WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.700 --> 00:00:04.100 Okay. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:05.980 We'll just leave that on, you don't have to do that. 3 00:00:06.220 --> 00:00:09.740 So they start rolling, you'll see both these white things are lit. 4 00:00:10.280 --> 00:00:12.020 And you want to make... 5 00:00:12.020 --> 00:00:12.020 6 00:00:12.840 --> 00:00:12.840 7 00:00:13.120 --> 00:00:14.960 Ask you to start rolling audio tape. 8 00:00:15.780 --> 00:00:16.080 Okay. 9 00:00:16.220 --> 00:00:16.880 Here we go again. 10 00:00:17.020 --> 00:00:18.680 You're going to get pretty used to this, aren't you? 11 00:00:20.680 --> 00:00:20.680 12 00:00:20.680 --> 00:00:21.840 Hold it up a little higher, so... 13 00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:22.340 Hold it up a little higher? 14 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:23.700 Okay, go. 15 00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:24.700 Do I need to read it? 16 00:00:24.940 --> 00:00:25.280 Yes. 17 00:00:25.980 --> 00:00:28.800 Jose, interview number two, scene one, take one. 18 00:00:29.360 --> 00:00:29.920 Roll one. 19 00:00:29.980 --> 00:00:29.980 20 00:00:29.980 --> 00:00:29.980 21 00:00:30.700 --> 00:00:31.360 Roll one. 22 00:00:31.540 --> 00:00:32.660 Okay, have a seat. 23 00:00:34.160 --> 00:00:35.220 You're on when you're ready. 24 00:00:35.480 --> 00:00:37.100 Okay, could you talk about that? 25 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:39.880 Oh, about art being political, right? 26 00:00:40.740 --> 00:00:46.100 Okay, the reason I say that art is political is because everything that is painted has 27 00:00:46.100 --> 00:00:52.080 got to do with the environment, politics, or what's happening in the community. 28 00:00:53.980 --> 00:01:00.000 So, like in the case of the Cicepuedes mural, it was at the time when the farm workers were 29 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:05.740 going through the strikes, they were having trouble with pesticides. 30 00:01:07.340 --> 00:01:15.040 The children were being treated, you know, for eating stuff that was contaminated with 31 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:15.540 chemicals. 32 00:01:17.080 --> 00:01:21.760 So, at that time, you know, the organization was boycotting lettuce. 33 00:01:22.960 --> 00:01:27.840 They probably still are now, you know, but at that time, especially, they were boycotting 34 00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:29.060 lettuce and grapes. 35 00:01:30.540 --> 00:01:35.460 And that was the time when the government, despite the boycott, they were buying grapes, 36 00:01:35.500 --> 00:01:36.120 you know. 37 00:01:36.520 --> 00:01:40.280 In other words, trying to break the thing about the boycott. 38 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:47.220 So, when we were going to do the mural there, it was done in a couple of weeks, you know. 39 00:01:49.360 --> 00:01:53.120 It happened that some of the farm workers were in town for a meeting. 40 00:01:53.900 --> 00:01:57.280 So, they said, if you're going to paint something, why don't you paint something to support our 41 00:01:58.100 --> 00:02:02.080 cause, because we're going to be in the neighborhood, you know, pressing out leaflets, and it will 42 00:02:02.080 --> 00:02:07.080 help as part of a campaign or, you know, for propaganda purposes. 43 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:11.080 So, that was the case of that mural. 44 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:16.360 It came about because the time the things were happening and also the farm workers were 45 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:25.280 in the area organizing people to boycott the products, you know, from the grapevines from California. 46 00:02:38.440 --> 00:02:42.500 Jose, scene one, take two, roll one. 47 00:02:44.640 --> 00:02:45.760 All art is political. 48 00:02:45.760 --> 00:02:51.340 Go ahead and actually say it to Susan when Susan tells you, okay. 49 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:59.780 All art is political, beginning from even the Renaissance, because when De Vinci was 50 00:02:59.780 --> 00:03:05.900 doing the 16th Chapel, he was painting art to support the pope. 51 00:03:08.440 --> 00:03:13.200 When the French painter, Chardon, whatever his name was, was doing art, even though it 52 00:03:13.200 --> 00:03:19.080 seemed like he wasn't political, you know, he would paint bread, food, it was in the 53 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:23.140 middle of the French Revolution that he did that, you know, and there was people who were 54 00:03:23.140 --> 00:03:25.720 fighting, you know, for crumbs, you know. 55 00:03:25.720 --> 00:03:31.560 And also, when he painted bread and crumbs and food, it was something that the people 56 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:37.200 didn't have, you know, so even still life would be considered political. 57 00:03:38.540 --> 00:03:45.000 And even now, you know, even if they paint the ocean, it's political, because what happened 58 00:03:45.720 --> 00:03:51.160 at this thing in Alaska, you know, the Exxon and oil companies are involved in it. 59 00:03:51.160 --> 00:03:57.960 And to say that painting the ocean is not political is not understanding what art really 60 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:03.320 is, you know, because there is no such thing as art for art's sake in my book. 61 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:07.800 Good, very good. Okay. 62 00:04:09.420 --> 00:04:11.500 A little higher. 63 00:04:16.280 --> 00:04:17.220 Okay, Sue. 64 00:04:17.220 --> 00:04:20.220 Okay, scene two, take two, roll one. 65 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:25.360 Okay, any time. 66 00:04:26.340 --> 00:04:34.540 The mural at the Chicago Park District workers' room, as we call it, you know, or labor room, 67 00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:42.460 they call it, or the tool room, where we paint the mural, deals with the people working in 68 00:04:42.460 --> 00:04:42.880 the park. 69 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:51.000 So it includes women, men, black and white. 70 00:04:52.540 --> 00:04:57.680 And of course, the reason it's important, because a lot of the workers participated 71 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:01.340 in doing it, well, not a lot of them, but at least six or seven, you know, and the rest 72 00:05:01.340 --> 00:05:08.520 participated in either criticizing it or supporting it, you know. 73 00:05:08.640 --> 00:05:10.300 Some liked it, some didn't, you know. 74 00:05:10.300 --> 00:05:16.440 Some said that there should be more women, and some said that in the first place, they 75 00:05:16.440 --> 00:05:18.020 didn't have enough women working there. 76 00:05:18.420 --> 00:05:24.260 In reality, they don't, you know, in landscaping, you know. 77 00:05:26.080 --> 00:05:34.280 And we took, we did it during the wintertime, you know, during dinner time, in the afternoons, 78 00:05:35.080 --> 00:05:38.600 or whenever it was snowing hard, you know, we didn't have nothing else to do. 79 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:43.600 Well, we had a lot to do, you know, but we took time to do it anyway. 80 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:57.740 Okay, scene three, take one, roll one. 81 00:06:03.580 --> 00:06:11.420 The murals in this community call for different themes, for the simple reason that, like in 82 00:06:11.420 --> 00:06:13.980 Chicago, there's different ethnic groups. 83 00:06:14.980 --> 00:06:19.740 If you're the one in the black community, you will call for something different, let's 84 00:06:19.740 --> 00:06:22.160 say in a Polish community, you know. 85 00:06:22.820 --> 00:06:29.600 You know, there are people who are working or members of the working class, that doesn't 86 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:33.300 mean that their backgrounds are the same, you know. 87 00:06:34.660 --> 00:06:40.760 So it calls for different themes, and perhaps different colors. 88 00:06:41.400 --> 00:06:47.880 For instance, there was one done at McDonald's on Valmont and Poleski, which dealt with the 89 00:06:47.880 --> 00:06:53.340 Polish culture, and it has a lot of costumes that the Polish people wear. 90 00:06:54.780 --> 00:06:56.780 It talks about Polish struggles. 91 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:04.320 In the Mexican neighborhood, there's different things, such as the struggle with the farm 92 00:07:04.320 --> 00:07:07.520 workers, the demonstrations against immigration. 93 00:07:09.640 --> 00:07:17.920 So, of course, it calls for a different theme, like the mural, it was dealing with the farm 94 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:19.460 workers and the community. 95 00:07:21.140 --> 00:07:30.960 And in case of the one on 28th and Reachway, which is called We Will Stop the Storm, it 96 00:07:30.960 --> 00:07:36.320 deals with the community, but in the community itself, there lives different ethnic backgrounds. 97 00:07:36.320 --> 00:07:43.080 There's black, there's a few Polish, and then there's a few Arabs, you know, which you don't 98 00:07:43.080 --> 00:07:45.940 have in some areas, but there you have them. 99 00:07:47.340 --> 00:07:51.900 So, in talking with the people there, you know, the Arabs have a lot to say, you know, 100 00:07:51.980 --> 00:07:54.940 especially what was going on in the Middle East. 101 00:07:56.200 --> 00:07:59.820 And the Mexicans have a lot to say with what's going on with the immigration. 102 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:04.780 And then, of course, the Polish have a lot to say because they claim that at one time 103 00:08:04.780 --> 00:08:08.700 it was an old white neighborhood, and that now it changed, you know. 104 00:08:08.700 --> 00:08:14.620 So, of course, the theme there would completely be something to work with in that community. 105 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:22.600 So, in doing that, we tell them, you know, We Will Stop the Storm. 106 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:28.220 And what storm we're talking about is the storm that they mentioned, you know, like 107 00:08:28.220 --> 00:08:35.520 the storm in the Middle East where they're being brutalized by the Zionists, the storm 108 00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:41.400 here in Chicago where they're being brutalized by the immigration, or we have some quotes 109 00:08:41.400 --> 00:08:48.420 there by people like Bapa Bacon who had to leave the country because his life was in 110 00:08:48.420 --> 00:08:51.680 danger, and his life was in danger because he's a revolutionary. 111 00:08:53.380 --> 00:08:55.600 So, of course, the theme completely has got to change. 112 00:08:56.040 --> 00:08:58.680 It can't be the same in all the neighborhoods. 113 00:09:00.580 --> 00:09:08.680 So, it shows dove that looks like a thunderbird and also might look like an eagle. 114 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:12.220 But in the background, there's a storm that the people have talked about. 115 00:09:13.020 --> 00:09:17.820 And instead of going about doing a lot of figures, you know, doing a lot of pyramids 116 00:09:17.820 --> 00:09:23.800 or doing a lot of either Egyptian or Mexican pyramids, we use symbols, you know. 117 00:09:24.380 --> 00:09:30.080 So, what we use was the storm as the problem that they are having, which would include 118 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:31.640 all the people, you know. 119 00:09:31.940 --> 00:09:37.080 We didn't have to put pictures of the immigration, pictures of the Zionists being up on the air 120 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:42.000 of people or the immigration, brutalizing the newly arrived. 121 00:09:42.560 --> 00:09:47.200 So, we use the storm as a symbol for all those things that are happening. 122 00:09:50.520 --> 00:09:55.760 And also, we showed a picture of a boy and a girl, one on each side. 123 00:09:56.920 --> 00:10:03.180 One of them being that the girl is stepping on a swastika, you know, which still symbolizes racism. 124 00:10:04.040 --> 00:10:08.880 And in some of the neighborhoods that we go to now, there are swastikas that are pretty 125 00:10:08.880 --> 00:10:15.780 well left alone, meaning that maybe there's a lot of people who are sympathetic to the way 126 00:10:15.780 --> 00:10:19.620 some people think, you know, especially like the right wing, because they don't want blacks 127 00:10:19.620 --> 00:10:20.220 moving in. 128 00:10:21.140 --> 00:10:25.200 So, the theme was we will stop the storm. 129 00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:30.780 And the storm was the problem that these people are having, you know, and the problems that 130 00:10:32.160 --> 00:10:36.860 minorities and other people who don't adhere to the system have, you know. 131 00:10:45.140 --> 00:10:47.500 Okay, now I am. 132 00:10:47.500 --> 00:10:48.000 Go ahead. 133 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:50.720 But when you put it in, it should already be open. 134 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:51.400 Yeah, okay. 135 00:10:51.800 --> 00:10:52.580 Now let me roll. 136 00:10:54.300 --> 00:10:54.700 Okay. 137 00:10:55.100 --> 00:10:57.720 Okay, scene four, take one, roll two. 138 00:11:01.280 --> 00:11:02.320 Okay, whenever you're ready. 139 00:11:03.460 --> 00:11:06.540 Okay, we're working at this factory. 140 00:11:07.800 --> 00:11:12.440 National video, doing TV tubes, you know, like at that time, that was about the only 141 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:13.500 factory doing TV tubes. 142 00:11:14.900 --> 00:11:17.380 But we wanted to get another union in there. 143 00:11:17.860 --> 00:11:22.840 So in order to get another union there, we had to do organizing, you know, get other 144 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:23.180 people. 145 00:11:23.920 --> 00:11:26.380 So we had this group called PGR. 146 00:11:27.140 --> 00:11:32.480 We took it from the song of who was singing it, called People Get Ready. 147 00:11:33.280 --> 00:11:36.680 Okay, so we called it PGR, and the paper was called People Get Ready. 148 00:11:37.900 --> 00:11:46.260 So basically it was mostly in writing, like informative letter, you know, no illustrations. 149 00:11:47.820 --> 00:11:53.880 So I started doing the illustrations for the People Get Ready pamphlet. 150 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:55.560 It was actually a pamphlet. 151 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:59.480 And we would discuss cartoons and this and that. 152 00:12:00.620 --> 00:12:02.220 And different things happening. 153 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:07.820 We would mostly discuss what was going on in the factory and how the organizing was 154 00:12:07.820 --> 00:12:08.540 going along. 155 00:12:10.280 --> 00:12:16.600 So it was during that time that I met this other Chicago artist who was already doing 156 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:17.940 a lot of artwork, you know. 157 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:23.020 And he was, he's a very famous artist, I would say, whose name is John Weber. 158 00:12:25.660 --> 00:12:28.980 And from then on, we went to Indiana. 159 00:12:29.300 --> 00:12:34.940 I think it was Gary, Indiana, where they had a meeting dealing with the miners, you know. 160 00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:39.120 They had gone on strike in one of the mines, I forgot where. 161 00:12:40.140 --> 00:12:43.260 And they were discussing the situation there. 162 00:12:43.660 --> 00:12:46.420 And we were discussing the situation in the city. 163 00:12:48.340 --> 00:12:56.620 So eventually, by discussing with the miners, and which were mostly from that particular 164 00:12:56.620 --> 00:13:02.780 area in the south, I forgot which part of the south it was, John and me were discussing 165 00:13:02.780 --> 00:13:04.420 this thing with the people there. 166 00:13:04.860 --> 00:13:11.360 It happened that John had got some space at the UE Hall to do a mural. 167 00:13:11.800 --> 00:13:14.960 So he asked me if I would be interested in learning the technique. 168 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.740 So I agreed to work with him. 169 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:22.960 So we went in there, and that's when we started doing the mural. 170 00:13:23.080 --> 00:13:28.960 It took us close to a year to do it because we would work and then do other stuff on the 171 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:29.280 outside. 172 00:13:29.420 --> 00:13:30.720 He had other stuff to do. 173 00:13:31.520 --> 00:13:37.960 And plus, I was working, so I had to do it whenever I had time, you know, Saturdays, 174 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:39.800 Sundays, or in the afternoons. 175 00:13:39.800 --> 00:13:44.780 As it turned out, it turned out to be pretty good because we could make changes in the 176 00:13:44.780 --> 00:13:45.000 mural. 177 00:13:46.180 --> 00:13:52.380 And we were liberated to express ourselves more politically because the people who ran 178 00:13:52.380 --> 00:14:00.260 the United Electrical Workers had been involved in class struggles many years ago in the 30s 179 00:14:00.260 --> 00:14:01.740 during the McCarthy era. 180 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:04.480 A lot of them had gotten in trouble, you know. 181 00:14:05.300 --> 00:14:06.980 And a lot of them were still around. 182 00:14:07.940 --> 00:14:11.820 And of course, you know, we discussed things with them. 183 00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:14.180 And they agreed on certain things. 184 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:20.180 They said, let's go to the factory and do sketches of the workers as they're working, 185 00:14:21.520 --> 00:14:22.320 which John did. 186 00:14:23.140 --> 00:14:25.700 I couldn't go that day, but John did some sketches. 187 00:14:25.760 --> 00:14:30.060 But then he brought them back, and then we put some sketches on the wall. 188 00:14:30.760 --> 00:14:32.700 I had some sketches that I had done. 189 00:14:32.700 --> 00:14:38.540 Sort of most of the sketches about the Klan, the reactionary forces. 190 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:45.800 And at that time, it included also the things that happened in Chile because the mural was 191 00:14:45.800 --> 00:14:48.460 painted in 73, around 73. 192 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:53.820 So we included different things dealing with the situation in Chile. 193 00:14:54.660 --> 00:14:59.280 But also the stronger points were made about the workers, you know. 194 00:15:03.500 --> 00:15:07.580 And artists who paint are not necessarily, you know, from the elite. 195 00:15:07.800 --> 00:15:10.300 They come also from the working class. 196 00:15:10.800 --> 00:15:15.800 But not just the working class, the advanced working class, because we can't be all together 197 00:15:15.800 --> 00:15:18.040 because there are workers who are backward, you know. 198 00:15:18.400 --> 00:15:20.480 Or they might have different kinds of politics. 199 00:15:21.540 --> 00:15:26.740 So I would say there's a group of workers that even though they work, they were advanced 200 00:15:26.740 --> 00:15:27.880 They know about politics. 201 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:29.720 They know about art. 202 00:15:30.580 --> 00:15:33.340 They know about the situations that surround them, you know. 203 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:42.260 So me and many other painters who come from the working class do this work. 204 00:15:42.700 --> 00:15:43.960 We want to do it well. 205 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:51.540 And we learn from other people, you know, from the Mexican masters, the Cicado and the rest. 206 00:15:52.020 --> 00:15:54.380 From the artists that are here, too, you know. 207 00:15:54.380 --> 00:15:59.620 They come from Mexico, they come from Europe, or other artists who are doing mural work. 208 00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:01.240 And all of them are doing political work. 209 00:16:01.660 --> 00:16:04.740 None of the murals are just painted for the hell of it, you know. 210 00:16:04.800 --> 00:16:08.780 All of them have to deal with specific situations. 211 00:16:10.180 --> 00:16:18.420 And like we have said before, maybe some, well in the 21st century, you know, people, 212 00:16:18.660 --> 00:16:21.280 other people will learn from us too, and they'll say, well, at least they contributed 213 00:16:21.900 --> 00:16:29.560 not only to the art community, but to the working class, you know, to the working class movement. 214 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:36.740 Because working people don't just work, go to the feds and come back, you know, they do a lot of things. 215 00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:41.080 They read politics, they discuss politics, you know. 216 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:46.600 In my case, I discuss politics and also do art. 217 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:56.320 Let me just do something here quick. 218 00:16:56.440 --> 00:17:01.560 I'm a little tighter, so let me just move this up a tiny bit. 219 00:17:02.980 --> 00:17:06.540 Maybe you have to adjust just a tiny bit down, Susan. 220 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:07.540 Okay, down? 221 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.540 Yeah, just wait and see if the needle where the needle is. 222 00:17:11.520 --> 00:17:14.340 I tried that double thing, it's really just kind of weird. 223 00:17:14.340 --> 00:17:15.720 It is, it is. 224 00:17:17.420 --> 00:17:20.160 Okay, scene five, take one, roll two. 225 00:17:27.540 --> 00:17:34.780 Like Carlos Cortez, Ray Vasquez, and me and the other artists, and myself, 226 00:17:36.580 --> 00:17:40.200 we tend to say that we are mostly cultural workers, you know, 227 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:45.580 because artists seem to have an aloof look to some people, you know. 228 00:17:45.780 --> 00:17:50.960 They say, you're an artist, you must have a big studio, you must live in a fancy place, you know. 229 00:17:52.600 --> 00:17:55.300 Or you must have some special talent, you know. 230 00:17:55.900 --> 00:18:00.360 We don't see it as that, we don't see it as special talent or whatever, you know. 231 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:07.020 We see it as something we're doing not only to educate ourselves, but to educate also the community. 232 00:18:10.020 --> 00:18:12.020 Like when we're painting, we're artists. 233 00:18:12.420 --> 00:18:15.440 People see us, they say, that's the artist, or that's a muralist, 234 00:18:15.700 --> 00:18:19.140 or like the kids in the neighborhood, some people say, that's a mural man. 235 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:24.000 But in that situation, they say mural because we're close to the mural, we're doing artwork. 236 00:18:25.100 --> 00:18:29.320 But if I'm at work, a lot of people don't see me, you know, as an artist, 237 00:18:29.360 --> 00:18:31.580 they see me as somebody doing a job, you know. 238 00:18:32.100 --> 00:18:37.000 So if we have to do a clean-up job, then I'm going to say, where's the artist, 239 00:18:37.600 --> 00:18:39.640 or where's the mural man, they say, where's the garbage man. 240 00:18:39.740 --> 00:18:41.520 So over there I'm known as a garbage man. 241 00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:45.960 And if I'm close to a wall painting, I'm known as the mural man or an artist. 242 00:18:47.840 --> 00:18:49.080 Depends on what kind of brush I got. 243 00:18:49.100 --> 00:18:51.640 If I got a brush in my hand painting, I'm an artist, 244 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:54.920 but if I'm picking up brushes we just cut, you know, from the bushes, 245 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:57.960 then I'm a garbage man, there you go. 246 00:18:59.360 --> 00:19:05.460 But basically, we are people who, we are cultural workers. 247 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:10.900 I mean, I would prefer that, as other artists prefer it. 248 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:15.580 But there's nothing wrong with people who want to be called artists or whatever, you know. 249 00:19:16.180 --> 00:19:21.020 It's all right with me, just that I myself am more comfortable being a cultural work, 250 00:19:21.020 --> 00:19:27.320 like Cortez or like Marco Rayer, like many, many other artists. 251 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.380 Okay, scene six, take one, roll two. 252 00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:44.860 Okay. 253 00:19:49.060 --> 00:19:51.800 Mural painting has been around for many years. 254 00:19:53.740 --> 00:19:56.180 When the, for instance, when the cavemen were doing it, 255 00:19:56.420 --> 00:19:59.280 then later on people would say that these people were backwards, 256 00:19:59.420 --> 00:20:01.800 that they were dumb, that they were like animals and this and that. 257 00:20:02.660 --> 00:20:07.740 And just recently, they've been saying that they weren't as dumb as they think, you know, 258 00:20:07.740 --> 00:20:12.780 because they were using shading and they were using different techniques. 259 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.080 Some do better work than some of the artists I know. 260 00:20:19.340 --> 00:20:25.860 Anyway, I believe that this type of art, as they were doing it, 261 00:20:25.860 --> 00:20:28.860 they were doing it for a purpose, they weren't doing it just to decorate the walls. 262 00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:32.620 We are not doing it just to decorate the walls. 263 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:38.560 So I figure that along the way, you know, even into the 21st century, 264 00:20:39.860 --> 00:20:44.080 even if the murals do deteriorate to some extent, they will say, 265 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:48.800 well, these people that were doing it, just like they were saying about the cavemen, weren't dumb. 266 00:20:48.800 --> 00:20:54.140 They knew what was going on and they took politics and then they formed their own ideas. 267 00:20:55.080 --> 00:20:59.860 And then even though they're not here, the mural service is something that was hurled at them 268 00:20:59.860 --> 00:21:06.660 so they could see it and try to figure out and try to understand the situations that were happening then. 269 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:13.300 And they will say, well, these people really meant business. 270 00:21:13.580 --> 00:21:17.420 They weren't just decorators. They were involved in politics. 271 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:22.860 They were concerned with what was going on around them, you know, what was going on in Central America. 272 00:21:24.560 --> 00:21:30.060 Hopefully by that time in the future when people are looking at it, things will be different. 273 00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:37.060 That the people in Central America won't have the death squads or they won't have, you know, 274 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:48.800 companies like the United Fruit Company or foreign investors dictating the way they should leave, you know. 275 00:21:48.800 --> 00:21:54.460 And we hope that when they look at our murals that people have documented, they will say, 276 00:21:54.500 --> 00:21:56.560 well, these people had the right idea, you know. 277 00:21:56.760 --> 00:22:02.180 We should continue to record this prosperity or whatever they have. 278 00:22:02.580 --> 00:22:09.940 Then they will continue to continue to do murals, public art, in other words, 279 00:22:10.360 --> 00:22:14.120 so that many people can always see it, always see it, you know. 280 00:22:14.120 --> 00:22:20.220 Just as people know about the caves, they will know about our murals in the 20th century.