WEBVTT 1 00:00:17.320 --> 00:00:23.520 I'm speaking with the Reverend Brian George, chairman of the Special Committee on Religion 2 00:00:23.520 --> 00:00:31.400 and Race of the Board of National Missions of the United Presbyterian Church. Reverend George, 3 00:00:31.580 --> 00:00:36.900 it seems that you and your fellow church leaders have been quite active in recent months in the 4 00:00:36.900 --> 00:00:42.440 civil rights movement. In fact, the stated clerk of your own Presbyterian Church was among those 5 00:00:42.440 --> 00:00:49.380 arrested at a recent Baltimore demonstration. To what do you attribute this heightened concern 6 00:00:49.380 --> 00:01:02.140 the church has always been involved in securing the rights of men in society where the church 7 00:01:02.140 --> 00:01:08.740 has been found in the United States. Our own church has been responsible in this field for a 8 00:01:08.740 --> 00:01:15.980 long time in the abolitionist movement and the days of reconstruction where our church was 9 00:01:15.980 --> 00:01:22.080 providing a good part of the backbone of public education for Negroes in the South. Many of our 10 00:01:22.080 --> 00:01:27.140 colleges and parochial schools of that day made all the difference between whether or not a Negro 11 00:01:27.140 --> 00:01:34.260 went to school at all. In the 40s, the United States government still segregated by policy in 12 00:01:34.900 --> 00:01:44.300 agencies like the FHA. They had a manual in which it was laid out that a mortgage could not be 13 00:01:44.500 --> 00:01:51.220 given to Negro and FHA in a white community. This was in the manual. Our church spoke out against 14 00:01:51.220 --> 00:01:57.420 this type of thing and spoke out again in relation to the rights of men in Congress, 15 00:01:57.700 --> 00:02:05.960 in the country, and everywhere. I think that we helped to bring about the pressure in race 16 00:02:05.960 --> 00:02:12.500 relations that we now have. Just why would you say that it's the business of the church to be 17 00:02:12.500 --> 00:02:19.180 involved in the civil rights movement and other social problems anyway? It is the church's business 18 00:02:19.180 --> 00:02:27.720 to be involved in justice. The church exists for the purpose of witnessing to the reconciliation 19 00:02:27.720 --> 00:02:35.100 between men that is made possible in Jesus Christ. But reconciliation is made up of love and justice. 20 00:02:35.100 --> 00:02:42.540 Too frequently in our society, we have heard people say, I love the Negro. They do have 21 00:02:42.540 --> 00:02:48.140 reference to a specific Negro for whom they have a great deal of affection, maybe even esteem. But 22 00:02:48.140 --> 00:02:55.860 there is no justice in that relationship when it segregates out one Negro, an old colored mammy or 23 00:02:55.860 --> 00:03:03.460 something like this, that they love and eliminate in category all the rest of the Negroes. The 24 00:03:03.460 --> 00:03:11.480 church is interested in reconciliation, which is made up in part of justice. Would you describe 25 00:03:11.480 --> 00:03:17.420 some of the ways in which the various churches are now involved in this struggle for racial 26 00:03:17.420 --> 00:03:23.680 equality? Well, I think the most significant thing that the churches are doing now are that 27 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:31.060 they are calling upon that churchmen, laymen and clergymen, to join in demonstrations led by 28 00:03:31.200 --> 00:03:39.580 Negroes, wherever Negroes are fighting for their rights. Good case you cited, the Glen Oak Amusement 29 00:03:39.580 --> 00:03:46.340 Park outside of Baltimore, where our churchmen did not go down to lead the demonstration, but 30 00:03:46.340 --> 00:03:52.180 went down to follow the responsible leadership in that area. This, I think, is the major contribution 31 00:03:52.180 --> 00:03:59.060 that the church can make to the broader civil rights picture right now. Your board of national 32 00:03:59.060 --> 00:04:04.500 commissions, I understand, has recently made some recommendations to the United Presbyterian 33 00:04:04.500 --> 00:04:12.000 Church Commission on Religion and Race on areas in which the church might become involved in the 34 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:17.340 future. Would you care to mention some of these ideas? Our special committee on race of the board 35 00:04:17.340 --> 00:04:25.240 of national missions proposed to our commission and proposes to other Protestant denominations 36 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:31.580 several things. I think one or two can be mentioned. The first is, last year there were probably 37 00:04:31.580 --> 00:04:40.240 about 3,000 units of construction put up by Protestant denominations. The total value of 38 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:47.040 these is in excess of a billion dollars. In most of this construction, there were a few, if any, 39 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:55.300 grows involved in the skilled work, sheet metal, plumbing, electricians, carpenters, 40 00:04:55.380 --> 00:05:03.740 and this kind of thing. We're calling upon our denomination to insist upon the inclusion of a 41 00:05:03.740 --> 00:05:10.340 fair employment practices clause in every contract for building that is given and a demonstration of 42 00:05:10.340 --> 00:05:16.260 good faith by the contractors and subcontractors. This means that there will have to be not only a 43 00:05:16.260 --> 00:05:21.160 contract where you're constructing a new church building that they will hire without regard to 44 00:05:21.160 --> 00:05:26.940 race, but there must also be a demonstration that they have tried to do this, and a demonstration 45 00:05:26.940 --> 00:05:32.300 will obviously mean there'll be some Negroes employed in almost every building that any 46 00:05:32.300 --> 00:05:39.600 Protestant denomination build. Now where there is a billion dollars worth of money going into this 47 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:46.640 thing, this will vastly increase the earning power of the Negro. It will vastly increase 48 00:05:46.640 --> 00:05:52.120 its opportunities for education, for better housing, and a whole lot of other things. I think the 49 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:59.100 church has got this contribution to make and must make it. I think that the church has got to secure 50 00:05:59.100 --> 00:06:05.920 integration of staff and facilities of all denominationally owned or controlled home for 51 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:14.320 aging, orphanages, and hospitals, and I think that the record has not been good in this country 52 00:06:14.320 --> 00:06:21.680 as regards these things. There's been a lot of talk, but very little demonstration that these 53 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:29.280 facilities are truly integrated. I think that the Protestant denominations have got to enter a crash 54 00:06:29.280 --> 00:06:38.340 program of recruitment of Negroes for church vocations. Last year in 1962, the United Presbyterian 55 00:06:38.340 --> 00:06:44.320 Church had only 24 young men studying for the BB degree in all the seminaries in this country 56 00:06:44.320 --> 00:06:50.700 who were Negroes. Well, we simply cannot continue at that level. We've got to get more young men 57 00:06:50.700 --> 00:07:00.480 to church vocations. In the same line of thought as the FEP clauses in contracts, I think that we've 58 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:07.200 got to insist that whether Protestant churches are renting space for offices, that this rental of 59 00:07:07.200 --> 00:07:13.820 space be done only in buildings that are willing to rent space in that building on a non-discriminatory 60 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:22.160 basis. The United States government now does this, and if we do this, this will open Class A building, 61 00:07:22.220 --> 00:07:29.100 office building space in places like the Loop of Chicago, in the downtown area of New York, 62 00:07:29.100 --> 00:07:35.180 and a number of other places to Negroes who have the money who desire to rent office space and 63 00:07:35.700 --> 00:07:41.360 presently cannot rent office space simply because of discrimination. I think that we've got to be at 64 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:51.620 work in areas of intense slum and deprivation. I think we've got to work with people to organize 65 00:07:51.620 --> 00:07:59.580 them to fight slum laws, to fight poor school conditions, and a lot of other things that exist 66 00:07:59.580 --> 00:08:09.680 in these slum situations. I think that it means a great deal of controversy for the church and 67 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:17.160 perhaps a loss of revenue for some parts of the church, but I think that it is something we've got to do. 68 00:08:18.660 --> 00:08:25.240 Dr. Martin Luther King, himself a Protestant clergyman, has described 11 o'clock Sunday 69 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:30.940 morning as the most segregated hour of the week. Do you feel this statement is accurate, 70 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:37.080 and if so, does it not cast a long shadow on the activities which you have just described? 71 00:08:37.880 --> 00:08:44.760 I think this is probably true. I think that the Sunday schools, Sunday church schools in America, 72 00:08:44.980 --> 00:08:50.920 are probably more segregated than the public schools, and I think that it is a responsibility 73 00:08:50.920 --> 00:08:57.300 of the church to apply itself and all of its resources immediately to this problem. I think 74 00:08:57.300 --> 00:09:03.280 that it's got to be attacked in a number of ways. One, by integrating all churches where integration 75 00:09:03.280 --> 00:09:08.700 is possible. I think it's foolishness to talk about integrating a church in the middle of an 76 00:09:08.700 --> 00:09:13.160 Indian reservation where there's nothing but Indians, and I think it's equally foolish to talk 77 00:09:13.160 --> 00:09:19.100 about integrating a small parish church in some remote rural community where there are no Negroes 78 00:09:19.100 --> 00:09:25.060 or Indians or Puerto Ricans or what have you, but I think that we have got to move immediately to 79 00:09:25.060 --> 00:09:30.140 integration of all of our churches, all of our church schools, where this is possible. What would 80 00:09:30.140 --> 00:09:36.760 you say then for Christians in an area where there are no Negroes? Do they have a responsibility? 81 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:42.940 I certainly believe they do have a responsibility. One of the reasons why a community in this country 82 00:09:42.940 --> 00:09:48.460 has no Negroes is because in many cases the residents of that community are fault becoming 83 00:09:48.460 --> 00:09:59.520 of Negroes, either covertly, overtly, by gentleman's agreements, or what have you. But one of the 84 00:09:59.520 --> 00:10:04.800 reasons why it's segregated is that companies who have it as their policy to move their executives 85 00:10:04.800 --> 00:10:11.240 around cannot move Negroes into certain communities because they feel the community consensus would 86 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:17.000 be against it, the company would be hurt. I think that local church people can be leaders here, 87 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:23.500 can develop community consensus where acceptance of Negroes is easily possible. This I don't think 88 00:10:23.500 --> 00:10:28.780 is a long drawn out procedure, but something they can apply themselves to immediately. Then they can 89 00:10:28.780 --> 00:10:35.520 say to these companies, in your rotation practices for your executives, if you want to rotate a 90 00:10:35.520 --> 00:10:40.220 Negro to our community, that is fine with us. We will support you and him. 91 00:10:42.180 --> 00:10:48.120 Reverend George, you must have numerous motives yourself for wanting to work in the civil rights 92 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:55.920 movement and to awaken interest in this movement among the churches. Do you feel that there is any 93 00:10:55.920 --> 00:11:01.620 difference between the motivation of the Christian and the non-Christian, say as they are walking 94 00:11:01.620 --> 00:11:11.120 along in a picket line side by side? Well I must confess that it does not particularly concern me 95 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:20.100 what the motives of the non-Christian are so long as they are consistent with the foundations of our 96 00:11:20.100 --> 00:11:26.940 democracy. I think that I'm more concerned that the motivations of the Christian are based on the 97 00:11:26.940 --> 00:11:33.080 gospel and it seems to me that there's quite sufficient motivation there for any Christian 98 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:40.020 now to be in a picket line seeking racial justice or any Christian to be out demonstrating or 99 00:11:40.940 --> 00:11:45.920 whatever other activity seems called for in the circumstance that she is given. 100 00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:52.740 What do you see as the future of the church's relation to the civil rights movement? 101 00:11:53.640 --> 00:12:02.620 Where do we go from now once the question of jobs and voting are settled? Well when the question 102 00:12:04.060 --> 00:12:11.780 of jobs are settled, you and I probably will not be around having died of old age a long time ago. 103 00:12:12.420 --> 00:12:18.660 The question of voting will probably be settled considerably sooner. I think that the church will 104 00:12:18.660 --> 00:12:26.640 have a responsibility to continue to point out injustice and to seek justice whether it be racial 105 00:12:26.640 --> 00:12:34.840 or class or whatever the circumstance. I hope that the church will be able to restore enough confidence 106 00:12:35.560 --> 00:12:41.940 among Negroes in the church that Negroes will be working as churchmen in our society 107 00:12:41.940 --> 00:12:48.640 to bring about justice for everyone. I have been speaking with the Reverend Bryant George, 108 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:52.140 chairman of the special committee on religion and race 109 00:12:52.140 --> 00:12:56.200 of the board of national missions of the United Presbyterian Church.