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Well, we want to just kind of get some background and then talk about the murals and tie the

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murals and tell your photography and things like that. So first, if you could just tell

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us about your background, where you come from.

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Well, I came here from Puerto Rico in 1969, 1970. When I came here, I was already a sophomore.

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So I just went to two years high school. And after I finished, I was trying to get into

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college, but at the same time, I was working full time, right? Just when I came out of

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high school. So I went to Columbia College and that was another school that I went to.

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I went to different schools, trying just to save money, like taking a few courses here.

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And but I stopped and I went to a photography school. I finished. Then I started working

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with a few studio photography, doing mostly weddings. But suddenly I stopped because I

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was working full time and I was decided to do photography more like a hobby, you know.

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And having a family, having a kid, it was getting too expensive. But I enjoy being around

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by people within the art, people that are into painting, photography, film, even though

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I don't know that many people. In the Latino community, that I know, well now we do have

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a few because now we have television here. We do have a few channels like channel 44

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and 26 that they're producing here. It's like there will be more need for Latinos in the

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future for them to get into that, you know, to produce. Because that's what I like. I

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like to see productions done in Chicago for this community, for these Latinos. Because

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the need for the Latinos in New York are not the same. Even though we're the same people,

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but in California they're not the same, in Miami, or there are Cubans there, in New York

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they're mostly Puerto Rican, in Los Angeles they're mostly Mexican. Here we're mixed.

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So the need in this community is different. And I like to see more production. Like the

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one you're doing right now is something that reflects our view. And it's something that

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I always thought that those paintings on the wall was for us. I didn't realize that some

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other people, Europeans, do the same thing. For me, I thought that that was mostly like

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people from the ghettos, people from the low income. Because that's the way they taught

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me to see it. They showed us to see it. Like graffiti. You never see those paintings by

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Michigan Avenue. I haven't seen any. Probably there are some. And if you go to a few neighborhoods

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in Chicago, upper class, you don't see those paintings on the walls. And that's what I

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thought. That's the reason I thought that that was ours. And that was one time that

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I used to see them like they were destroying our community, our neighborhood. I used to

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see those guys painting and even though I enjoy, I saw that they need to put that in

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there too. That was like a newspaper for us. They used to tell about the history of different

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countries, like Mexico. But because I was surrounded by a few people that didn't understand

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us, I believed to a sec that that was no good. That the painting during, like graffiti, when

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you see a graffiti, because a lot of the painting that we saw there, I'm talking about when

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I first came here, in the 69's and 70's, there wasn't that many. Only a few. Now I

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believe that's everywhere. I'm not sure. In this neighborhood. In this neighborhood.

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Especially by, well, probably we see more in the Mexican neighborhood than the Puerto

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Rican and the Cubans. Because the Puerto Rican, we keep moving around. That's the way

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I see it. We haven't settled into one particular neighborhood. You may go down a division and

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say that that's the Puerto Rican community, but it's not, I don't see it that way. Because

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people there are just a group of people that live, mostly low income people, but the people

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that are struggling to work here, as soon as they start making money, they start moving

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out. It's not because they want to run from their own people, it's that they want to run

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from the surrounding. We haven't established, that's the way I see it myself, we haven't

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established that. You may find Puerto Rican in Uptown, in Lakeview, here in Logan, but

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it's not like the Mexican where the businessmen spend their money there. You go by 26th Street

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and you see how they fix those business. And you see how they're taking care. Probably

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they don't spend that much money into their own neighborhood, but at least their businesses

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are neat compared to ours. It's like we're taking the money out of there and we're not

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putting the money back into it. So I don't see that many paintings around. When you go

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by 18th and Blue Island, you see more there. I don't know if it's because it's more abandoned

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there and it's easier to do it without permission. I like to see those paintings on the walls,

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but at the same time, if I know that they're going to put one next to my house, I have

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to see what they're going to put on it. I want to see something that will look nice

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and that's the problem with those paintings, that a lot of people won't agree with what

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they're trying to say or to tell people. I like all kinds, but I like the one that tells

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something, like what's really going on with our countries. Being Latino and being Puerto

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Rican, we had to identify ourselves because if I said that I'm American, that doesn't

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sound right. I mean, my parent, he was American because he was a black man. He was a black

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man because we'd been part of the United States for 80 years. But even though you ask my father,

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he will never say that he's American, even though he loved and respected this country.

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And the same thing happened to my son right now. He will identify himself with Puerto

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Rican, being a Puerto Rican. That's, it don't matter what. So I like to see those paintings

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that reflect our ways, our thinking. Not all of them, but at least, you know, that's

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what I always saw in the murals. I always saw that they reflect, like, political, like

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there was no newspaper for us. There was no access for us to tell something. It's not

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until probably five years ago that we started having radio and television, like 24 hours.

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Now we are, we do have FM radio 24 hours a day. We do have television that is competing.

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And I know they're competing with the other networks at some time. When you're saying

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that we are probably 5 percent, or I don't know the percentage of Latinos in Chicago,

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but I know that we are numbers. So I know that those television stations are competing

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in ratings, you know, with the others. But we still have the need for those paintings

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on the wall because the people who run those television and TV stations, they're not going

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to allow us to tell what we want. Most of the programs that are coming are produced

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somewhere else. And they are like, we, for instance, we do have China 44 that we know

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is run by the same Televisa from Mexico. So in a way they're being controlled. It's always

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going to be that way. So I believe that we still have the need for those paintings on

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the walls. And there always will be. And that's what I would like to see more art into it,

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contemporary. But if they start putting only contemporary painting on the walls, I don't

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know. I won't see it the same way. It's like you want to see the struggle of the people.

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That's what I see in those paintings on the walls. Do you see the struggle? Like people

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fighting. We're here and we're still fighting. And that's the way it's going to be. And I

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don't know if it's Latinos only, because I don't know how the Chinese here in Chicago

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live and how some other community. But I identify myself as a Latino, even though I'm Puerto

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Rican. And I'm always looking into different activities that Latinos are involved in. I

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don't care if they're Mexican or Cubans. It's something that I believe that I would

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like to see, I know it probably never would be possible for us to get together. We're

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not talking about creating a nation to fight against any other nation. No, just for us

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to realize that we are one. And we may have two different ways of expressing ourselves,

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even the way we talk. But we still have the same. We do have a lot of things in common

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to the Wiccanos. So that's the way I...

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What kind of things are you saying that the murals say things for the community that don't

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get said anyplace else like on TV or in newspapers? What kind of messages do you see the murals?

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What is the struggle? What are the murals saying?

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Well they're telling the people to wake up. That it has to be a better way for us. I mean

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when you walk down the Visions Street and you see that... you see when you walk down

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the Visions Street, you see burn, that they're burning burdens. And you see the so-called

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Jopis or Jopis taking over. That they're buying. I'm running from the area and they're

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buying. And I say, well why? They're smarter than me. And I see a painting telling me not

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to go, not to run. That's my house. So that's the way I see it. Every place you go, like

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if you go by Rockwell and Potomac, there's one where there's a girl looking at the window

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and you see the fire coming through the window. And she's there crying that she's burning

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herself. At the same time you see that so many anti-lacs. But you see those professional

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people buying more, taking over. We're running from our own people. And those professionals

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are remattering, rehabbing. And you see those paintings and that's the way I see it. And

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if you give me a piece of paper with the same paint, you know, with the same thing on a

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piece of paper, I will see it only once. And if you are intelligent, if you just see it

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once, you will know what's going on. But a lot of people will take time for them to realize

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what the artist or the person who put that in there was trying to tell. And that's how

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I see it, that they're telling us something, but they better put it on the wall. For us

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to keep seeing that thing every day, every day we go to work, we see it. And I talk about

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it. I used to, when I used to be out there with friends and we used to look at the painting,

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I used to tell what I see. But I believe they tell something. And every place you go and

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you see one of those, I believe the artist who picked those, even if it could be the

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same person, he sees the need to each neighborhood that he goes to. He may not go to Lincoln

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Park and put the same one he put on Humboldt Park, because it doesn't look nice. Lincoln

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Park, you may put something for children. You're going to see children running around.

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They never been west of Chicago, so there's no need for him to go there and put one, you

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know, he needs to put one with flowers and a farm or something, something that those

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kids never see. But on the west side, the kids know what that paint there means, those

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murals there. So that's the way I see it.

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Yeah years ago I used to photograph those and I used to talk about it. But at that time

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I did not know the people who paint those murals there. I was by myself. And some of

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my friends used to say, well you spend so much money on those films instead of taking

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pictures of people. And I said that's what I'm doing. But then because you're by yourself

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and I wasn't fighting, at that time I was not fighting for anyone, I just was taking

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pictures of myself. And I used to discuss this with my brothers. Some of them used to

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live on Wicker Park and they moved out of there. And now I go, I tell them why don't

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you drive by Hoyne Avenue and take a look to those buildings you used to live. They

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chase you out of there. And why don't you go down Bucktown and around here on Logan

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Square. I'm here and I want to stay here. And I tell my brother, it's like when you

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are one of those ministers. I tell them they all live around here and I tell them stay

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here. Because I walk, I love Chicago. I like Chicago when I walk and I look at the architecture

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and everything. So I was taking pictures of those paintings on the walls. And I was always

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taking pictures of them. And I used to take them for that reason, to maintain because

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I know they won't be around. I knew that the building would be torn down and the painting

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won't be there. They're going to put graffiti on top. They're going to write it all over.

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So that was the reason I was taking those pictures, to keep them. And I tell my brother

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I thought about making posters and just for myself. And probably I do have a few around

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in the future. When I look at some of those pictures and you go back there, the building

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is not there anymore. Whoever took over the building on rehab, he sent blast to the building.

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He didn't care about the message that was there. And the leaders, our leaders, they

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don't know anything about the painting and they didn't care. For them, even though we

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are not, we're educated and same in the arts, but we prefer to see one painting from Picasso

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because everyone talks about it. They see our own life in a painting. And that's the

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reason I started taking those pictures. It's like to maintain, to keep before they will.

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But I'm sure they're going to keep putting those up even though we don't see that many

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buildings able to do it. I don't know how they do it, but probably that's the reason

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I said before that they put more on 18th Street and Blue Island because there are so many

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vacant buildings.

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Q. Do you think they, have you noticed that they have an impact on the community when

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a new mural goes up?

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A. I believe they do. They do because they fight. They organize. It's easier for you

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to get them organized when you can tell them the reasons. It's like when you go and see

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one of those abstract pictures, that unless someone comes to me and explains what that

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means, he's not telling me anything because I'm not an artist. I don't know that much

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about painting. I just see signs all over. I just see brushes going different directions.

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But if someone explains to me, you don't need to be a graduate from the university to understand

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the painting, but someone must tell you something. It's like when you see some of the big ones

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like Picasso or Goya, people that know about art, they keep arguing with each other about

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what they see there. So if you're not there, I would say both of them are crazy. But when

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you tell the people, our people, what that means, because you may paint a building that

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is on fire, and they don't realize that you're painting their life. They don't realize.

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But when you tell them that you're trying to put a message across, they will fight to

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keep that in there. And I know because it happened before, so many times a group of

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people get organized to protect that painting. And I believe they do. They do because they

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Can we jump back a little ways? When you first came here, so you were in high school. Can

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you talk a little bit about the difference? I mean, there must have been a real different

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environment, Puerto Rico and Chicago. What were your first impressions?

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When I came, I was looking for, when you are in Puerto Rico and you see those movies about

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New York, you see the paradise that they are. You see the way people live. You never see

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the surrounding. I mean, if you see those kids by Harlem in New York, you think that

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they're in the construction site, that they're running in the construction site. You don't

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realize that they live there and there is no construction. There's a destruction that's

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going on there. Those are abandoned buildings. But because they give you only what they want

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to show on movies, when my relatives, they used to go there, even though some of them

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used to be probably on welfare. Oh no, they won't tell you that. They only tell you about

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how they live, how well they live. People usually when they go on vacation, they save

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a couple of bucks. They save money. You see the way they spend money. They don't care.

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So you want to come here. So when I came and I looked around and I didn't say anything,

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I was already 16. I saw the cars that they have. I said, oh, car. In Puerto Rico, most

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people have new cars. I mean, even though per capita is less money there, but probably

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they fight more to have the things. Well, probably because they watch so much television

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there in Puerto Rico that in Puerto Rico they try to compete. I was shocked when I came

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here because I was expecting something more. I always enjoyed the architecture. I don't

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know the reasons, but since I was at that age, I enjoy. I love Chicago because of the

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architecture. But even you won't see it when you live down Division Street. The surrounding

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that you live didn't allow me to see the architecture the way I see it now because I see that some

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of the people there, there wasn't responsible. I mean, because they live clean inside their

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houses. They live in the way they live, the surrounding. And you still see it. You may

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go down any poor neighborhood and you see how the neighborhood looks. But you may go

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inside and you may find a clean apartment, a decent place to be, where you're going

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to have a glass of water from that kitchen because you know it's clean, even though you

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see all the garbage thrown in the alley. But that was the impression. When I came here,

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I was expecting to see something beautiful. Beautiful in a way that, I don't know, like

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money on the street or people, friendly people. Also something that I didn't like when I came

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here, they used to tell me, be careful don't go that way because the white people there.

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Or be careful don't go that way because the black people. So in Puerto Rico they may have

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races, I mean, they're groups that divide themselves. I believe in all communities that

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will happen. But because we're mixed and you may see a white Puerto Rican, a black Puerto

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Rican. In Puerto Rico we, when someone call you black, that mean negrito, in Puerto Rico

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they're calling you honey. Here's the other way around. When they're calling you negrito,

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that mean nigger, and means the other, you know. So it took me probably a year between

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the time that I started making friends to realize that the first time I started making

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friends, the first couple of months I was crying, I wanted to go back. But after a year

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or two, I don't know, it's like you get to understand that it's not so bad. There's always

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a place to move, a place to go. And a lot of times, that's what I tell some of my friends,

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listen, we have problems, we all have problems. And I know there's discrimination. But let's

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not assume that everything that happens to us is because someone is doing it to us. There

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are times that we're doing it to ourselves. And, you know, that's all. That's it.