WEBVTT

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What about you? You must smell right, I guess.

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Yeah, well it's my cat, probably smelling Elmore.

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How's it looking up here?

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It's a beauty.

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Probably?

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She's a nice little cat, so she's a cat alright.

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Yeah, well.

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Ideas about her.

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Absolutely.

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Somehow that seems to fit, judging from the history that you're telling us.

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Even the cat.

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So they're still, it's kind of like a kid, you know, he's still.

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Sorry.

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Okay.

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Well, we came to Highlandsport because some neighbors of ours, the Millikins,

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lived again in this Indianapolis environment.

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They started coming here because Tom Taggart, who was then a very well-known,

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famous politician that owned French Lake, which produced Pluto water.

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And so he had built a house here, they built a house here,

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and they said to my family, why don't you build a house here?

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So we did, built a house here in 1901.

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So I was here in that house, then I inherited the house, we tore it down,

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rebuilt this house, then when I had a stroke, this was ready for us.

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So that's why we're here.

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Long before the Kennedy's ever heard of them.

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But Otis Skinner came up, he took a cottage one summer,

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and the Taggarts were here, Tom Taggart and the Sinclair, people like that,

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that, you know, they were all people from, locally, from Indianapolis.

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Ruth loves the sea, and apparently you do too.

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Yeah, she's, she's been up here, she comes up usually every summer.

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So, no, she likes it here.

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It's beautiful.

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And her husband doesn't care much for it. Del Faux.

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No, no.

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He doesn't, he's not sea bound.

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Definitely not.

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Ruth talks about how when you were children growing up,

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that your father didn't like idle chit chat,

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and so she used to memorize poems and recite them at breakfast.

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Can you tell us about that?

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Oh, unfortunately I can.

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He didn't like small talk. There was no question about that.

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Could you start with, my father didn't like small talk?

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My father did not like small talk.

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If he wanted to talk about something that he thought important,

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he was delighted to do it.

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Well, in order to get through breakfast, which we all had to attend,

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which began at 7.30 promptly, and you had to be there no matter

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whether you wanted to or not, we had to learn poetry in order to avoid small talk.

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And I never could, I have absolutely no understanding of poetry,

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and 86 years later I still haven't any.

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And it's amazing that Ruth and my father loved it.

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And we learned all kinds of things,

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none of which I have the slightest recollection of.

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I don't even remember the names.

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I just remember something about Daffodil standing on tiptoe.

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That's the total contribution I've learned about poetry.

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I have a wife who's very much interested, who's an author,

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who's very much interested in poetry,

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and I can't for the life of me understand it at all.

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I just think, you know, I look at things that I would say,

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well, if you want to say it, why don't you just say it simply?

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This is the way you say it in science.

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You don't say all jazzed up with various forms.

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You just simply say it as simply as possible.

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In science you're never even allowed to use the term very.

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If it's there, it's there.

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It isn't very that, it's just not there.

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And yet we had to learn this.

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Again, I have no visual, I have no auditory memory.

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So I never could have been an actor,

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I never could have been anything that dealt with listening,

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because there's a hole right straight through my head,

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goes in one ear and comes out the other.

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I can't remember anything.

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I used to have to put on medical shows, you know,

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and if they would tell me, you've got to learn the lines exactly,

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because that's the way the show goes on television,

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I'd say, I can't learn them.

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Just tell me what you want me to say and I'll say it.

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I can think about it and say the thing in the way I think I want to say it,

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but that's not good.

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So you're not a performer?

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Absolutely not.

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I don't seem to be able to memorize anything,

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and yet I've given thousands of speeches.

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I like to talk to an audience.

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I like the feel of when I'm talking to a big audience

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and I like the feeling of talking to people personally,

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but I don't have any format to it.

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It just comes, I look at somebody and I tell them,

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this is the way I see it or something, whatever, I don't know.

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But I enjoy it too.

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So would you say you have a performer's flair, like Ruth?

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Well, I don't know, Ruth, I would suppose that ballet is a very demanding type of thing.

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Well, mine's not.

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I wander out on stage and the only thing I do right is I have a good sense of timing.

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When the clock starts to get about two minutes before the hour,

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somebody says in there, hey, slow up, you've got to get out of this thing quickly.

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So I think of it as something to say and get out.

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So I time it without ever looking at my watch.

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But as a...

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Page, I think there are very few people who would not suggest that giving an important medical speech

105
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was a complicated and difficult thing to do.

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Well, it's different.

107
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Of course it's different.

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I just don't...

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But if you tell me that I have to do this, I guess I get panicky.

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Then my mind closes and I don't remember things.

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People say, well, all you've got to do is say this.

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I said, no, if you let me say it in my way, I can do it, but I can't do it in your way.

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So I would drive a scriptwriter absolutely nuts, I'm sure of that.

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But when I see the exactitude that they demand of the modern ballet dancer,

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oh, gee, it gives me the creeps.

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But they're marvelous.

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It strikes me yet that you, in reading about you, like your sister,

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are a very disciplined person, self-disciplined.

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Would you say that's accurate?

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No, I think that's true, but I...

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The term discipline always frightens me a little bit.

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I don't think of myself as a disciplined person.

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I think of myself as a very orderly person.

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In other words, I am the kind of person, and I think Ruth is too,

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that if I say that I'm going to meet you at 3.03, I'm going to meet you at 3.03, not 3.02 or 3.04.

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And this drives most people crazy.

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And it drives me crazy too when people say, I will call you back,

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and I say, don't call me back at noon because I'll be asleep.

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They say, what?

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I say, yeah, I'll be asleep. I take naps at noon.

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Well, so they call me at 12.05 and I don't answer the phone.

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Then they say, well, I couldn't get you.

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I said, I know you couldn't. I heard the phone ring.

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But don't try it again.

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Well, that's the kind of discipline I think that we both do,

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is that it unfortunately makes us, I guess, a little critical of people.

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I don't...

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Ruth is never openly critical.

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No.

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This whole non-confrontational thing.

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I'm learning to be less critical as I get older

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because I think it's because sometimes I say I really don't care that much any longer.

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I mean, I'm preparing for the end, as it were,

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because I think that as you go through life, you go through these changes in mood

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which determine finally what you do.

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And it's not the principles.

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It's the fact that your mood is changing as you go through life.

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And I think nature prepares you for each one of these mood changes.

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So what I did 30 years ago has no relationship to what I do now.

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Do you think that's true of your sister as well?

151
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No, I don't. And I'm amazed at her, still the vitality that she has,

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which I don't have even though I'm two years younger.

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I think I have a much better memory.

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But on the other hand, that's been my life all the time,

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is I have to have a very disciplined memory because that's my business.

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But Ruth still has the vitality to travel, to be interested in going and seeing things.

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I wouldn't give you five cents, you know, if the Metropolitan came to Hinesport.

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I wouldn't even go if I could avoid it.

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And that's one very fundamental difference,

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but I think Ruth has been used to this travel and it's part of her life, and I haven't.

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Do you think that mentally, when you talked about a change in mood in various stages in your life,

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I assume you're talking about sort of temperament, growth, self-growth, thinking about,

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does it seem to you that Ruth has, how has she changed and grown over the years?

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I think she's changed and grown, well, I put it this way,

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I think she was perhaps more mature than I was in the sense that she had a,

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she was facing a particular world that didn't change too much,

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whereas I was facing a world that was changing constantly.

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And she really didn't have to readjust as much as I did.

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I went, you see, I've sort of oscillated between being a scientist and a physician,

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which is a very unhappy state usually because a lot of people think you aren't either.

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Whereas Ruth had a thing that she went right along systematically,

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and I think she has changed probably less than I have.

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And I think that was because the ballet world slowly changes,

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but she was able to keep up with it.

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So she can still put on Flater Mouse and things like that.

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And I couldn't even, I wouldn't go near an operating room at the present time because I don't know enough.

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That's the difference.

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As children, you and she, what kind of a little girl was she?

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I don't imagine she was seen in that herd.

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She was what?

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I don't imagine she was one of those quiet children who was seen in that herd.

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Oh, no, she was, I should say, she was a very, not a particularly quiet,

183
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I would say not a particularly, anything particularly unusual about her.

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She was a nice girl and had a lot of friends among the things.

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Nobody thought she was odd.

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I didn't think she was odd either.

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I didn't pay much attention to her.

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She had her own friends.

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You see, she was two years older than I was.

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I was the baby in the family, as it were, and you know, where the babies are, they're just a nuisance.

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But she had a lot of friends and was a very friendly person.

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And she always has been.

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They've always entertained a lot.

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They like big affairs and all that, which I don't.

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But as a, I would say you wouldn't have noticed Ruth particularly.

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She knew what she was after, she went after it, but she was very quiet about it.

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So you didn't, she never, when she came back from two years with Pavel, she never hardly mentioned it.

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And it's funny that, you know, usually today you go over and rehash the things.

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How did you like the Cologne Opera House and all that stuff?

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She doesn't do that.

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She just says, well, yeah, I liked it.

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And that was, that's the end of the conversation.

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She seems very much to be the kind of person who focuses only ahead on the next thing.

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Exactly, she is.

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She doesn't worry about critics, she doesn't worry about much of anything.

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And she's not a person given to recreating the old days, I don't think.

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At least if she is, I don't see it.

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We seldom talk about the old days.

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I think I've talked more about them with you than I have with her all our life.

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She doesn't come back and say, oh, look, I did this great thing and whatever she was at.

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I remember very well the difference because when I was working in Germany, she came and visited me in Germany.

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And that was, and we had an absolute circus because she would do everything that I wanted to do

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about going skiing and going to the beer houses and all that sort of stuff.

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Even though I was busy during the daytime, I never saw her during the daytime because I was in the hospital.

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But we had a great time together.

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But it wasn't because we were brother and sister, it was because she was a nice person and I liked her

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and we had a good time together, that was all.

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But we've never talked about it subsequently.

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Which is, she doesn't have a reminiscent mind in that sense.

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I don't, I really honestly don't know whether Ruth ever looks back and thinks,

221
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good heavens, what have I been doing all these years?

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What's happened to the Metropolitan? What's happened to the Adolf Baum Ballet and the Ruth Page Ballet and all this and that and the other?

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I don't know if she does or not, but if she does, she never talks to me about it.

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I don't think she does.

225
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I don't think she does either.

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I think there's a certain amount of strength in that.

227
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Well, I think there is. I think there is. I think she shuts out an awful lot of things that distract people today.

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As I say, I do feel that an awful lot of people are so distracted today that they feel overwhelmed.

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When they hear all this stuff about celebrities and this person and that person, most of them total nonentities.

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You take the Larry King show, you know, these people they bring on there, I think, what in the world is a person like that taking my time?

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But that's expected.

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Now you know what Andy Warhol says, we're all going to be famous for 15 minutes.

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That's about right. That's about right. 15 minutes is a little long, but that's...

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For some people, way too long.

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If you had to think of your strongest memory of Ruth, the one that sort of encapsulates,

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what is the first thing you think of when you think about your sister?

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Well, I think of... I think of, really I suppose, it's her equanimity.

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It's her peace of mind that she sails through all these strange activities with a peace of mind that seems to be unflappable.

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And I never worry about Ruth. I never worry that she's under too much pressure or this, that, and the other,

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because you do, she'll look at you and say, what's wrong? There's nothing wrong.

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It'll be all settled, so don't worry about it. So I don't worry about it.

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I think that's my main characteristic of her.

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She doesn't say, look, I'm worried about this ballet or that ballet or the competition from Nureyev or Boryshnikov or whatever.

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I think she just got her eye fixed on what she wants to do and she goes ahead and does it.

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The trouble with that is, of course, that an awful lot of people want to be famous while they're alive.

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And some of us realize that our fame may be, may be, after we're well dead,

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after they have about a 50-year period of forgetfulness, and then the name comes back.

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And then by that time, you don't care. I think that's Ruth's attitude.

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She never worries about whether she's famous or not.

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An awful lot of people have been told that they aren't anything if they're not famous or not a celebrity.

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But there was nothing in our background.

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You know, Ruth Tarkin and Kenneth Roberts, people like that, they didn't think they were.

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Their fame didn't make any difference to them. And they were famous in those days, but it made no difference to them.

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And they created that atmosphere of peace and quiet and harmony.

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There was never any rowing going on among the married people.

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Divorces were very rare, and people did what they wanted to do, and if they thought it was right, I think Ruth has done the same thing.

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And Tom, fortunately, was the kind of a person who loved that sort of a life, and so he went along with it.

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I never heard Tom say, I don't like your sister because she's doing this or going away all the time, but Tom often went with her.

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Did you like Tom?

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Yeah, I liked him. He was very contentious. He loved to confront you, you know.

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But I knew his tricks. I mean, he was always saying something to try to twitch you. But he had a sharp mind.

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Like what? What would he say?