WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:17.840 Okay, let's drape this so that, and then I will ask, we can ask them to do this. 2 00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:21.420 Let me hear your level. 3 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:22.260 Just give me a level. 4 00:00:22.400 --> 00:00:26.040 Okay, this is my level, this is my level, this is my level, this is my level, this 5 00:00:26.040 --> 00:00:29.980 is my level, this is my level, this is my level, this is my level, this is my level, 6 00:00:29.980 --> 00:00:29.980 7 00:00:29.980 --> 00:00:29.980 8 00:00:29.980 --> 00:00:29.980 9 00:00:29.980 --> 00:00:29.980 10 00:00:29.980 --> 00:00:29.980 11 00:00:31.200 --> 00:00:31.840 Okay. 12 00:00:33.580 --> 00:00:33.580 13 00:00:34.380 --> 00:00:34.380 14 00:00:34.780 --> 00:00:35.120 Hello? 15 00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:37.900 Hello? 16 00:00:39.220 --> 00:00:39.640 Hello? 17 00:00:40.460 --> 00:00:40.760 Hello? 18 00:00:41.440 --> 00:00:41.460 Hello? 19 00:00:41.460 --> 00:00:41.640 Hello? 20 00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:41.920 21 00:00:42.500 --> 00:00:42.500 22 00:00:42.780 --> 00:00:43.100 Hello? 23 00:00:43.100 --> 00:00:43.980 Yeah, it should be okay. 24 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:51.000 Say something again. 25 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:51.540 Hello? 26 00:00:51.820 --> 00:00:52.960 Hello, how are you? 27 00:00:53.440 --> 00:00:58.460 Today is Thursday the 12th. 28 00:00:59.420 --> 00:00:59.960 Okay, what I want to do is, I want to ask you, what is your level? 29 00:00:59.960 --> 00:00:59.960 30 00:00:59.960 --> 00:00:59.960 31 00:00:59.960 --> 00:00:59.960 32 00:00:59.960 --> 00:00:59.960 33 00:00:59.960 --> 00:00:59.960 34 00:00:59.960 --> 00:00:59.960 35 00:00:59.960 --> 00:00:59.960 36 00:00:59.960 --> 00:00:59.960 37 00:00:59.960 --> 00:00:59.960 38 00:00:59.960 --> 00:00:59.960 39 00:01:00.500 --> 00:01:09.460 I'd like to start out asking you, tell me first what you want to, what kinds of things 40 00:01:09.460 --> 00:01:10.240 you want to get out of it. 41 00:01:10.360 --> 00:01:14.240 I'll tell you what, I have not seen a thorough article on facets multi-meaning. 42 00:01:14.260 --> 00:01:14.640 Okay. 43 00:01:15.380 --> 00:01:22.300 And what I'd like to get out of this is, because there is a feeling over here that is nowhere 44 00:01:22.300 --> 00:01:29.460 else in Chicago, and that is a complete generosity among the people here. 45 00:01:30.060 --> 00:01:35.700 And commitment and love of the films and of the activities that are here. 46 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:38.300 So it's a credit to you and Nicole. 47 00:01:40.020 --> 00:01:47.100 And what I wanted to do is trace where you were, just simply really fast, tell me where 48 00:01:47.100 --> 00:01:50.840 you started out, how long you were there, what kind of a place it was, what you were 49 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:51.760 confronted with. 50 00:01:52.520 --> 00:01:53.620 Why don't we start there? 51 00:01:54.180 --> 00:01:54.180 52 00:01:54.660 --> 00:01:57.800 Where did you first, you know, go? 53 00:01:58.840 --> 00:01:59.640 Okay, in... 54 00:02:00.060 --> 00:02:02.440 First of all, you came over here from Czechoslovakia. 55 00:02:02.500 --> 00:02:03.640 Right, in 1962. 56 00:02:03.900 --> 00:02:04.820 And how old were you then? 57 00:02:04.900 --> 00:02:05.480 You were a young kid. 58 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:06.060 I was 13. 59 00:02:06.160 --> 00:02:07.200 13 years old. 60 00:02:07.880 --> 00:02:09.580 And you had lived in Prague? 61 00:02:09.820 --> 00:02:11.000 I had lived close to Prague. 62 00:02:11.020 --> 00:02:11.760 Close to Prague. 63 00:02:11.760 --> 00:02:13.120 In a suburb or in a what? 64 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:14.700 No, in a small town, very small town. 65 00:02:14.740 --> 00:02:15.380 Small town. 66 00:02:15.740 --> 00:02:16.980 You knew Kadav? 67 00:02:17.380 --> 00:02:18.280 No, I didn't know him. 68 00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:18.900 You did not know Kadav? 69 00:02:18.900 --> 00:02:19.520 No, no, no. 70 00:02:19.600 --> 00:02:19.960 Uh-huh. 71 00:02:21.180 --> 00:02:25.020 I knew, you know, I knew nothing about film. 72 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:30.640 I mean, as a child, I had very little exposure to film because I lived in a small town that 73 00:02:30.640 --> 00:02:31.560 didn't have a theater. 74 00:02:32.580 --> 00:02:38.020 So if I saw, besides TV, which at the time in the late 50s in Eastern Europe was very 75 00:02:38.020 --> 00:02:43.440 limited anyway, if I, there's probably three movies that I remember from my childhood, 76 00:02:43.500 --> 00:02:44.200 and that's about it. 77 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:46.080 So it was pretty devoid of film. 78 00:02:46.380 --> 00:02:50.720 In other words, you had not seen even, they were not playing American films in your youth 79 00:02:50.720 --> 00:02:51.820 anyway, were they? 80 00:02:51.820 --> 00:02:56.120 You know, honestly, now and since then, I've thought about it obviously, you know, but 81 00:02:56.120 --> 00:03:04.380 since then I remember one film that I remember, that I remember ever seeing in Czechoslovakia 82 00:03:04.380 --> 00:03:05.640 as a Czech film. 83 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:08.240 And I tracked the dances. 84 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:12.320 I mean, I know what the film is now, but that's the only film that's in my memory really is 85 00:03:12.320 --> 00:03:14.020 from my childhood to 13. 86 00:03:14.200 --> 00:03:16.380 And you had not seen any French films or anything else? 87 00:03:16.380 --> 00:03:17.460 No, not at all. 88 00:03:17.460 --> 00:03:21.720 Then I went to Australia and I went to, I think, two drive-ins there that I was taken 89 00:03:21.720 --> 00:03:22.460 to as a child. 90 00:03:24.220 --> 00:03:28.120 When I came to Chicago when I was 13, you know, I did probably whatever a kid does, 91 00:03:28.140 --> 00:03:37.580 which is, you know, you're OD on junk on Saturday afternoon, junk matinees, you know, seeing 92 00:03:37.580 --> 00:03:40.520 a combination of Hammer films and BXB movies. 93 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:41.740 Oh, you saw the Hammer films? 94 00:03:41.760 --> 00:03:42.720 Yeah, of course. 95 00:03:43.160 --> 00:03:43.840 Which did you like? 96 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:49.840 I remember Marshall Square, at Marshall Square Theatre on 22nd and Marshall Square Boulevard, 97 00:03:50.460 --> 00:03:51.880 which is where I went to movies as a kid. 98 00:03:52.420 --> 00:03:56.400 But you know, again, that's far from any kind of formative film experience. 99 00:03:57.660 --> 00:04:04.020 I was much more interested in literature and spent some time owning a used bookstore, which 100 00:04:04.020 --> 00:04:06.200 is where I did my very first film program. 101 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:06.800 102 00:04:07.760 --> 00:04:13.520 Did you, you went to school obviously in Czechoslovakia, then in Australia where you went? 103 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:15.100 Where you came from, the United States. 104 00:04:15.260 --> 00:04:19.040 Right, I went to, in Australia it was quite a shock, you know, because I didn't speak 105 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:23.400 any English when I came to Australia, so the only thing which happened is that I learned 106 00:04:23.400 --> 00:04:27.400 English like a first language, really, rather than a second language. 107 00:04:28.640 --> 00:04:31.280 And then I went to, you know, public schools in Chicago. 108 00:04:31.640 --> 00:04:35.660 Were they kind of, was it kind of a traumatic experience or not? 109 00:04:35.900 --> 00:04:37.240 Kind of tough school in Chicago. 110 00:04:37.300 --> 00:04:38.220 Where did you go with school? 111 00:04:38.260 --> 00:04:39.380 I went to Farragut High School. 112 00:04:39.380 --> 00:04:43.500 It was a very easy experience in comparison, you know, because English schools are much 113 00:04:43.500 --> 00:04:50.140 more structured and Australian schools really are, probably at the time, were more structured 114 00:04:50.140 --> 00:04:53.400 than English schools were at the time, even though they were public schools. 115 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:55.400 I mean, there were uniforms that held business. 116 00:04:55.580 --> 00:04:59.940 I know, the uniforms were still held over before they were... 117 00:04:59.940 --> 00:05:03.000 And so this was an interesting experience in Farragut. 118 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:07.260 I did my, actually the very first movie that I ever showed is in high school. 119 00:05:07.260 --> 00:05:10.880 I belonged to a science club because I was very interested in science. 120 00:05:12.860 --> 00:05:18.260 And I showed Invasion of the Body Snatchers, not as a benefit for the science club, the 121 00:05:18.260 --> 00:05:19.240 old version, right? 122 00:05:19.500 --> 00:05:22.020 Not knowing anything about the movie at all. 123 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:26.440 I mean, it was, you know, out of no respect to the love of Don Siegel or, as an American 124 00:05:26.440 --> 00:05:27.720 science fiction classic. 125 00:05:28.020 --> 00:05:33.740 And it's very interesting because that movie, the principal received a complaint on that 126 00:05:33.740 --> 00:05:37.540 because at the time when the Catholic... 127 00:05:38.380 --> 00:05:38.860 What's it called? 128 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:39.960 The... 129 00:05:39.960 --> 00:05:40.900 Legion of Decency. 130 00:05:40.900 --> 00:05:46.800 Legion of Decency ratings were still paid very close attention to a parent complained 131 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.860 and said that the Legion of Decency at the time had condemned it, you know, because it 132 00:05:50.860 --> 00:05:52.460 probably was a disrespectful of God. 133 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:56.260 So that was really the very first thing like that. 134 00:05:56.260 --> 00:06:03.780 Then when I owned the bookstore, which was a used bookstore, or antiquarian bookstore 135 00:06:04.760 --> 00:06:06.600 on 5200 North Clark Street. 136 00:06:06.700 --> 00:06:08.740 It was a 5200 North Clark? 137 00:06:08.880 --> 00:06:12.860 Right, it was the first one after which it moved to Halsted. 138 00:06:13.380 --> 00:06:13.960 But anyway... 139 00:06:13.960 --> 00:06:15.060 It was called the Antiquarian? 140 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:16.420 It was called Action Bookstore. 141 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:18.040 Oh pardon me, Action Bookstore. 142 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:19.000 And what kind of books? 143 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.760 A lot of philosophy, you know, a lot of literature. 144 00:06:23.400 --> 00:06:24.640 Who were your favorite? 145 00:06:24.640 --> 00:06:29.220 In other words, you stocked it with the kind of books you wanted also to sell, did you not? 146 00:06:29.380 --> 00:06:33.240 Well, that's always the tragic thing because what you like doesn't sell. 147 00:06:33.860 --> 00:06:34.260 Exactly. 148 00:06:35.060 --> 00:06:36.420 What were you selling? 149 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:37.820 What did you... 150 00:06:37.820 --> 00:06:44.100 What we sold a lot of, you know, even at the time, which was in the late 60s or very early 151 00:06:44.100 --> 00:06:48.160 70s, I mean you sold a lot of occult because that was really the beginning of the occult 152 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:52.840 interest before the market really got gluttoned. 153 00:06:52.840 --> 00:07:06.680 And we acquired a very good collection of philosophy from a lawyer who had been shot 154 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:08.920 in Chicago and his wife had sold the collection. 155 00:07:09.020 --> 00:07:11.440 He had been shot by another lawyer on the street. 156 00:07:12.380 --> 00:07:13.220 And killed? 157 00:07:13.260 --> 00:07:14.500 Killed, oh yes, killed. 158 00:07:15.540 --> 00:07:20.560 I'm sure he never read the books that he bought, I mean they're very expensive, very esoteric 159 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:21.680 philosophy, you know. 160 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:27.280 I mean not just Camus and Sartre, I mean this was Wittgenstein and very, very, a lot of 161 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:28.180 his friends. 162 00:07:30.020 --> 00:07:34.400 But the interesting thing about him was that the only thing that he did is stamp his name 163 00:07:34.400 --> 00:07:37.160 probably six times inside each cover of the book. 164 00:07:37.220 --> 00:07:40.020 I mean he had this obsession with having his name all over his possessions. 165 00:07:40.900 --> 00:07:46.460 But anyway, we show the first movie there, which was Dostoevsky's 150th Birthday, which 166 00:07:46.460 --> 00:07:47.380 was an event... 167 00:07:47.380 --> 00:07:48.480 Now this is on the Clark Street address, right? 168 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:49.620 On the Clark Street address, right. 169 00:07:49.620 --> 00:07:49.960 Right. 170 00:07:49.960 --> 00:07:58.220 Which was an event, you know, treated rather substantially in Russia, but very little in 171 00:07:58.220 --> 00:07:58.680 America. 172 00:07:58.800 --> 00:07:59.780 Except for Stutts-Turkle. 173 00:08:00.140 --> 00:08:01.080 Except for Stutts-Turkle. 174 00:08:01.660 --> 00:08:04.780 We showed the Russian version of The Idiot. 175 00:08:06.940 --> 00:08:09.120 Do you remember the director of... 176 00:08:09.700 --> 00:08:11.480 Very Konchalovsky or something like that. 177 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:14.840 I mean nobody super big, it was only part one that's available here. 178 00:08:14.860 --> 00:08:17.000 But that was the very first film ever. 179 00:08:17.880 --> 00:08:20.420 After that when we moved to... 180 00:08:20.420 --> 00:08:26.500 The bookstore was moved because the lease was renewed to 2146 North Halstead. 181 00:08:26.860 --> 00:08:28.140 Then we did some more films there. 182 00:08:28.280 --> 00:08:28.980 We did... 183 00:08:28.980 --> 00:08:29.660 Okay, 20... 184 00:08:29.660 --> 00:08:30.600 Now this is on Halstead. 185 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:31.600 Give me the address again. 186 00:08:31.960 --> 00:08:33.140 2146 North Halstead. 187 00:08:33.220 --> 00:08:33.420 Yeah. 188 00:08:34.680 --> 00:08:40.540 Then we did films there and really did the first consistent program, which was a Czech 189 00:08:40.540 --> 00:08:41.220 film festival. 190 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:43.540 By the way, who did you contact for the Czech film? 191 00:08:43.560 --> 00:08:45.780 Did you contact Konsole? 192 00:08:45.860 --> 00:08:46.900 Konsole, the branching people? 193 00:08:46.900 --> 00:08:52.100 It all came from distributors, but it was a very stumbling way to really do it. 194 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:54.800 How would you have done it had you known what you know now? 195 00:08:55.980 --> 00:08:57.200 I probably wouldn't have done it. 196 00:09:00.800 --> 00:09:02.900 But it worked relatively well. 197 00:09:04.020 --> 00:09:06.680 How many people now were part of the scene? 198 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:09.880 I had a partner in the bookstore and that was me and him. 199 00:09:09.920 --> 00:09:10.480 That was it. 200 00:09:10.640 --> 00:09:13.140 And then you had a following of people who wanted to see the film. 201 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:13.820 Did you know? 202 00:09:13.820 --> 00:09:16.980 We ran out of the projector, ran out of the films, ran out of the chairs, ran out of the 203 00:09:16.980 --> 00:09:18.080 screen, rented everything. 204 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:18.960 It was in the bookstore itself? 205 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:19.960 It was in the bookstore. 206 00:09:22.660 --> 00:09:26.580 I don't know whether it made money or lost money, but if it made any, it certainly didn't 207 00:09:26.580 --> 00:09:27.120 make much. 208 00:09:27.400 --> 00:09:32.820 But at the time, it was more expanding the cultural attraction to the bookstore, although 209 00:09:32.820 --> 00:09:34.300 it really didn't sell any books either. 210 00:09:35.340 --> 00:09:37.460 But anyway, that was it for a while. 211 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:40.800 Did you have any Czech authors in the bookstore? 212 00:09:40.800 --> 00:09:44.420 Were you selling to Czech or Central Europeans? 213 00:09:45.060 --> 00:09:47.660 There was very little translated of Czech authors. 214 00:09:48.260 --> 00:09:49.200 Very little is. 215 00:09:50.040 --> 00:09:52.440 What about the Solider Schweik? 216 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.080 Solider Schweik is it and that existed in a bad translation until recently. 217 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:57.560 Very bad translation until recently. 218 00:09:57.560 --> 00:09:58.220 Until recently. 219 00:09:59.340 --> 00:10:04.040 And the only thing that's happened is that Philip Roth has now taken some of the younger 220 00:10:04.040 --> 00:10:07.840 Czech authors under his wing for some reason only known to him. 221 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:13.700 So I think Penguin or Somebody is now publishing a series called The Other Europe or something 222 00:10:13.700 --> 00:10:14.080 like that. 223 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:18.900 So they're publishing like Kundera and some of the younger writers. 224 00:10:19.560 --> 00:10:30.240 But anyway, then in 1973, I ended up at a very small live theater which was down the 225 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:31.140 street from the bookstore. 226 00:10:31.740 --> 00:10:32.460 On Hosted. 227 00:10:32.540 --> 00:10:35.300 On Hosted, which is called the Drama Shelter. 228 00:10:35.300 --> 00:10:40.380 And in an attempt to increase their audiences and get them better known, I started a film 229 00:10:40.380 --> 00:10:43.680 series there which was called the Rare Cinema Series. 230 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:53.220 And all it really was was one foreign film a week with some interesting things. 231 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:57.420 Again, taking chances out of ignorance and things that I would be very scared to take 232 00:10:57.420 --> 00:10:58.280 a chance on now. 233 00:10:59.900 --> 00:11:04.500 And it was there that I really met Nicole for the first time. 234 00:11:04.500 --> 00:11:07.420 Yes, I heard that she was at the Drama Shelter. 235 00:11:07.580 --> 00:11:10.620 Now what kind of thing was she doing at the Drama Shelter? 236 00:11:10.680 --> 00:11:14.520 In other words, what kind of script or work was she directing? 237 00:11:14.560 --> 00:11:19.240 Okay, well they were a very small, struggling, really amateur theater. 238 00:11:19.340 --> 00:11:23.200 I mean although they aspired to the professional as all of them did at the time. 239 00:11:23.960 --> 00:11:30.920 But she had come from Oberlin College where she worked with Herbert Blau under the Oberlin 240 00:11:30.920 --> 00:11:31.440 Group. 241 00:11:32.500 --> 00:11:32.940 Blau? 242 00:11:33.140 --> 00:11:33.580 Blau. 243 00:11:33.580 --> 00:11:38.900 Blau is a good director, but he's not a dance director. 244 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:39.940 No, it's not dance. 245 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:43.340 Blau had directed stuff off of Broadway. 246 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.020 Right, Herbert has a very strange history. 247 00:11:47.860 --> 00:11:53.040 He set up really what was like, it still is remnants of, really the first professional 248 00:11:53.040 --> 00:11:55.900 theater training program in this country, which was at CalArts. 249 00:11:56.880 --> 00:11:58.300 And he had a very good approach to it. 250 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.900 He invited the best people from all over the world to come and teach. 251 00:12:00.900 --> 00:12:06.760 I think, who's the person, was one of the students, was, who's in Bonnie and Clyde? 252 00:12:06.780 --> 00:12:09.620 The last direction of six characters in Search of an Author, which was fantastic. 253 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:11.580 Who was in Bonnie and Clyde? 254 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:12.380 The woman. 255 00:12:12.500 --> 00:12:14.660 You're talking about, which, the woman? 256 00:12:14.860 --> 00:12:15.300 The woman. 257 00:12:16.580 --> 00:12:18.640 God, yeah, the model, yeah. 258 00:12:19.020 --> 00:12:21.200 She was one of the students anyway, Herbert's students. 259 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:21.940 No, she was a barista, yeah. 260 00:12:22.160 --> 00:12:22.300 Okay. 261 00:12:22.300 --> 00:12:28.680 And then, Herbert always, I mean Herbert is very political and very... 262 00:12:28.680 --> 00:12:30.180 He had, on off Broadway... 263 00:12:30.180 --> 00:12:33.720 Yes, he went to Lincoln Center and he was the first director of Lincoln Center and he 264 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:35.580 got into trouble there for... 265 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:37.100 He was not from San Francisco. 266 00:12:37.660 --> 00:12:38.860 That was not the Blau from San Francisco. 267 00:12:39.020 --> 00:12:39.760 That was the same one. 268 00:12:40.020 --> 00:12:41.700 Okay, Blau from San Francisco, okay, I got it now. 269 00:12:41.860 --> 00:12:46.380 Blau also directed prior to that, off Broadway, six characters in Search of an Author at the 270 00:12:46.380 --> 00:12:47.980 Martinique Hotel, which exists no longer. 271 00:12:48.060 --> 00:12:54.280 He was literally the first person to bring people like Genet and Brecht to America. 272 00:12:54.500 --> 00:12:55.740 I mean, there's a lot of credit for that. 273 00:12:55.760 --> 00:12:58.580 He's written a book called The Impossible Theater, which some years ago... 274 00:12:59.080 --> 00:13:02.100 Did he direct Genet in New York or not? 275 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:02.740 In New York, yes. 276 00:13:02.740 --> 00:13:03.280 In the Circle? 277 00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:04.320 Could be. 278 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:05.220 I don't know exactly. 279 00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:05.240 Could be. 280 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:06.220 Yeah, because I saw it a lot. 281 00:13:06.400 --> 00:13:08.360 But he got into a lot of problems. 282 00:13:08.500 --> 00:13:13.580 I mean, there again, politically, in San Francisco during the late 60s for having his actors 283 00:13:13.580 --> 00:13:15.880 lay down on the streets in protest of Vietnam. 284 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:22.080 And then he ended up at Oberlin College where he brought some of his people from CalArts, 285 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:23.140 went with him to Oberlin. 286 00:13:23.140 --> 00:13:29.360 And he had a department set up under, I think, interdisciplinary or intra-arts program, 287 00:13:29.860 --> 00:13:33.380 where he started what was, in the end, a professional theater company. 288 00:13:33.420 --> 00:13:39.900 This time, with a lot of the teachers in terms of Grotowski, in physical theater. 289 00:13:40.400 --> 00:13:44.900 Their first piece, which Nicole was in, was Seeds of Atreus, which she toured. 290 00:13:45.140 --> 00:13:46.700 Okay, what is it? Seeds of Atreus? 291 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:49.800 Seeds of Atreus, which was based on the Oristaya... 292 00:13:49.800 --> 00:13:50.420 The cycle. 293 00:13:50.680 --> 00:13:51.560 The cycle, right. 294 00:13:53.720 --> 00:14:00.180 And subsequently, he did the Donner Party, after which she left Oberlin, was in Maryland, 295 00:14:00.300 --> 00:14:01.140 he had a new group. 296 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:04.700 I don't know what's happened to him recently, I mean, it's like in the last year that I 297 00:14:04.700 --> 00:14:04.700 298 00:14:04.700 --> 00:14:09.500 So it's more than Blau, it's other, it's, for instance, her, what she is doing now is 299 00:14:09.500 --> 00:14:10.180 a combination. 300 00:14:10.900 --> 00:14:12.320 Could it be called physical? 301 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:14.920 It's like a psychophysical theater. 302 00:14:15.220 --> 00:14:15.980 Psychophysical theater. 303 00:14:16.020 --> 00:14:17.380 Which derives from Grotowski. 304 00:14:17.620 --> 00:14:17.620 305 00:14:17.620 --> 00:14:19.200 No, which derives from Grotowski. 306 00:14:19.500 --> 00:14:19.940 Grotowski? 307 00:14:19.940 --> 00:14:23.120 Which is not dance, because none of the actors ever had a stitch of dance. 308 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:27.360 Well, and then it's Germanic, it goes back to the German, because is it not, does it 309 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:34.060 not have some German origin, because I'm thinking about, well that goes back to modern dance, 310 00:14:34.100 --> 00:14:35.000 which is Germanic. 311 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:40.200 It goes, well really, you know, it goes back to Atoll, really, was the first, really, well, 312 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:41.400 if you want to trace it back... 313 00:14:41.400 --> 00:14:42.140 Let's trace it. 314 00:14:42.540 --> 00:14:47.940 Philosophically, okay, I mean, this was all traced in retrospect, because Grotowski supposedly 315 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.940 had his theories ignorant of Atoll, I mean, although... 316 00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:52.620 And let's not go back, if that's the case. 317 00:14:52.780 --> 00:14:56.140 Okay, and then before that was Meyerhold, you know, instead of taking back. 318 00:14:57.020 --> 00:14:58.280 But, you know... 319 00:14:58.280 --> 00:15:03.640 And that is, then that is really basically influenced by expressionism. 320 00:15:04.540 --> 00:15:07.080 Meyerhold certainly influenced expressionism. 321 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:10.340 To a large extent, although, you know, in terms of... 322 00:15:10.340 --> 00:15:11.160 Constructivist also. 323 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:12.460 Constructivist. 324 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:17.580 And futurist, although really in combining it, nobody has ever successfully gone back 325 00:15:17.580 --> 00:15:20.580 and combined this and said, this is the development, you know, there is like... 326 00:15:21.280 --> 00:15:26.020 So it was really sort of, Nicholas is more or less a disciple of Grotowski's, then is 327 00:15:26.020 --> 00:15:26.600 that it or not? 328 00:15:27.100 --> 00:15:29.980 Through the line, I mean, that was their foundation, right. 329 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:30.680 All right, fine. 330 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:34.960 So it is a kind of theater that is rather, it's unique. 331 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:36.160 It's non-narrative. 332 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:36.980 Non-narrative. 333 00:15:37.520 --> 00:15:41.580 It aims at making the actor the center of the creative process. 334 00:15:42.460 --> 00:15:44.520 The actor then contributes what? 335 00:15:44.620 --> 00:15:45.820 Does he contribute lines? 336 00:15:45.820 --> 00:15:47.380 The actor contributes everything. 337 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:52.520 He contributes, first of all, it aims at developing the actor physically by giving him an instrument 338 00:15:52.520 --> 00:15:55.120 to work with in terms of developing his body and voice. 339 00:15:55.260 --> 00:15:56.820 I mean, through very, very consistent... 340 00:15:57.580 --> 00:16:00.880 What exercises does the actor take in order to come into these rehearsals? 341 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:05.060 Well, what they use here, what this theory uses is Grotowski details, which are like 342 00:16:05.060 --> 00:16:07.320 asymmetrical, gymnastic derivatives. 343 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:10.000 Does Grotowski have a book on this subject? 344 00:16:11.180 --> 00:16:15.300 A lot of series of interviews and one book which is not like a manual. 345 00:16:15.300 --> 00:16:19.540 It's more like a series, again, a collection of interviews, talks, this kind of thing called 346 00:16:19.540 --> 00:16:20.520 Towards a Poor Theater. 347 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:22.700 He was not a Native American? 348 00:16:22.820 --> 00:16:23.480 It's Polish. 349 00:16:23.800 --> 00:16:24.460 It was Polish. 350 00:16:24.500 --> 00:16:29.160 And he worked for a long time and had a theater company in Wroclaw. 351 00:16:30.140 --> 00:16:31.400 He was in Oberlin at this time? 352 00:16:31.580 --> 00:16:32.020 No, no, no. 353 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:32.860 No, no, no. 354 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:34.700 Okay, where were... 355 00:16:34.700 --> 00:16:35.720 Blau used his work. 356 00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:40.080 Right, a student of, I mean, Blau had teachers come to Oberlin, one of whom... 357 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:41.020 Asmousing his work. 358 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:41.480 Right. 359 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:47.980 And plus there's a lot of other training in mime, in stage combat, in Alexander voice, 360 00:16:48.100 --> 00:16:50.360 which is a system not very much taught in America. 361 00:16:50.400 --> 00:16:52.100 It's taught much more extensively in England. 362 00:16:53.100 --> 00:16:53.840 What is that again? 363 00:16:54.020 --> 00:16:54.760 I don't even know it. 364 00:16:54.800 --> 00:16:56.620 It's basically a physical system for the... 365 00:16:56.620 --> 00:16:56.920 Alexander? 366 00:16:57.280 --> 00:16:58.200 Alexander voice. 367 00:16:58.520 --> 00:16:58.880 Voice? 368 00:16:58.880 --> 00:16:59.760 Spell B-O-I-C? 369 00:16:59.860 --> 00:17:00.580 B-O-I-C. 370 00:17:01.560 --> 00:17:02.480 And it really takes... 371 00:17:03.380 --> 00:17:07.760 What's different about it is that it's like a physical approach to the voice. 372 00:17:07.840 --> 00:17:10.140 It treats the vocal system as a physical organ. 373 00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:13.140 So Alexander voice is simply a name. 374 00:17:14.120 --> 00:17:21.000 Named after a man named Alexander who actually developed a technique called the Alexander 375 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:25.560 Technique, which is a technique of relaxation, which is used a lot in therapy, including 376 00:17:25.560 --> 00:17:26.320 in America. 377 00:17:27.020 --> 00:17:31.140 So it's to help the actors with their vocal production. 378 00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:31.740 379 00:17:31.820 --> 00:17:38.020 It aims at relaxing, as opposed to most voice systems, which tense the actor, it aims at 380 00:17:38.020 --> 00:17:41.680 relaxing the actor, relaxing his whole voice and bringing his voice down. 381 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:41.960 382 00:17:43.020 --> 00:17:44.720 I would like to take that. 383 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:51.880 So anyway, at the drama shelter, Nicole had begun teaching a series of workshops in basically 384 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:53.680 in Grotowski Technique, and this is where we met. 385 00:17:54.420 --> 00:17:57.600 At the time, there was some pressure on the films because they felt that the films were 386 00:17:57.600 --> 00:17:58.640 interfering with the theater. 387 00:17:59.360 --> 00:17:59.580 For what? 388 00:17:59.940 --> 00:18:01.300 That the films were interfering. 389 00:18:01.380 --> 00:18:06.280 The film series was interfering and in some cases was more popular than the live stage 390 00:18:06.280 --> 00:18:06.720 productions. 391 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:14.180 So at that time, Nicole and I had decided to go independently and to start, which was 392 00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:15.860 the beginning of facets in 1975. 393 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:17.480 Now, where did facets then? 394 00:18:17.740 --> 00:18:21.000 In other words, you and Nicole broke away from the drama shelter. 395 00:18:21.120 --> 00:18:23.340 You had been up at the drama shelter showing your films. 396 00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:23.800 Right. 397 00:18:23.800 --> 00:18:24.540 And she had been there teaching. 398 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:25.600 You had left the bookstore. 399 00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:26.420 Right. 400 00:18:27.380 --> 00:18:29.920 You wanted to devote more of your time to that. 401 00:18:30.040 --> 00:18:34.120 Then you and Nicole went to the, was this then to Midtown in the church? 402 00:18:34.120 --> 00:18:38.980 Okay, well, the first place that we had to work with, because first of all, we had no 403 00:18:38.980 --> 00:18:40.280 money, absolutely no money. 404 00:18:40.420 --> 00:18:44.860 And we had, so the first problem was finding a space, which is obviously a space. 405 00:18:45.120 --> 00:18:50.000 So the first space which we had was Resurrection Lutheran Church, which is a 3300 North Seminary. 406 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:51.760 3300 North Seminary. 407 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:52.160 408 00:18:53.040 --> 00:18:53.340 Okay. 409 00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:55.180 And what is a resurrection? 410 00:18:55.320 --> 00:18:56.340 It's a Lutheran church. 411 00:18:56.340 --> 00:18:56.960 Lutheran, yeah. 412 00:18:57.800 --> 00:19:01.480 Where they had a hall that had one time been a basketball gymnasium. 413 00:19:01.540 --> 00:19:02.460 Okay, what year is this? 414 00:19:02.460 --> 00:19:03.480 1975. 415 00:19:03.580 --> 00:19:04.080 75. 416 00:19:04.740 --> 00:19:08.440 And the first, since, we had two directions. 417 00:19:08.520 --> 00:19:14.460 First of all, in theater was to audition and start an ensemble or an acting permanent company. 418 00:19:16.120 --> 00:19:18.760 Their first focus for the first nine months was on training. 419 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:25.000 In the meantime, the films began with public programs and the direction of those programs, 420 00:19:25.080 --> 00:19:27.780 the beginning, was to try to reach ethnic audiences. 421 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:28.760 Okay. 422 00:19:28.760 --> 00:19:34.100 So the first three programs which we did, the first one was the Spanish Film Festival, 423 00:19:34.180 --> 00:19:36.500 which was in June 75. 424 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:42.340 Then we did a very Italian, a very extensive Italian film festival, which we did in three locations. 425 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.700 In Chicago, in Stone Park, and River Grove simultaneously. 426 00:19:48.320 --> 00:19:52.800 And then we did a German film festival after that in October. 427 00:19:52.800 --> 00:20:00.980 Among the early things that we stumbled upon was the Chicago premiere and the Italian Festival of Ossessione 428 00:20:00.980 --> 00:20:04.340 by Visconti, which we brought here. 429 00:20:04.360 --> 00:20:05.720 Which was based on? 430 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:06.860 On Postman, always known twice. 431 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:08.020 Postman, always known twice, with King. 432 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:09.380 Was his name King? 433 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:10.580 Yeah, James King. 434 00:20:10.580 --> 00:20:11.000 James King. 435 00:20:12.600 --> 00:20:19.160 And then by the spring of 76, there was always a problem in using the space, 436 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:25.680 because obviously it was also being used by neighborhood groups, PTA groups, the church was a problem in running opposite religious services. 437 00:20:26.860 --> 00:20:33.900 The pastor had the unfortunate knack for always walking in during the one sex scene in the whole movie. 438 00:20:37.860 --> 00:20:39.040 Terrific knack for it. 439 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:47.020 And so by that time we had started a volunteer group which was running the Facets films. 440 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.460 Were you calling yourself Facets then? 441 00:20:51.940 --> 00:20:51.940 442 00:20:52.500 --> 00:20:55.380 Because you were going to have many facets, obviously. 443 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:55.780 Right. 444 00:20:57.100 --> 00:21:01.300 Did you have then also an idea for a gallery then? 445 00:21:01.300 --> 00:21:01.680 No. 446 00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:02.300 You did not? 447 00:21:02.300 --> 00:21:02.560 No. 448 00:21:03.020 --> 00:21:04.760 It was strictly film and theater. 449 00:21:04.760 --> 00:21:14.360 And at the time, anyway, in early 76, Doug Grandquist, who was a volunteer who was now living in San Francisco, 450 00:21:15.560 --> 00:21:18.360 heard that Grace Lutheran Church was being offered for rent. 451 00:21:19.060 --> 00:21:22.680 And after tracking it down, indeed it was. 452 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:34.100 So in March 76, we moved to Grace Lutheran Church and opened with Jan Kader coming, whom I had known, 453 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:40.020 going back to Kader, sort of known for the last three, four years before that, just independently. 454 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:41.840 And personally I met him in New York. 455 00:21:42.080 --> 00:21:43.760 You met Kader in New York? 456 00:21:44.120 --> 00:21:44.120 457 00:21:44.540 --> 00:21:47.100 Where there was going to be a film festival where he had... 458 00:21:47.100 --> 00:21:50.220 No, I met him just personally as a person. 459 00:21:50.220 --> 00:21:53.640 What other films of Kader that you had seen? 460 00:21:54.200 --> 00:22:00.300 Sharp on Main Street, Adrift, Death is Call Anglican, which we showed at the bookstore for the first time. 461 00:22:00.560 --> 00:22:02.620 I've seen Sharp on Main Street only. 462 00:22:03.860 --> 00:22:10.640 And at the time he had been living in New York, sort of at the inter-making, as my father told me, 463 00:22:10.700 --> 00:22:15.140 but that's for our first meeting, so then he came for the opening of the church on Belden. 464 00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:18.720 You know, the whole tragic story of Belden, right? 465 00:22:19.460 --> 00:22:24.340 Well, yeah, then the neighborhood thought it was going to sink in the mud or something. 466 00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:25.720 Right, exactly, the neighborhood thought it was going to sink. 467 00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:28.100 And what did they do? What kind of nasty things did they do? 468 00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:29.720 Well, they basically reacted... 469 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:33.720 You know, although we always had... 470 00:22:38.040 --> 00:22:42.220 I wouldn't say form, it was really informal public support. I mean, everybody was always very supportive. 471 00:22:43.900 --> 00:22:47.640 We really had no inkling that the neighborhood would be any kind of a problem, 472 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:54.960 but when we moved to the church, first of all, the church had a tragic history of which we were not a part, 473 00:22:55.120 --> 00:22:59.880 I mean, which was as a drop-in center, as a treatment center for runaways, 474 00:23:00.580 --> 00:23:04.580 as a very liberal pastor who did guitar services with a guitar. 475 00:23:05.120 --> 00:23:08.180 So the neighborhood was very angry about this whole business. 476 00:23:08.580 --> 00:23:12.740 And the resolution of the Lutheran church at the time was to try to rent the building, 477 00:23:12.780 --> 00:23:17.040 so at least the building wouldn't go down any further than it had in the year that it had been closed. 478 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:22.640 So after some renovation, we opened there and started running movies literally every day. 479 00:23:28.060 --> 00:23:38.040 The neighborhood really reacted never directly, but rather indirectly by calling an onslaught of building inspectors, sanitation inspectors, everything else. 480 00:23:38.120 --> 00:23:43.300 Did any of the inspectors, if you wanted to off the record, did they ask for bribes or anything like that? 481 00:23:43.460 --> 00:23:43.960 No, never. 482 00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:45.000 Did they get encountered with it? 483 00:23:45.100 --> 00:23:45.380 Never. 484 00:23:45.380 --> 00:23:48.460 Never? I never knew how to offer, you know, that was my problem. 485 00:23:48.600 --> 00:23:51.260 I never knew how, I mean, you always hear it, but I said, how do you do it? 486 00:23:51.260 --> 00:23:55.800 Because I always felt it was my luck if I did it, I'd be the one to get an honest building inspector would say, 487 00:23:55.840 --> 00:23:57.700 aha, here we go, let's call the cops, right? 488 00:23:57.700 --> 00:23:58.180 Of course. 489 00:24:00.340 --> 00:24:07.120 But, you know, ultimately the situation with Belden, with the church was that in the meantime, 490 00:24:07.220 --> 00:24:09.380 there had been a power struggle within the Lutheran church, 491 00:24:09.380 --> 00:24:15.700 although they had made a verbal agreement all the time, all during the time that they would be supportive, 492 00:24:15.860 --> 00:24:20.180 there was no problem in renewing the lease, they were very happy with what was happening with the building. 493 00:24:21.660 --> 00:24:26.340 Under pressure from the neighborhood really, they decided to sell the building to a developer. 494 00:24:26.580 --> 00:24:28.580 That's exactly what happened because now the building is torn down. 495 00:24:28.600 --> 00:24:30.060 That was done then in 1970. 496 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:37.740 That was, we found out about it in 1976 and our lease ran through the end of March 1977, so... 497 00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:39.220 It remained there then that long? 498 00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:40.200 For a year. 499 00:24:40.340 --> 00:24:40.860 For a year. 500 00:24:41.500 --> 00:24:41.500 501 00:24:42.560 --> 00:24:47.820 In the meantime, the theater had opened its first piece, which they had a work which was called Coronet, 502 00:24:49.040 --> 00:24:50.740 based on work by Rilke. 503 00:24:52.860 --> 00:24:53.660 Yeah, that... 504 00:24:53.660 --> 00:24:55.360 That was the United States of Chicago, they opened it. 505 00:24:55.360 --> 00:24:57.640 It's based on Rilke and it's called Coronet. 506 00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:00.060 Coronet, C-O-R-N-E-T, right. 507 00:25:00.100 --> 00:25:01.140 C-O-R-N-E-T, okay. 508 00:25:01.140 --> 00:25:05.640 Right, because the central force of the piece is the lay of the love and death of Coronet Christopher Rilke, 509 00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:08.280 which is, I don't know if it's a book, although it's a lot about the portrait. 510 00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:09.340 Right, and Maria. 511 00:25:10.620 --> 00:25:11.060 Maria. 512 00:25:11.620 --> 00:25:11.960 Maria. 513 00:25:12.340 --> 00:25:12.820 Maria. 514 00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:13.120 Maria Rilke. 515 00:25:13.120 --> 00:25:13.900 Maria Rilke, right. 516 00:25:14.620 --> 00:25:17.920 And we had had, at that time, Makaveyev had come, 517 00:25:18.460 --> 00:25:19.320 Kadar had come, 518 00:25:19.820 --> 00:25:20.500 Tanner had come, 519 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:21.600 Claude Yutra had come, 520 00:25:21.780 --> 00:25:24.840 Louis Ma had come to the church on Belden. 521 00:25:25.040 --> 00:25:25.600 Say that again. 522 00:25:25.820 --> 00:25:26.340 Louis Ma? 523 00:25:26.540 --> 00:25:29.380 Louis Ma, Claude Yutra, 524 00:25:30.520 --> 00:25:31.000 Kadar, 525 00:25:32.100 --> 00:25:32.580 Makaveyev, 526 00:25:33.360 --> 00:25:33.920 Alan Tanner. 527 00:25:34.540 --> 00:25:35.540 Alan Tanner. 528 00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:36.720 Right, had come. 529 00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:38.200 That's great. 530 00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:45.880 And so anyway, when the Lutheran Church decided not to renew Alice in October of 77, 531 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:48.420 we went into a massive building search. 532 00:25:51.460 --> 00:25:53.320 How does it feel, Nicole, what are your feelings about that? 533 00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:55.400 You felt kind of lost after all of this? 534 00:25:55.420 --> 00:25:59.840 Well, it was a very traumatic experience from the very beginning, 535 00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:04.560 because it's like being unjustly accused of something that you didn't do 536 00:26:04.560 --> 00:26:06.900 and never knowing what the complaint was, 537 00:26:06.940 --> 00:26:09.220 because the complaints always... 538 00:26:09.220 --> 00:26:10.820 It was something Kafka-esque. 539 00:26:10.940 --> 00:26:14.940 Exactly, because it was a question of empty worries, really, 540 00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:17.680 about garbage, about parking, about this, about that. 541 00:26:18.060 --> 00:26:18.580 Harassment. 542 00:26:19.300 --> 00:26:21.700 It was really paranoia from the neighborhood. 543 00:26:24.220 --> 00:26:28.940 It also teaches you one instance in terms of Chicago, 544 00:26:28.940 --> 00:26:34.540 the people who complain in the end have much more voice than the people who support you, 545 00:26:37.040 --> 00:26:42.320 because there are avenues for complaint, but there are no avenues for support, 546 00:26:42.540 --> 00:26:44.240 because you have people come up to you and say, 547 00:26:44.280 --> 00:26:47.620 I really think I'll live across the street and I think what's happening to you, 548 00:26:47.820 --> 00:26:49.360 the neighborhood is doing is really terrible, 549 00:26:49.700 --> 00:26:52.500 but what can you tell them to do, to sign a petition? 550 00:26:53.800 --> 00:26:55.160 Unless you have connections. 551 00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:58.180 That's true, but there's very little that you can do. 552 00:26:58.180 --> 00:27:04.540 So we had looked at probably 300 buildings in those five months. 553 00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:13.180 You had developed your organization so that you had support from a number of people at that time, am I correct? 554 00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:16.180 In other words, there was a sort of loyalty. 555 00:27:16.280 --> 00:27:19.100 I think the critics were always very supportive, especially Ebert. 556 00:27:19.100 --> 00:27:20.880 What about the people in the neighborhood themselves? 557 00:27:21.280 --> 00:27:23.460 There were a lot of people in the neighborhood who were very supportive. 558 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:25.960 Going through the same agony you were. 559 00:27:26.580 --> 00:27:29.960 Except that of course it didn't affect them directly and personally, 560 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:34.040 but I mean who were supportive and who were in some way being cheated, 561 00:27:35.080 --> 00:27:38.920 but out of it was a neighborhood resource in some way, 562 00:27:40.140 --> 00:27:45.300 and relatively by very, very few people who had done this whole vendetta business. 563 00:27:49.540 --> 00:27:52.960 So in mid-February of... 564 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:54.120 Okay, I'm going to change this tape.