have in art. And the same thing with John Weber. He's a historian.

446
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:57.160
He has talent, he's an artist too. But people say, you can be to things. Sure you can be.

447
00:29:58.380 --> 00:30:00.860
Lawyers do it all the time. They run for politics.

448
00:30:00.940 --> 00:30:04.260
Can you buy your lawyers from them for politics? That's a conflict of interest.

449
00:30:04.300 --> 00:30:06.860
They know all the laws. So they're biased already.

450
00:30:09.280 --> 00:30:13.600
Some people say lawyers should be the one because they know the laws.

451
00:30:13.660 --> 00:30:16.280
Maybe not. They're already biased, they already got opinions.

452
00:30:17.280 --> 00:30:21.600
Maybe you need people who are not in law background so they can look at the whole aspect of things.

453
00:30:21.600 --> 00:30:25.080
And also the sociological, moral part of it.

454
00:30:25.260 --> 00:30:29.000
Not the logical law, legal. That's the word people.

455
00:30:29.820 --> 00:30:33.240
Lawyers are not people. People. But you know what I'm saying?

456
00:30:33.560 --> 00:30:35.620
You need people who are people oriented.

457
00:30:36.300 --> 00:30:38.080
But no, we say lawyers should be the one.

458
00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:45.000
Could you tell us a story when we were on the mural tour?

459
00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:49.260
You told a story about a woman who came up to you and told you how much she liked you.

460
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:51.420
Yeah, I was...

461
00:30:53.140 --> 00:30:58.500
I did a very...that was my strongest political statement. I wanted to go all out politically.

462
00:30:59.040 --> 00:31:00.560
I felt at that time I was more radical.

463
00:31:00.780 --> 00:31:04.800
John is not doing it. All these people are scared to go strong. I ain't gonna do it.

464
00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:06.420
So I'm gonna do a mural.

465
00:31:20.320 --> 00:31:23.560
Something I should show you that...

466
00:31:24.340 --> 00:31:26.240
Let me see if it's back here.

467
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:30.580
Centennial.

468
00:31:33.320 --> 00:31:36.080
And everybody at that time was glorifying

469
00:31:36.080 --> 00:31:38.720
the U.S. Which is nothing wrong with it.

470
00:31:40.060 --> 00:31:43.520
But it appeared to me one time that this was so

471
00:31:43.520 --> 00:31:46.760
overdone and there were so many problems.

472
00:31:46.760 --> 00:31:50.680
You know, they were homeless at that time. It wasn't

473
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:54.440
as bad as they can get the recognition it gets now. Drop times was all over the place.

474
00:31:54.560 --> 00:31:58.060
And everyone was doing a painting that was real bad and everyone was getting better now.

475
00:31:58.820 --> 00:32:01.800
Lincoln Park over there by the next to the ballgame.

476
00:32:03.360 --> 00:32:06.580
So I decided to do...

477
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:09.520
It's almost like an anti-Bicentennial mural.

478
00:32:11.060 --> 00:32:14.900
And I don't remember if I called. If I have the title, let's see if I can handle that.

479
00:32:14.900 --> 00:32:18.760
No, it doesn't have a title.

480
00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:23.000
But anyway, this guy was a sociologist.

481
00:32:23.600 --> 00:32:25.460
Kenneth Smith. I don't know if you've heard of him.

482
00:32:27.160 --> 00:32:27.960
Kenneth Henry.

483
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:31.760
Anyway.

484
00:32:35.540 --> 00:32:39.420
He did a book called Social Problems. And he decided to use

485
00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:40.060
my mural.

486
00:32:40.700 --> 00:32:42.020
I remember seeing it.

487
00:32:44.940 --> 00:32:47.940
Now the reason it's all messed up

488
00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:52.180
you can tell was that this older person decided

489
00:32:52.180 --> 00:32:55.340
to vandalize it because it was anti-...

490
00:32:55.340 --> 00:32:58.400
He didn't like it. The police looked a little bit like pigs.

491
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:02.520
Here's the eagle, the United States eagle with money all over the place.

492
00:33:02.800 --> 00:33:08.100
This is a guy on top of this section here

493
00:33:08.100 --> 00:33:12.060
with chains grabbed all over the place. And it is problems

494
00:33:12.060 --> 00:33:13.400
in the family, health,

495
00:33:16.780 --> 00:33:20.300
how they used to kiss in the games and what have you. The quiet struggle.

496
00:33:20.980 --> 00:33:22.620
The killing, the cook has gone.

497
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:28.480
The struggle used to live. And you can tell somebody came up

498
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:31.640
painting it on top of that and they put spray in certain areas.

499
00:33:32.460 --> 00:33:36.280
Anyway, they decided to use it on the cover which is a hell of a compliment.

500
00:33:36.280 --> 00:33:37.840
Oh yeah.

501
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:42.900
This is ACLU united by Congress.

502
00:33:44.300 --> 00:33:45.720
That's graffiti on the wall.

503
00:33:47.460 --> 00:33:49.920
So what was the story about the mural?

504
00:33:50.120 --> 00:33:55.840
Well this mural was there for a number of years. It wasn't a real large one.

505
00:33:56.920 --> 00:34:01.120
I was using other formulas that are near from

506
00:34:01.820 --> 00:34:02.960
other murals.

507
00:34:03.540 --> 00:34:07.820
And that is that we were doing, if you look at it,

508
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:10.860
we were doing things which are pretty. Which are what? Pretty.

509
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:14.960
And safe and colorful and nice that everybody was going to like.

510
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:19.000
And be able to live with. I decided to do dark,

511
00:34:20.740 --> 00:34:22.540
ugly, strong, depressing

512
00:34:23.020 --> 00:34:27.120
to get my message across. And of course a lot of people saw the trains to go by there.

513
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:31.280
But anyway, this young woman at the last summer

514
00:34:32.580 --> 00:34:35.760
festival happened to come and see the exhibition by accident.

515
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:39.340
Came in and recognized my name.

516
00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:43.580
She lived in the neighborhood.

517
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:48.000
And she came up to me

518
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:52.000
and said, you know what, I've been dying to meet you

519
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:55.840
for a very, very long time. You're asking my things, right?

520
00:34:55.980 --> 00:34:59.480
And I go, ooh. And I said yes.

521
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:01.960
And she said, well you were the one who did the mural over there.

522
00:35:02.080 --> 00:35:07.540
And I said, yes. And she said, well I've been dying to tell you how much

523
00:35:07.540 --> 00:35:11.380
of an impact that had on my life. I used to go by there every day

524
00:35:11.380 --> 00:35:15.600
and look at the mural all the time. And that mural grew as I grew.

525
00:35:16.120 --> 00:35:18.840
Not only just physically, but also intellectually.

526
00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:23.260
And it's such a, I suffered so much when they painted it.

527
00:35:23.380 --> 00:35:25.220
Because it was so much part of my life.

528
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:29.480
And it's fascinating how

529
00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:32.940
a painting, even something like this that was so strong and negative

530
00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:37.380
can have such an impact on someone. Just a painting. That they felt

531
00:35:37.380 --> 00:35:41.220
good about something and that had an effect on them in terms of the way the soul, their itself

532
00:35:41.220 --> 00:35:45.340
things around them, questioning things. And the mural

533
00:35:45.340 --> 00:35:49.400
that looked like this became something of beauty versus ugly.

534
00:35:49.820 --> 00:35:53.020
Because it makes you think, it makes you expand, it makes you look for other things.

535
00:35:53.020 --> 00:35:57.100
And I think that was fascinating. After so many years, I mean 76

536
00:35:57.100 --> 00:36:01.480
that's over ten years ago, that somebody would come up to me and say

537
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:04.960
And she'll carry that mural with her always. And she was not Hispanic.

538
00:36:05.640 --> 00:36:09.020
She was a white lady from the area. Which is even

539
00:36:09.020 --> 00:36:13.540
for me was even more like, you know, because you said well Hispanic

540
00:36:13.540 --> 00:36:16.820
because my name is, you know, I like him. So

541
00:36:16.820 --> 00:36:21.020
that was one example that I may like. And I was

542
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:26.980
That took me by surprise. I was not expecting it that way.

543
00:36:27.660 --> 00:36:30.760
So many years later. So murals do have an impact.

544
00:36:31.340 --> 00:36:34.100
And still people come up to me and say

545
00:36:34.100 --> 00:36:38.800
You were the one who did substance social media. Or there was a conversation

546
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:41.220
that I was sitting with someone about four years ago.

547
00:36:44.940 --> 00:36:46.940
And we were talking, we didn't introduce ourselves,

548
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:50.280
we were talking about things, you know, because the party was boring.

549
00:36:50.820 --> 00:36:53.980
And then we started talking about art. And

550
00:36:53.980 --> 00:36:57.840
I said what do you like about trans-bar? She brought the subject up.

551
00:36:58.120 --> 00:37:01.220
And I said I like this, I like that. And especially like this guy's work.

552
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:05.340
And I think it's great. Some of the murals say yeah, who is that? And I say ask for Martinez.

553
00:37:05.740 --> 00:37:10.860
And it's such an embarrassing moment. You know, you get a rush like that.

554
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:15.400
Then you don't dare, you're so curious, you don't know more what you have to say about this guy, right?

555
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:18.500
And then you go on and say well what is so interesting?

556
00:37:18.500 --> 00:37:22.920
And then you get more embarrassed because she had told you what she thinks about the guy in terms of his artwork.

557
00:37:23.520 --> 00:37:27.080
And you are the person, right? So it is

558
00:37:27.080 --> 00:37:31.360
weird to put down a user's face in it. And then they happened to me another time

559
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:34.300
and did a mural in Champaign, Urbana. I think it's the only,

560
00:37:34.700 --> 00:37:39.500
it's two murals in Champaign at the university. One that is a very old

561
00:37:39.500 --> 00:37:43.260
mural done during the WPA.

562
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:45.580
And mine.

563
00:37:47.500 --> 00:37:49.740
And I was at a party someplace

564
00:37:50.220 --> 00:37:54.360
and I was talking to this person and he told me he went to Champaign.

565
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:58.660
So yeah, what do you like about Champaign? I like this and I like the cultural center.

566
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:02.380
And we had this great mural. It's just you have to see it.

567
00:38:02.380 --> 00:38:06.560
It's the best mural around. And I stand in there and somebody comes and says

568
00:38:06.560 --> 00:38:09.320
he's the one who did it. It's like you?

569
00:38:10.260 --> 00:38:12.500
You did it? And it's like yeah.

570
00:38:14.240 --> 00:38:17.460
So those little things happen a lot. I'm sure it happens to John where people

571
00:38:17.460 --> 00:38:21.340
really react and they feel close because they made with it. Like they wanted

572
00:38:21.340 --> 00:38:25.340
the church. I mean even though you want obviously recognition in a more

573
00:38:25.340 --> 00:38:29.560
wider public level. I mean to get that kind of recognition, that in a way

574
00:38:29.560 --> 00:38:32.600
in some sense is more thrilling. It is.

575
00:38:33.580 --> 00:38:37.820
I'm not saying it's not going to be in a gallery, but to know in a sense that

576
00:38:37.820 --> 00:38:40.620
you've changed how people have lived their lives maybe a little bit.

577
00:38:40.620 --> 00:38:44.300
But it's also a struggle that you have to go through.

578
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:49.100
It's almost like having the opportunities.

579
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:53.360
It's almost like what we're talking about is having the opportunity

580
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:55.560
to do what your imagination allows.

581
00:38:56.660 --> 00:39:00.680
To be able to show in galleries. To be able to do some great murals.

582
00:39:01.260 --> 00:39:05.100
To be able to interact with people. I mean to have this opportunity.

583
00:39:05.220 --> 00:39:08.900
When you have a system where they're trying to stop you from

584
00:39:08.900 --> 00:39:13.160
doing all of that. Then you really begin to develop a struggle of opposites.

585
00:39:13.640 --> 00:39:16.200
And then what you have to do is keep it in perspective.

586
00:39:17.060 --> 00:39:20.780
And really realize what each of the things really are.

587
00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:25.060
And be able to separate their political nature and what they mean so that you continue

588
00:39:25.060 --> 00:39:28.580
to keep your solid base on who you are and what you're all about.

589
00:39:28.980 --> 00:39:32.940
This is something that I always tell people. I don't allow

590
00:39:32.940 --> 00:39:37.120
other people to define who I am. I define

591
00:39:37.120 --> 00:39:41.460
who I am. And once you define who you are

592
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:45.480
then you have that plateau to do whatever you want. Of course you're

593
00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:49.640
going to have the struggle that people are not going to allow you to do certain things. But then that's part of

594
00:39:49.640 --> 00:39:51.880
the struggle of anything that you do.

595
00:39:53.200 --> 00:39:56.820
So when you know what to define that's when you have this paradox where

596
00:39:57.240 --> 00:40:01.660
I'm an artist if I do murals. I never had those problems. The problem that I have now

597
00:40:01.660 --> 00:40:05.440
is I don't have time to do murals. I would like to but I just don't have time.

598
00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:10.020
So I have to make a choice. So the choice was I wanted to do more

599
00:40:10.020 --> 00:40:13.940
HESO which is more realistic. And then do the other social things

600
00:40:13.940 --> 00:40:15.380
that I do in my job.

601
00:40:15.820 --> 00:40:21.560
That might change right? Well I think it would change. I never had a thousand

602
00:40:21.560 --> 00:40:26.380
change in terms of my work being recognized and me having a niche.

603
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:30.060
It's not a confess. It's more

604
00:40:30.060 --> 00:40:33.820
of a struggle than most of the people. But that's part of the whole forming.

605
00:40:33.820 --> 00:40:37.620
You never give up. You add it and you add it and you add it and

606
00:40:37.620 --> 00:40:41.040
you know they kick you down and you get up and continue to fight.

607
00:40:41.460 --> 00:40:45.720
What about you know when you work all day do you ever spend any time thinking about painting while you're working?

608
00:40:46.380 --> 00:40:48.980
How do you recognize it? Just shut it off.

609
00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:54.100
One time years back one of the

610
00:40:54.100 --> 00:40:57.220
dentists who made a deal. He was going to give me space in the basement

611
00:40:58.100 --> 00:41:02.040
get the supplies and I would do medical illustration

612
00:41:02.040 --> 00:41:06.300
for him. Meantime since I had space during lunch

613
00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:10.240
I would run downstairs and paint. I wrote some small

614
00:41:10.240 --> 00:41:14.200
canvases. Yeah an hour. It would be great. Great way

615
00:41:14.200 --> 00:41:16.680
to relax. A little sandwich on one side and hang with the other.

616
00:41:20.240 --> 00:41:21.880
When I used to go down to the basement

617
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:26.300
it would take me about a good fifteen minutes for me to be

618
00:41:26.300 --> 00:41:29.700
able to start painting. I couldn't get into it.

619
00:41:32.300 --> 00:41:33.940
I would start painting

620
00:41:33.940 --> 00:41:35.820
I would get a call from my secretary.

621
00:41:36.040 --> 00:41:40.780
It was like ah! And then I couldn't go back.

622
00:41:41.640 --> 00:41:45.980
So after going through that struggle I realized that something very interesting happened and I began to analyze

623
00:41:45.980 --> 00:41:49.360
and that's why I know about it because I didn't know why this was happening. It made no sense.

624
00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:01.040
I'm doing an interview.

625
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:07.620
What I learned is that there's a chip

626
00:42:07.620 --> 00:42:11.420
I colored a chip and I heard that someplace I think. Oh when I took Neuron out of me.

627
00:42:11.680 --> 00:42:16.880
There's a chip. And what I mean by chip is people talk about art and being able to see.

628
00:42:18.660 --> 00:42:19.880
Seeing is you hear that about art.

629
00:42:20.040 --> 00:42:24.200
What does that mean? Seeing is very important. It means perceiving

630
00:42:26.020 --> 00:42:28.380
something in a different mode of thinking.

631
00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:33.000
It's almost like you get up in the morning and you have some

632
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:37.680
problems or something and you're going to work and what have you. Life doesn't look so happy.

633
00:42:38.380 --> 00:42:41.200
You're like chipped somehow thinking differently with the press and the bow.

634
00:42:41.860 --> 00:42:45.240
You win the lottery or something great happens and you're laughing and you're so happy

635
00:42:45.240 --> 00:42:47.280
what a great life. Your chipped again.

636
00:42:49.560 --> 00:42:53.140
And you paint and something happens. I think it's more

637
00:42:53.140 --> 00:42:57.040
in terms of right, left, right, hemisphere. What I do as a work is all

638
00:42:58.940 --> 00:42:59.660
left hemisphere.

639
00:43:01.520 --> 00:43:04.240
One of the things that I have problems with is remembering people's names.

640
00:43:06.620 --> 00:43:09.980
I tried to find out and I said what I have found out is most

641
00:43:09.980 --> 00:43:12.840
in a lot of artists who tend to be very absent minded.

642
00:43:14.720 --> 00:43:17.320
An adult or a chipped has got to be one of the worst. You're telling your name

643
00:43:17.320 --> 00:43:21.860
in five seconds and you don't even remember. Not as bad but I'm bad as well.

644
00:43:23.680 --> 00:43:25.340
And what happened was there was

645
00:43:25.340 --> 00:43:29.560
they needed to be at distance. When I get up in the morning, take a shower and dress and put on my tie,

646
00:43:29.980 --> 00:43:32.720
I already managed to chip on one side thinking one way,

647
00:43:33.080 --> 00:43:37.360
understand the path is when I'm going to face, how to go about it, how to

648
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:41.560
plan the day and how to deal with everything. I'm content and I think I do very well

649
00:43:41.560 --> 00:43:45.260
at that. By the time I did work and been traveling here,

650
00:43:45.340 --> 00:43:49.020
I already had chipped into my clothes. For instance, I can give you a real funny

651
00:43:49.900 --> 00:43:53.540
and say that I was seeing someone for a while

652
00:43:54.140 --> 00:43:56.600
and this person knew me as an artist.

653
00:43:58.660 --> 00:44:01.880
Making jokes about everything, doing things because she

654
00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:04.320
used to say I was crazy or weird and stuff like that.

655
00:44:05.340 --> 00:44:09.820
And then I made the mistake, I invited her to a function which was political in nature.

656
00:44:10.820 --> 00:44:12.100
It was cultural thing, it was very political.

657
00:44:13.820 --> 00:44:17.440
And of course, I chipped into my political side which she never seen before.

658
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:21.360
So she saw me dealing with people in certain ways, talking about this and that,

659
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:25.840
and she was a young woman and she was having problems

660
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:29.000
and said what's wrong with you? She said there's nothing wrong with me.

661
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:32.380
I was not aware, I just didn't ask her, she comes second hand.

662
00:44:33.820 --> 00:44:37.000
And then the highlight of the whole thing was we were standing by the door,

663
00:44:37.220 --> 00:44:40.740
mayor of Washington walked in, he came and said hi, ask her how you doing, how you doing,

664
00:44:41.240 --> 00:44:45.520
and walked right by and was like, you're not here.

665
00:44:46.380 --> 00:44:49.260
I said, shit, how? It's my mayor, your mayor.

666
00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:55.300
But the shot was, seeing the developed personality, how I'd say we'd go one year.

667
00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:57.540
So there is,

668
00:44:57.560 --> 00:45:01.400
obviously there is a big difference. There is a financial chip.

669
00:45:01.540 --> 00:45:03.860
And I think most artists that are able to do that said they don't want to bother.

670
00:45:05.780 --> 00:45:09.420
We tend to want to get really sucked into the art and do it.

671
00:45:10.060 --> 00:45:13.000
It's a different perception, it's a very interesting thing how

672
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:17.520
in middle of the island it's different from the main population. But there is a different

673
00:45:17.520 --> 00:45:21.880
people thinking that people can develop and they don't bother to develop their artists for one reason or another.

674
00:45:22.220 --> 00:45:26.140
They're born or just developed one way and that's able to see the different realities.

675
00:45:27.600 --> 00:45:30.400
So it doesn't, and then when you do murals,

676
00:45:31.120 --> 00:45:34.160
you're continuously fighting that and that's something that I'm getting back into

677
00:45:34.160 --> 00:45:38.040
the political, social versus the artistic, which they all can be the same.

678
00:45:38.780 --> 00:45:42.080
But this political social demands that you have a certain way of thinking

679
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:45.700
about yourself, your environment, and how you see art.

680
00:45:46.420 --> 00:45:49.800
John Porter was very easy because he has a background in history.

681
00:45:51.080 --> 00:45:54.620
Some of the Hispanic and Black artists have a background of mystery

682
00:45:54.620 --> 00:45:58.140
in terms of what they've seen and gone through. They've been in a poor neighborhood

683
00:45:58.140 --> 00:46:02.660
and they've grown up so they had that sense of problem. But not everybody

684
00:46:02.660 --> 00:46:06.120
thinks the same way. Not everybody sees a different hero.

685
00:46:06.240 --> 00:46:10.660
It is a different way of thinking.

686
00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:14.540
Any other questions?

687
00:46:14.540 --> 00:46:17.040
Oh yeah.

688
00:46:20.580 --> 00:46:23.340
I'll show you. John gave me the rundown of the history of music.

689
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:27.780
He wanted us to give you some of the history.

690
00:46:27.780 --> 00:46:30.220
Of course that's his version. We'd love to hear yours.

691
00:46:33.580 --> 00:46:36.080
Yeah, yeah. Even though you're all in the same meeting.

692
00:46:37.780 --> 00:46:44.160
Do you think, I was sort of wanting to get back for a couple seconds to the impact on the audience.

693
00:46:44.680 --> 00:46:50.000
Do you feel that the murals that you've done, I mean I'll just, just one moment.

694
00:46:50.160 --> 00:46:53.040
I'll just give you an example. I mean how have, maybe a better question would be how.

695
00:46:53.260 --> 00:46:56.020
How have they changed? That's something that I'm not sure.

696
00:46:56.100 --> 00:47:02.460
I would love to see some very common looking community people.

697
00:47:04.600 --> 00:47:08.100
You know, I'm not, I don't want to talk about middle class poor people.

698
00:47:08.780 --> 00:47:10.840
I mean a bunch to go to their institute.

699
00:47:11.740 --> 00:47:15.820
I would like to see how the administration and the guards would react to them.

700
00:47:16.260 --> 00:47:18.240
I think that would be an interesting experience.

701
00:47:21.380 --> 00:47:27.520
The, those environments for some reason or another don't feel welcoming to a lot of the poor people.

702
00:47:28.860 --> 00:47:36.180
I have an upfront opinion of people who are intelligent, who have a nice job coming up with lines such as

703
00:47:36.180 --> 00:47:38.640
I don't know anything about art so I wouldn't want to stand in.

704
00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:41.740
Say I was going to say that you're welcoming to rich people.

705
00:47:41.940 --> 00:47:44.020
I think people just think they should go there.

706
00:47:44.520 --> 00:47:47.420
And actually, you know, the things you can really touch.

707
00:47:47.560 --> 00:47:51.080
Well it has a certain feeling that you don't touch.

708
00:47:51.240 --> 00:47:51.600
Yes.

709
00:47:51.780 --> 00:47:54.620
That you're from out, there's a distance.

710
00:47:55.200 --> 00:48:00.160
I just like to see art on the walls as art that belongs to the community.

711
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:01.540
That becomes part of the community.

712
00:48:01.540 --> 00:48:04.900
I don't feel that way personally when I go see a community.

713
00:48:05.080 --> 00:48:06.580
I mean they're paying me, I like them a lot.

714
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:11.080
But I don't feel that that belongs to me the same way that I might feel.

715
00:48:11.200 --> 00:48:11.940
A joke belongs to me.

716
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:16.880
You hear a joke, you can retell the joke, you can change the joke, it becomes your joke in a way.

717
00:48:17.380 --> 00:48:18.400
Let me give you a little.

718
00:48:18.420 --> 00:48:20.040
I think the middle is kind of on that thing.

719
00:48:20.160 --> 00:48:24.280
Well let me give you how I saw the problem of these people who told me it was from the Harris bank.

720
00:48:25.540 --> 00:48:30.620
That they didn't understand art and of course artists seemed kind of aliens to them to some extent.

721
00:48:30.620 --> 00:48:35.820
They felt stupid asking questions about what does that do and so forth.

722
00:48:36.240 --> 00:48:37.500
They were following it.

723
00:48:38.460 --> 00:48:42.020
So what I did, I took a group of them and went to visit each of the artists.

724
00:48:43.200 --> 00:48:49.740
And we came in and we talked and I'm actually going to make some jokes and laugh and talk about this and the artists talk about that.

725
00:48:50.060 --> 00:48:51.460
And someone realized this is people.

726
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:53.460
We can actually talk to them.

727
00:48:53.780 --> 00:48:55.080
They communicate that.

728
00:48:55.540 --> 00:48:59.320
And before you know it they were asking the artists, well they presented me with two personal questions.

729
00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:00.560
We don't put this here symbolic.

730
00:49:00.700 --> 00:49:01.600
What is that supposed to mean?

731
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:03.080
What do you think that over there?

732
00:49:03.620 --> 00:49:05.820
And the artists love explaining it.

733
00:49:05.900 --> 00:49:06.860
They got into it.

734
00:49:07.460 --> 00:49:10.780
Suddenly these people felt that the art was not something alien.

735
00:49:10.940 --> 00:49:12.520
They were part of themselves as well.

736
00:49:12.640 --> 00:49:15.980
They got close to it and asked questions about it.

737
00:49:16.180 --> 00:49:17.820
So the art became something different.

738
00:49:18.160 --> 00:49:20.020
Same thing happens with murals.

739
00:49:20.340 --> 00:49:22.860
When you're able to go and see the world develop.

740
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:25.760
When you're able to go up to the artist and ask questions they will answer it.

741
00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:30.300
When you become part of the process of designing and the designs and things of that nature.

742
00:49:31.220 --> 00:49:34.320
Then you can help people become, you feel it's part of you.

743
00:49:35.300 --> 00:49:36.120
It's the involvement.

744
00:49:36.560 --> 00:49:40.760
So you have to remember as artists we say, put ourselves in place.

745
00:49:41.540 --> 00:49:42.520
You don't see us working.

746
00:49:42.600 --> 00:49:43.640
You don't talk to us.

747
00:49:43.900 --> 00:49:48.520
When you go to a gallery, artworks up there, the artists up here, everybody's around the artist.

748
00:49:49.180 --> 00:49:52.140
So you say, God I don't have time to find that.

749
00:49:52.340 --> 00:49:55.460
But it doesn't mean you can't appreciate it and enjoy it.

750
00:49:55.460 --> 00:49:58.760
But you feel this perception that it's rich.

751
00:49:59.620 --> 00:50:00.820
That's going to cause an anomaly.

752
00:50:00.980 --> 00:50:01.660
Which it does.

753
00:50:02.640 --> 00:50:04.640
But it creates a distance.

754
00:50:05.160 --> 00:50:07.980
Sometimes you don't have the doorway to understand the work.

755
00:50:08.100 --> 00:50:09.640
Like how to start breaking it open.

756
00:50:10.180 --> 00:50:13.400
But then the minute you do get the first thing it starts to take you apart.

757
00:50:13.600 --> 00:50:15.380
So I understand that.

758
00:50:15.900 --> 00:50:20.780
That's why the writing in terms of the introduction and talking to the artist becomes so crucial.

759
00:50:21.340 --> 00:50:23.500
Because you have to have the reaction of the person who created it.

760
00:50:24.080 --> 00:50:27.980
I think the symbols in murals, I didn't even go through all the murals.

761
00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:33.540
The symbols seem more accessible to me than a lot of private art.

762
00:50:34.060 --> 00:50:35.420
At least I can recognize them.

763
00:50:36.660 --> 00:50:39.340
Because we do that on purpose.

764
00:50:39.680 --> 00:50:42.920
We are aware of which are the symbolic that work with the public.

765
00:50:43.240 --> 00:50:45.160
We are aware of the symbols that they will understand.

766
00:50:45.980 --> 00:50:50.200
They are plain, simple, direct, easy to pick up.

767
00:50:50.200 --> 00:50:51.620
And it tells a story.

768
00:50:52.020 --> 00:50:55.360
And even if you don't pick it up in terms of every single essence of the mural.

769
00:50:55.880 --> 00:50:58.720
You get the feeling that something beautiful is happening there.

770
00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:00.540
Something that relates to you.

771
00:51:00.700 --> 00:51:02.220
That you see yourself in the mural.

772
00:51:02.500 --> 00:51:03.640
You live in the neighborhood.

773
00:51:04.080 --> 00:51:05.140
You went by there and saw it.

774
00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:06.600
It developed slowly.

775
00:51:07.180 --> 00:51:08.320
That became exciting.

776
00:51:11.180 --> 00:51:12.520
That's great to see.

777
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:18.420
I have friends who are close to certain murals.

778
00:51:18.420 --> 00:51:21.500
The reason they are close to some of them is because they come here and they saw the painting.

779
00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:24.680
They got going and explained it to them and what have you.

780
00:51:25.080 --> 00:51:27.460
And slowly they got close to the painting.

781
00:51:28.140 --> 00:51:29.660
And they felt the painting was part of it.

782
00:51:29.900 --> 00:51:30.540
It's not changing.

783
00:51:31.680 --> 00:51:32.860
On my own closer side.

784
00:51:34.160 --> 00:51:34.740
It's a happy.

785
00:51:35.420 --> 00:51:35.940
It's a happy.

786
00:51:38.260 --> 00:51:44.080
Also, that's the other thing that murals seem to use for cultural standards.

787
00:51:44.080 --> 00:51:46.500
So those are the things from religious.

788
00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:50.040
While artists working at home do have time to develop their own vocabulary.

789
00:51:51.300 --> 00:51:53.980
It's harder to make some things immediately.

790
00:51:54.400 --> 00:51:54.800
Exactly.

791
00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:56.560
To develop a body of art.

792
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:02.340
Because it's a communication to a mass amount of people.

793
00:52:02.540 --> 00:52:04.280
Working with community agencies.

794
00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:07.660
Working with the owners of the world.

795
00:52:08.020 --> 00:52:08.800
And so forth.

796
00:52:09.660 --> 00:52:10.920
Trying to raise the money.

797
00:52:11.620 --> 00:52:17.100
There are so many things that are involved that one should begin to become already complicated.

798
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:18.740
And begin to lose the otherness.

799
00:52:19.780 --> 00:52:20.900
Which is just to be my fight.

800
00:52:24.240 --> 00:52:25.860
Actually, you sometimes do a good job.

801
00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:31.920
I used to get mad that we would sit there and talk about exactly what I'm telling you.

802
00:52:32.860 --> 00:52:34.980
And I'd say, that is bullshit.

803
00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:40.100
Why would we go assuming that people are dumb?

804
00:52:40.100 --> 00:52:45.200
If we out there doing murals assume that they have a tremendous potential for learning.

805
00:52:45.600 --> 00:52:47.160
And let's give it everything we have.

806
00:52:47.500 --> 00:52:49.380
If we don't pick it up now, they eventually pick it up.

807
00:52:49.560 --> 00:52:51.500
We can explain to them whatever we have to do.

808
00:52:51.720 --> 00:52:56.280
But we shouldn't simplify them and think that they think it's simple and look what they do on TV.

809
00:52:57.400 --> 00:53:01.020
If you're talking to them about them, they'll probably really be painful to them.

810
00:53:01.020 --> 00:53:01.920
I was opposed.

811
00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:06.320
I think you should pull intellect and hopefully they will pick it up.

812
00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:09.740
But at least you challenge them to raise from where they're at.

813
00:53:10.020 --> 00:53:12.820
And if they don't fully understand it, they may like the way it looks.

814
00:53:13.580 --> 00:53:16.680
So it's two arguments, keep it simple or make it look like it's dumb?

815
00:53:17.900 --> 00:53:20.920
No, I think the argument is more don't think people are dumb.

816
00:53:21.640 --> 00:53:25.240
As soon as you start saying, we have to keep it simple, we use searches involved.

817
00:53:25.580 --> 00:53:25.580


818
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:28.460
I used to just like that.

819
00:53:28.680 --> 00:53:32.100
Do it at the level that I'm mad, we're going to come to that level, whatever that is.

820
00:53:32.340 --> 00:53:33.780
Don't try to paint down.

821
00:53:33.780 --> 00:53:33.920
Right.

822
00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:37.540
I used to dislike that a lot.

823
00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:39.920
Did you feel like there was painting down?

824
00:53:41.100 --> 00:53:43.180
Well, it was not by intention.

825
00:53:44.040 --> 00:53:50.920
But it certainly was the opening where if you have a mural that is by Main Street,

826
00:53:51.220 --> 00:53:53.920
keep it simple so people can read the message as you continue to drive.

827
00:53:54.580 --> 00:53:57.160
They can just peek at it, understand it, and do what?

828
00:53:58.660 --> 00:54:02.920
I said, listen, if your mural is done good, the people who really want to read the message

829
00:54:02.920 --> 00:54:06.460
will eventually stop, go up to the wall and stare.

830
00:54:08.100 --> 00:54:12.280
If they keep going, the one they're not interested in, they will never be interested

831
00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:14.380
and they know you're going to pick up the message.

832
00:54:14.820 --> 00:54:16.040
So you should look at the mural and keep going.

833
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:21.920
The other thing that I found is that I think a good mural can contain many layers of meaning,

834
00:54:22.460 --> 00:54:23.500
like even a children's book.

835
00:54:24.220 --> 00:54:25.300
To my thinking.

836
00:54:25.620 --> 00:54:28.200
There's the obvious level X, whatever that is.

837
00:54:28.540 --> 00:54:31.840
But this is something that I found, and it's in my book, that every time we go back in fact,

838
00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:32.900
there's more.

839
00:54:33.220 --> 00:54:36.240
So that you don't see all the layers the first time.

840
00:54:36.560 --> 00:54:38.460
You don't read the book or listen to the piece of music.

841
00:54:38.680 --> 00:54:39.960
You're not going to hear everything the first time.

842
00:54:40.260 --> 00:54:44.580
I wanted to do, and I tried so much to do, hidden symbols.

843
00:54:46.200 --> 00:54:46.960
Give me an example.

844
00:54:48.580 --> 00:54:50.380
You're so good at explaining your symbols after.

845
00:54:50.380 --> 00:54:53.960
For instance, the one with the lion, which I didn't explain to you.

846
00:54:55.780 --> 00:55:00.940
On top of her head, there's this big, what do you call that?

847
00:55:03.040 --> 00:55:03.440
Goose.

848
00:55:03.520 --> 00:55:06.040
This white goose. Is it called goose or is it something else?

849
00:55:06.740 --> 00:55:07.740
It's a big white bird.

850
00:55:08.060 --> 00:55:09.160
Yeah, the white bird with the long neck.

851
00:55:09.580 --> 00:55:09.980
Swan.

852
00:55:10.740 --> 00:55:13.300
There's a head of a swan coming to the top of her head.

853
00:55:13.560 --> 00:55:14.740
Which is hidden. You can't see it.

854
00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:16.140
You can't see it?

855
00:55:16.140 --> 00:55:16.920
You can't see it.

856
00:55:17.080 --> 00:55:20.340
And the painting that you saw over there at the Illinois Bell,

857
00:55:21.300 --> 00:55:25.040
there's birds, lions, and all those things that you won't be able to see right away.

858
00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:26.180
You have to look for them.

859
00:55:26.600 --> 00:55:29.860
What I tried to do is that,

860
00:55:30.560 --> 00:55:36.300
the painting grows in you and it becomes interesting because you will discover things.

861
00:55:37.060 --> 00:55:39.680
You will see one day, think about something beautiful that you can't see.

862
00:55:40.820 --> 00:55:42.520
Oh, look at that.

863
00:55:42.780 --> 00:55:43.820
I never saw that.

864
00:55:44.120 --> 00:55:47.160
And it has a subconscious feeling to it.

865
00:55:47.300 --> 00:55:49.260
There's something beyond what you see.

866
00:55:49.600 --> 00:55:50.840
That's something to keep emerging.

867
00:55:50.920 --> 00:55:52.220
I sense that a lot in your work.

868
00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:57.700
I'm probably an art critic, but I sense a kind of, sort of that dream life.

869
00:55:57.700 --> 00:55:59.780
You know how in a dream, there's all these layers,

870
00:56:00.460 --> 00:56:02.420
and there's the obvious message, and all these hidden things?

871
00:56:02.520 --> 00:56:03.600
I sense that a lot in your work.

872
00:56:04.060 --> 00:56:04.900
That's what I'm trying to do.

873
00:56:05.520 --> 00:56:08.140
That somehow, I explain the artwork to you,

874
00:56:08.320 --> 00:56:10.640
you kind of help feeling that there's something else that I'm not saying.

875
00:56:10.860 --> 00:56:13.960
That it's something more that the language is not interpreting.

876
00:56:14.100 --> 00:56:17.340
And things don't fit together quite the way they would in this world.

877
00:56:18.240 --> 00:56:19.640
In a dream, things go together that way.

878
00:56:19.640 --> 00:56:25.480
Well, remember, the artwork has to become just as fascinating to me as it will become to you.

879
00:56:25.900 --> 00:56:26.800
Otherwise, why do it?

880
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:27.880
I like the artwork.

881
00:56:29.720 --> 00:56:31.560
Well, no, I start with me.

882
00:56:31.740 --> 00:56:33.340
Right, I mean, you start with yourself.

883
00:56:33.380 --> 00:56:37.000
And what happens is I can sit here for a little ticket piece, put it in front of me.

884
00:56:37.020 --> 00:56:42.180
I sit there for two hours, and see things that I was not aware that were there when I painted it in.

885
00:56:43.020 --> 00:56:46.860
Which means that a certain part of my subconscious is also expressing itself.

886
00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:48.400
So there's certain symbolism.

887
00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:52.300
And sometimes I sit there and say, ooh, this is scary.

888
00:56:52.300 --> 00:56:56.940
There's a few things there that I can identify with which I was not aware I was putting.

889
00:56:58.320 --> 00:56:59.640
Just can't think of the subconscious.

890
00:57:00.460 --> 00:57:02.260
You sort of make decisions as you're going along.

891
00:57:02.420 --> 00:57:04.380
You don't completely plan a piece out of place.

892
00:57:05.500 --> 00:57:06.380
Yes, I know.

893
00:57:06.640 --> 00:57:09.460
I'm getting more into allowing the subconscious.

894
00:57:09.600 --> 00:57:12.460
Before, I wanted to control every single part.

895
00:57:12.580 --> 00:57:14.180
This is the way I can train.

896
00:57:14.900 --> 00:57:16.860
It's almost like the way Frank is trained.

897
00:57:16.860 --> 00:57:23.160
You know, when you get to the situation where you cannot be with something being a little closer here.

898
00:57:23.460 --> 00:57:27.880
You have to know exactly what's going to happen, when it's going to happen, so you have control over it.

899
00:57:28.020 --> 00:57:29.640
And it happens the way you plan it.

900
00:57:30.100 --> 00:57:34.500
So you have an event, A, B, C, and D happen the way it's supposed to happen.

901
00:57:34.700 --> 00:57:37.840
And it's the end, the closure, the discussion is over, and it worked.

902
00:57:38.920 --> 00:57:44.840
But the whole thing about being ambiguous and surprising and something came out wrong or not having control.

903
00:57:44.840 --> 00:57:46.620
I'm sure you see this big snack in here.

904
00:57:47.060 --> 00:57:51.500
So I used to have that problem with my paintings too, because that's the way I got trained in medical illustration.

905
00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:52.880
You control everything.

906
00:57:53.500 --> 00:57:57.360
And it's only when it's supposed to be there, it should be there, you control.

907
00:57:58.620 --> 00:58:02.760
And if it didn't work, it started over from the beginning and it didn't work.

908
00:58:03.380 --> 00:58:05.880
So I used to approach my paintings that way in the beginning.

909
00:58:06.460 --> 00:58:09.600
Some of the smaller ones, it's like everything has to be concise.

910
00:58:10.660 --> 00:58:14.160
And it was real hard for me to just let go, because I was driving myself crazy.

911
00:58:14.160 --> 00:58:19.520
Do you think there's a correlation between, as you said, it's probably another building out of narration.

912
00:58:20.720 --> 00:58:23.640
But you wanted to control everything a little.

913
00:58:23.900 --> 00:58:25.620
Now you're doing works on a large scale.

914
00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:26.880
Is there a correlation?

915
00:58:26.980 --> 00:58:28.820
In the sense of letting loose?

916
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:33.900
The beautiful thing about large scale pieces is not so much that they're going to sell easy,

917
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:36.640
because it's harder to sell because people have small apartments.

918
00:58:37.540 --> 00:58:38.820
And they want smaller paintings.

919
00:58:38.820 --> 00:58:45.940
The other thing is that whenever you want to allow your full expression,

920
00:58:46.560 --> 00:58:50.240
to allow all the creative juices to come out,

921
00:58:51.760 --> 00:58:54.760
you need to really allow it to fool the world.

922
00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:57.840
A large painting somehow, when you're getting a large painting,

923
00:58:58.220 --> 00:59:01.940
nothing is this, it's that big canvas that's in front of you.

924
00:59:02.220 --> 00:59:04.940
And somehow you go into it, you walk into the canvas,

925
00:59:05.480 --> 00:59:08.020
because it fills your whole, so you can see.

926
00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:10.680
You go into the painting and you disappear on it.

927
00:59:11.060 --> 00:59:13.920
I remember the times that I feel this paint over here.

928
00:59:14.020 --> 00:59:15.220
I said, oh, what is this?

929
00:59:15.820 --> 00:59:16.940
And it's already 12 o'clock.

930
00:59:17.040 --> 00:59:18.580
I've been painting since 7 in the morning.

931
00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:21.680
And I've been painting about four hours in this position,

932
00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:25.220
without even noticing the paint was there until it was actually taken in the morning.

933
00:59:25.260 --> 00:59:28.040
And it felt like real, strong, sharp paint.

934
00:59:28.260 --> 00:59:28.620
Oh!

935
00:59:29.560 --> 00:59:31.540
Did I have to do the Jackson Pollock painting?

936
00:59:31.560 --> 00:59:33.220
I never liked Jackson Pollock that well.

937
00:59:33.220 --> 00:59:35.500
I went and stood in front of a painting one day,

938
00:59:35.900 --> 00:59:37.880
and I stood close enough that the whole world disappeared.

939
00:59:38.120 --> 00:59:40.880
I went into it, and his paintings are so...

940
00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:42.200
It's an interweb.

941
00:59:42.840 --> 00:59:44.320
Oh, it was incredible.

942
00:59:44.420 --> 00:59:47.680
I love Jackson Pollock now, but it was exactly that, it was because of scale.

943
00:59:47.960 --> 00:59:49.280
It was really remarkable.

944
00:59:49.300 --> 00:59:50.460
It fills your world.

945
00:59:51.520 --> 00:59:52.780
What was it like to go into the painting?

946
00:59:53.260 --> 00:59:54.800
I mean, the world disappeared.

947
00:59:55.260 --> 00:59:56.740
It's a really clear feeling.

948
00:59:56.980 --> 00:59:57.620
It's a high.

949
00:59:57.620 --> 00:59:59.300
And with a painting this large, you can hear it?

950
00:59:59.440 --> 01:00:02.020
It is a high. It's almost like you feel like you're floating.

951
01:00:04.060 --> 01:00:06.320
And actually, I read some of this about other artists.

952
01:00:06.520 --> 01:00:07.620
It gives you a high.

953
01:00:08.560 --> 01:00:10.000
And you don't notice time.

954
01:00:10.220 --> 01:00:11.080
You don't know what you're doing.

955
01:00:11.300 --> 01:00:12.520
You're going into the painting.

956
01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:15.080
It comes to roll, and everything just flows.

957
01:00:15.660 --> 01:00:16.740
It's like a dream.

958
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:19.400
Of course, when you're painting it, you can use your whole body.

959
01:00:19.520 --> 01:00:21.500
Yeah, and then everything's in motion.

960
01:00:23.020 --> 01:00:25.860
Do you think that mural painting, because it's so large,

961
01:00:25.860 --> 01:00:27.440
is a little like large scale painting?

962
01:00:27.780 --> 01:00:28.220
Yes.

963
01:00:29.020 --> 01:00:32.120
One thing that I'm struck with when we look at murals is the flesh.

964
01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:35.540
The only problem with murals is you got the city noises,

965
01:00:35.960 --> 01:00:37.260
the traffic, the cars,

966
01:00:38.300 --> 01:00:39.740
and the people interrupt you.

967
01:00:39.860 --> 01:00:43.480
They want to know, well, you know you'll paint you all by yourself into the painting.

968
01:00:44.560 --> 01:00:47.240
Unless a phone happens to ring, nobody else will interrupt me.

969
01:00:49.220 --> 01:00:51.860
But the scale, obviously I love the scale.

970
01:00:51.980 --> 01:00:52.640
I used to love murals.

971
01:00:53.340 --> 01:00:55.780
It's a huge thing just looking back at your work.

972
01:00:56.640 --> 01:00:59.060
You couldn't walk by there without noticing it.

973
01:00:59.300 --> 01:01:00.180
That's not effective.

974
01:01:00.600 --> 01:01:00.680
Yes.

975
01:01:01.980 --> 01:01:04.980
You know what it is to be able to communicate, people say, this is what you mean, dungeon.

976
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:07.680
It's just, yeah.

977
01:01:08.240 --> 01:01:10.060
People coming up to you and saying, we're here.

978
01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:11.320
People are working.

979
01:01:11.700 --> 01:01:12.420
People beeping.

980
01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:15.700
It's a good feeling.

981
01:01:16.200 --> 01:01:17.520
It's getting close to the people.

982
01:01:17.680 --> 01:01:19.820
For an artist to go out there and work with people,

983
01:01:20.280 --> 01:01:22.060
it's a different feeling than being in a studio.

984
01:01:22.340 --> 01:01:25.600
I'm always amazed because I don't know what kind of work I can be writing.

985
01:01:26.660 --> 01:01:30.520
I'm always amazed when I look at a painting and we get it.

986
01:01:30.860 --> 01:01:32.040
I'm shocked because he's painting.

987
01:01:32.240 --> 01:01:33.920
We looked at it and everything got in the whole thing.

988
01:01:34.160 --> 01:01:35.180
But he's not part of it.

989
01:01:35.200 --> 01:01:38.580
I'm always amazed that there's something in the painting when we actually got it.

990
01:01:39.780 --> 01:01:40.260
That's true.

991
01:01:40.300 --> 01:01:40.880
It's so funny.

992
01:01:41.700 --> 01:01:42.960
In front of me was a painter.

993
01:01:43.600 --> 01:01:44.420
I like to work a lot.

994
01:01:44.840 --> 01:01:47.260
I was at a gallery at the Mexican Fine Arts.

995
01:01:47.940 --> 01:01:49.280
I was standing in front of the painting.

996
01:01:50.320 --> 01:01:53.120
Somebody in the back said, do you understand this painting?

997
01:01:53.200 --> 01:01:53.840
I said, yes.

998
01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:54.760
I didn't even look.

999
01:01:54.900 --> 01:01:55.940
He said, what does it mean?

1000
01:01:56.880 --> 01:02:00.920
I was so in tune with the painting that it's almost like I was talking to myself.

1001
01:02:01.020 --> 01:02:05.880
I didn't realize there was actually a person back to me that I hadn't even invited to look to see who it was.

1002
01:02:06.340 --> 01:02:09.400
I started telling this woman's history because it was all there.

1003
01:02:09.780 --> 01:02:10.820
I said, this and that.

1004
01:02:11.300 --> 01:02:12.620
I just went into it.

1005
01:02:12.740 --> 01:02:14.460
It was somebody from her job.

1006
01:02:16.380 --> 01:02:18.760
I went to her and said, I like your work better than that.

1007
01:02:18.980 --> 01:02:20.300
I don't understand symbolism.

1008
01:02:20.700 --> 01:02:22.460
What you do with this, this, this and that.

1009
01:02:22.460 --> 01:02:23.480
She just looked at me.

1010
01:02:23.480 --> 01:02:24.500
How did you know that?

1011
01:02:25.720 --> 01:02:28.700
This guy over there told me.

1012
01:02:29.080 --> 01:02:31.380
It wouldn't happen if his name would be Oscar Martinez.

1013
01:02:35.580 --> 01:02:37.620
I didn't know who it was in the back of me.

1014
01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:38.780
I just got into the painting.

1015
01:02:38.960 --> 01:02:40.440
Then they left and I just continued looking.

1016
01:02:41.340 --> 01:02:43.780
You travel into it and everything is there.

1017
01:02:44.780 --> 01:02:46.720
You're going into somebody's personal life.

1018
01:02:47.560 --> 01:02:49.260
How did your symbols come to you?

1019
01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:51.260
How did you decide you were a lion?

1020
01:02:51.260 --> 01:02:53.740
Did you just use your painting and you think, aha, lion?

1021
01:02:55.240 --> 01:02:57.180
A white lion is almost like a ghost.

1022
01:02:57.780 --> 01:03:00.900
I mean, just as your pops in your mind as you're painting?

1023
01:03:02.360 --> 01:03:02.600
No.

1024
01:03:02.600 --> 01:03:06.100
Your painting seems very symbolic to me in the sense that it's like a code.

1025
01:03:07.400 --> 01:03:09.480
You've got to decode symbols to get a message.

1026
01:03:11.080 --> 01:03:12.880
I know all messages are all that clear.

1027
01:03:13.420 --> 01:03:15.440
There's many messages intermingled with a number of things.

1028
01:03:15.720 --> 01:03:16.920
Just one, you can say this means.

1029
01:03:17.480 --> 01:03:20.840
If you read Young in terms of dreams and symbols,

1030
01:03:21.420 --> 01:03:23.420
he has a great book called My Man and His Symbols.

1031
01:03:24.640 --> 01:03:25.960
He talks a lot about that.

1032
01:03:26.220 --> 01:03:27.100
Just how you do it.

1033
01:03:27.300 --> 01:03:30.500
How do you seize on your images?

1034
01:03:32.980 --> 01:03:36.420
Some of them, like the prehistoric frog.

1035
01:03:37.560 --> 01:03:39.280
That's not a typical image.

1036
01:03:39.540 --> 01:03:43.540
That's just put down already and look in bulk and make a highway.

1037
01:03:46.840 --> 01:03:48.240
You decided your painting.

1038
01:03:48.240 --> 01:03:49.580
You planned it out in advance.

1039
01:03:51.540 --> 01:03:52.900
It's a number of things.

1040
01:03:53.100 --> 01:03:54.560
It's almost like dancing.

1041
01:03:55.560 --> 01:03:58.020
You may know a few steps, but you don't know what the other person knows.

1042
01:03:58.760 --> 01:04:00.980
You may improvise because the tune may change.

1043
01:04:01.060 --> 01:04:02.480
You never heard a song before.

1044
01:04:03.140 --> 01:04:05.880
The person in their life doesn't know how to dance or knows how to dance.

1045
01:04:06.280 --> 01:04:09.200
You may decide in this moment to do a turn which you were not planning for it.

1046
01:04:09.540 --> 01:04:11.160
But you have no real idea what you're going to do.

1047
01:04:11.260 --> 01:04:11.760
It's pretty simple.

1048
01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:16.040
You approach it with a certain idea, a certain symbol in your mind.

1049
01:04:16.920 --> 01:04:21.180
Then as you develop it, all the symbols begin to merge because they interrelate.

1050
01:04:21.640 --> 01:04:23.360
Then it comes together.

1051
01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:26.180
That's the best way I can explain it.

1052
01:04:26.580 --> 01:04:29.560
So it's sort of as you're painting things, things occur to you.

1053
01:04:30.380 --> 01:04:32.220
Part of it, you have to plan things in your mind.

1054
01:04:33.640 --> 01:04:35.720
You have to have a certain amount of perception and vision.

1055
01:04:37.380 --> 01:04:39.040
But what you're doing, right?

1056
01:04:39.200 --> 01:04:43.060
You have to go beyond this little world.

1057
01:04:43.900 --> 01:04:47.320
You're almost like writing.

1058
01:04:47.420 --> 01:04:51.520
You're confronted with this big, huge, wide piece of paper.

1059
01:04:52.440 --> 01:04:54.020
And it's really silly.

1060
01:04:54.260 --> 01:04:55.000
Think about it.

1061
01:04:55.160 --> 01:05:01.020
A grown man sits there, takes this little pencil-like thing with a brush.

1062
01:05:02.620 --> 01:05:04.660
And he takes all this pigment and puts it together.

1063
01:05:05.160 --> 01:05:09.500
And he sits there and takes out some pigment and puts it on this piece of paper.

1064
01:05:09.880 --> 01:05:11.700
And he does that for hours.

1065
01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:12.820
And he's like, I'm going to do this for hours.

1066
01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:16.480
You think of it socially. That's kind of weird.

1067
01:05:16.940 --> 01:05:17.540
To be doing that.

1068
01:05:19.080 --> 01:05:21.380
Well, it had hit me a few times. I'm sitting there all by myself.

1069
01:05:21.540 --> 01:05:23.220
It's 12 o'clock. I'm real tired.

1070
01:05:23.520 --> 01:05:26.760
And I look around and say, oh, this is you. What am I doing here?

1071
01:05:27.140 --> 01:05:31.300
You're sitting there, a grown man putting pigment on a canvas.

1072
01:05:31.600 --> 01:05:33.160
Someone out here takes a tick.

1073
01:05:34.520 --> 01:05:36.640
But this is another part of it.

1074
01:05:36.640 --> 01:05:39.520
That is, you're doing something very unique.

1075
01:05:40.300 --> 01:05:43.260
You're opening a window into your own mind.

1076
01:05:45.480 --> 01:05:46.640
And you are

1077
01:05:46.640 --> 01:05:48.200
presenting to somebody

1078
01:05:48.200 --> 01:05:52.360
a perception of reality or a perception into my dreams.

1079
01:05:53.640 --> 01:05:56.360
That I will not be able to present any other way.

1080
01:05:56.980 --> 01:05:58.000
Because words will not allow.

1081
01:05:58.500 --> 01:06:01.840
So when you sit there and look at that painting with the lion and the woman standing there.

1082
01:06:02.040 --> 01:06:03.400
And they're both standing on water.

1083
01:06:03.520 --> 01:06:07.120
And you got two sons and this weird tree, kind of mystical.

1084
01:06:07.120 --> 01:06:10.340
And she's looking straight at you with a super yellow dress.

1085
01:06:10.780 --> 01:06:14.320
And the lion's one is kind of dark and dusty in the background.

1086
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:15.780
It's almost like a dream.

1087
01:06:15.820 --> 01:06:16.820
It's almost like a fantasy.

1088
01:06:19.580 --> 01:06:21.000
Let me put it in the best way I can put it.

1089
01:06:21.040 --> 01:06:24.500
It is like a dream. That's the sense I get. I'm looking at your dream.

1090
01:06:24.760 --> 01:06:28.360
When I look at that painting, I think this is a dream you have. Or this is a business.

1091
01:06:28.460 --> 01:06:31.780
It's perception. It's perception. I mean, perception is the most beautiful thing.

1092
01:06:33.380 --> 01:06:34.860
I'm sure you've gone through it.

1093
01:06:34.860 --> 01:06:39.520
You go to one of the workshops and you go to one person and they say this is the best workshop I've been in.

1094
01:06:40.040 --> 01:06:41.620
I learned this and I had this.

1095
01:06:41.900 --> 01:06:43.540
And you go to somebody else and they say this is bullshit.

1096
01:06:44.240 --> 01:06:47.320
Nothing. I mean, why did I get out of this stuff? It was a waste of my time.

1097
01:06:47.740 --> 01:06:49.820
And you go, whatever. They will go through the same thing.

1098
01:06:50.060 --> 01:06:53.680
It's perception. Depending on your experience, what you expect and what's there.

1099
01:06:55.560 --> 01:06:56.760
So I like this.

1100
01:06:57.100 --> 01:07:00.760
I don't know if you've seen any of the things about vision that keep you channeled at some times.

1101
01:07:01.940 --> 01:07:03.620
The one that I like that is really

1102
01:07:03.620 --> 01:07:06.040
symbolic of perception is that

1103
01:07:06.040 --> 01:07:08.600
I got it mostly from me or another.

1104
01:07:10.360 --> 01:07:12.840
If you have a truck

1105
01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:14.680
that is yellow,

1106
01:07:15.900 --> 01:07:18.000
obviously the light is a wave.

1107
01:07:18.660 --> 01:07:21.460
Even though physics is fun. But let's keep it simple. Light is a wave.

1108
01:07:22.020 --> 01:07:24.780
So like sound, it travels. And sound

1109
01:07:24.780 --> 01:07:28.640
when you hear a train coming, it goes back down.

1110
01:07:33.060 --> 01:07:33.060


1111
01:07:33.900 --> 01:07:36.840
So when you see a truck at a distance, it should look lighter.

1112
01:07:37.100 --> 01:07:38.880
Even artists discovered that a long time ago.

1113
01:07:39.280 --> 01:07:42.920
The farther away, the more washed it out. The closer, the more brighter.

1114
01:07:43.400 --> 01:07:45.940
But if you see a truck in a few blocks down, it looks yellow.

1115
01:07:46.420 --> 01:07:48.500
As it gets closer to you, it looks the same yellow.

1116
01:07:48.640 --> 01:07:51.500
And when it is the brain,

1117
01:07:51.560 --> 01:07:54.540
it makes up its mind that that's yellow. So it gives you that message

1118
01:07:54.540 --> 01:07:55.960
that it's completely yellow and doesn't change.

1119
01:07:56.740 --> 01:08:00.700
So your brain also pulls you and lies to you in terms of what's there.

1120
01:08:02.060 --> 01:08:04.180
That doesn't happen just in physical things.

1121
01:08:04.180 --> 01:08:06.220
It also happens in your own personal perceptions.

1122
01:08:06.760 --> 01:08:09.940
I was telling you before, you may feel happy one day and everything is great.

1123
01:08:10.380 --> 01:08:13.440
The next day, some kind of problem and everything is messed up.

1124
01:08:13.820 --> 01:08:14.620
The day hasn't changed.

1125
01:08:15.160 --> 01:08:18.480
The sound came down and so forth. You have changed in your perception of reality.

1126
01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:22.200
So how do you take that and present it at different levels?

1127
01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:24.020
Present it in terms of the public?

1128
01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:28.760
Your own crazy self and all your thinking about things around you

1129
01:08:28.760 --> 01:08:33.020
and how you present it in your studies

1130
01:08:33.020 --> 01:08:35.120
as a campus isolated from anybody else.

1131
01:08:35.380 --> 01:08:38.020
You may do a piece and nobody sees you for a few months.

1132
01:08:39.380 --> 01:08:40.640
How does that relate to mirrors?

1133
01:08:41.040 --> 01:08:41.700
Or not?

1134
01:08:47.620 --> 01:08:49.280
Well, I think

1135
01:08:49.280 --> 01:08:51.660
one of the things that interests me

1136
01:08:52.560 --> 01:08:56.840
is this whole perception of how the person,

1137
01:08:56.840 --> 01:08:58.740
not the artist, takes the message

1138
01:08:58.740 --> 01:09:03.500
and how that somehow gets incorporated into that person's life.

1139
01:09:03.700 --> 01:09:06.460
You have to remember, mirrors have another impact.

1140
01:09:06.620 --> 01:09:10.240
Mirrors go beyond also the mere fact of the visual impact.

1141
01:09:10.400 --> 01:09:12.360
It has a sociological impact.

1142
01:09:12.540 --> 01:09:14.940
An effective part of change is how you feel.

1143
01:09:15.020 --> 01:09:17.540
If you're involved in the organization, putting it together,

1144
01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:21.580
there's a certain sense of pride, a certain sense of ownership.

1145
01:09:21.820 --> 01:09:23.840
It's part of your life. You put your time into it.

1146
01:09:24.100 --> 01:09:27.640
I mean, the artist did it, but you were a very important integral part of it.

1147
01:09:28.860 --> 01:09:32.940
So they become protective. It's not longer the artist's mural.

1148
01:09:33.080 --> 01:09:35.380
No, you just came to do it. It's our mural.

1149
01:09:36.060 --> 01:09:36.880
That's how we think.

1150
01:09:38.060 --> 01:09:41.240
In any cases, you know of a neighborhood mural,

1151
01:09:41.540 --> 01:09:45.060
like some part of it being taken over as a logo for something

1152
01:09:45.060 --> 01:09:46.620
or kind of a neighborhood symbol?

1153
01:09:47.540 --> 01:09:49.640
So they actually...

1154
01:09:51.200 --> 01:09:52.660
La Mirada Mires of Trumpet.

1155
01:09:53.940 --> 01:09:54.700
That has something to do with that.

1156
01:09:54.700 --> 01:09:56.920
It's one of his paintings that actually served as a term.

1157
01:09:58.080 --> 01:09:59.120
Symbolic for a logo.

1158
01:09:59.640 --> 01:10:02.480
We did a champagne with the mural that I did there.

1159
01:10:03.280 --> 01:10:07.040
XA was a real robust woman, almost like

1160
01:10:07.040 --> 01:10:10.980
the Ziqueros woman with the big red, green arm.

1161
01:10:11.440 --> 01:10:13.080
And the university thought that was a good idea

1162
01:10:13.080 --> 01:10:14.820
to have a woman...

1163
01:10:14.820 --> 01:10:15.600
Too central?

1164
01:10:18.900 --> 01:10:22.520
Too risky. Down there in Champaign.

1165
01:10:22.520 --> 01:10:25.600
I think it's a good idea.

1166
01:10:29.680 --> 01:10:30.720
But murals...

1167
01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:32.540
I feel murals are

1168
01:10:32.540 --> 01:10:34.820
slowly becoming part of...

1169
01:10:35.740 --> 01:10:37.220
They're slowly losing ground.

1170
01:10:37.720 --> 01:10:40.040
They're getting less funded. They're getting less attention.

1171
01:10:40.760 --> 01:10:43.820
Usually the ones that get attention are because young people are getting involved in painting.

1172
01:10:44.320 --> 01:10:46.920
Which means the quality is not as good as the kids.

1173
01:10:47.300 --> 01:10:49.940
I think also the pressure that you spoke on at the beginning

1174
01:10:49.940 --> 01:10:54.100
of the talk was how artists often tend to switch directions.

1175
01:10:54.280 --> 01:10:55.400
We're all getting older.

1176
01:10:55.760 --> 01:10:58.300
We're all deciding, hey, we've done great, we did my murals.

1177
01:10:58.440 --> 01:11:01.100
Now what I need to do for myself, I already gave back to the community.

1178
01:11:01.380 --> 01:11:03.960
But also people want to be portrayed in a style and interest.

1179
01:11:05.000 --> 01:11:06.940
But I think it's going down tremendously.

1180
01:11:08.280 --> 01:11:09.300
Could be the times.

1181
01:11:10.680 --> 01:11:13.640
Well also the perception. Mural now because

1182
01:11:13.640 --> 01:11:15.860
most of them have been done in poor neighborhoods,

1183
01:11:15.860 --> 01:11:16.780
most of them are in poor neighborhoods.

1184
01:11:16.780 --> 01:11:16.780


1185
01:11:17.580 --> 01:11:21.460
Already have developed a certain perception

1186
01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:23.380
by the majority of people.

1187
01:11:24.060 --> 01:11:26.620
You have a mural next to your building, that's what you're supposed to report.

1188
01:11:27.900 --> 01:11:30.560
So you buy a building, it has a mural, you want it out of there.

1189
01:11:30.720 --> 01:11:33.380
It's the value of architecture. Which is really sad.

1190
01:11:34.160 --> 01:11:35.420
But I think that's it.

1191
01:11:37.020 --> 01:11:39.560
Now there's other murals like the one over there

1192
01:11:40.780 --> 01:11:43.360
by Broadway and University.

1193
01:11:45.080 --> 01:11:46.360
You know, which is very abstract,

1194
01:11:46.620 --> 01:11:48.640
very beautiful, cloudy type.

1195
01:11:48.980 --> 01:11:49.220
Very Russian.

1196
01:11:52.060 --> 01:11:53.260
Doesn't say much.

1197
01:11:55.960 --> 01:11:57.240
Next to the A's.

1198
01:11:59.800 --> 01:12:00.860
While I bring it in.

1199
01:12:02.780 --> 01:12:05.240
Or the one near school.

1200
01:12:06.020 --> 01:12:06.700
Yeah, it's near circle.

1201
01:12:06.700 --> 01:12:09.780
And the problem is if you do a mural that's on campus

1202
01:12:09.780 --> 01:12:12.540
and you place it up there, it's going to get damaged with wind drills.

1203
01:12:13.320 --> 01:12:15.060
When you pay the money you gotta have it inside.

1204
01:12:15.780 --> 01:12:17.920
So I don't think murals are...

1205
01:12:17.920 --> 01:12:21.200
I mean it's kind of neat that you're doing this because they're really there.

1206
01:12:21.780 --> 01:12:23.020
The best they are done.

1207
01:12:25.140 --> 01:12:27.680
Unless you get a new...

1208
01:12:27.680 --> 01:12:31.360
And it's not even happening because a new generation is not as interested in us involved.

1209
01:12:31.960 --> 01:12:34.560
And it's almost like the me generation is going to bury for me.

1210
01:12:35.080 --> 01:12:35.820
So they're graffiti.

1211
01:12:39.220 --> 01:12:41.100
But it hasn't picked up as much.

1212
01:12:42.740 --> 01:12:43.940
Do you want to see the video?

1213
01:12:44.680 --> 01:12:47.440
It's containing that the master's been doing for many months now.

1214
01:12:48.660 --> 01:12:49.840
Susan hasn't seen that one.

1215
01:12:49.960 --> 01:12:51.400
Can you go for me?

1216
01:12:53.440 --> 01:12:55.520
It's called Christopher.

1217
01:12:58.200 --> 01:12:59.040
Christopher how?

1218
01:13:00.240 --> 01:13:01.440
Christopher Church.

1219
01:13:03.000 --> 01:13:03.960
Christopher Church.

1220
01:13:06.380 --> 01:13:08.140
The mural that he made in Sheridan.

1221
01:13:08.840 --> 01:13:10.140
Oh, that's the name of the church?

1222
01:13:10.480 --> 01:13:13.100
Yeah, that's the one on...

1223
01:13:13.100 --> 01:13:14.840
Christopher, the one on Sheridan.

1224
01:13:15.960 --> 01:13:16.200
Yeah.

1225
01:13:19.920 --> 01:13:21.100
Let me show you the video.