WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.840 --> 00:00:18.720 This is Andre Del Vaux documentary for Theoflan Productions. 2 00:00:18.880 --> 00:00:21.340 We're Peterson Producing. 3 00:00:22.100 --> 00:00:24.100 It's 10 2485. 4 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:26.960 We're in Andre's studio. 5 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:34.040 This will be zero VU on channel one and two and channel three is reading hour seven zero seven on the timecode 6 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:38.960 and be toned for the completion of this first minute as zero VU on both of the 7 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:46.280 following channels. One is the boom and two is a mix of the lob and the boom on the misfire. 8 00:01:02.380 --> 00:01:12.400 How would you compare Ruth's choreography to and the direction in which she chose to go? 9 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:15.860 Are you familiar with her with anything about her early ballet? 10 00:01:16.160 --> 00:01:16.500 Of course. 11 00:01:18.160 --> 00:01:25.320 What would you say it's so much easier to trace someone else's artistic development than to trace your own? 12 00:01:25.320 --> 00:01:27.860 How would you trace Ruth's artistic development? 13 00:01:32.160 --> 00:01:43.620 I think she begins as very modern because she was young and full of pep. 14 00:01:44.260 --> 00:01:51.620 And so she has this classical training, but she was thinking modern. 15 00:01:52.420 --> 00:02:02.380 And it was a period in America where it was something was in the air about American life. 16 00:02:03.520 --> 00:02:17.460 And she made a small ballet because she has not a big company and she and she danced herself a lot of alone or with some partners. 17 00:02:17.460 --> 00:02:22.420 And she created it was easier, of course, to create things in this way. 18 00:02:23.320 --> 00:02:30.060 She created a lot of image of American life because she feels like that. 19 00:02:30.860 --> 00:02:38.500 She make a ballet on the beach, you see, because it was something appealed to her. 20 00:02:40.460 --> 00:02:41.740 And then? 21 00:02:41.900 --> 00:02:50.940 And then the evolution goes in the way of from the... 22 00:02:51.900 --> 00:02:58.640 But it was for a long time she make ballets about what happened actually. 23 00:02:59.760 --> 00:03:04.140 Like the first Carmen she met was about the civil war in Spain. 24 00:03:04.860 --> 00:03:09.520 And the civil war was still there when she made the ballet. 25 00:03:10.500 --> 00:03:16.980 And so she was related to life and Frankie and Johnny and Billy. 26 00:03:17.220 --> 00:03:26.560 They are all related to life, life in America and life at this period. 27 00:03:27.440 --> 00:03:39.880 And there was a change after the war and she became interested in opera. 28 00:03:41.640 --> 00:03:51.160 And she became interested in Europe and she became interested in music also, 29 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:58.040 who were not music of our period but of other period. 30 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:10.180 And so her ballet become more based on European things, things of the past. 31 00:04:11.040 --> 00:04:18.720 Would you say that she went from being modern to more romantic? 32 00:04:19.020 --> 00:04:20.900 Yes, I would say that. 33 00:04:21.160 --> 00:04:23.100 Why do you think that happened? 34 00:04:25.100 --> 00:04:26.180 How could you? 35 00:04:26.520 --> 00:04:30.180 It's impossible to really analyze that. 36 00:04:30.340 --> 00:04:34.020 I mean it's an evolution and it comes naturally. 37 00:04:37.620 --> 00:04:47.740 To keep a company she has to dance for the opera, to dance in the ballet in the opera. 38 00:04:47.740 --> 00:04:54.840 And I suppose it introduced her to a world of music and stories 39 00:04:54.840 --> 00:04:57.720 who were more European of course. 40 00:04:58.500 --> 00:05:02.840 Although André, she had really started doing at Ravigny, 41 00:05:03.520 --> 00:05:07.980 choreography for the operas at Ravigny in 1926. 42 00:05:09.780 --> 00:05:12.280 Yes, but the influence came after. 43 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:14.020 It was an evolution. 44 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:16.960 It was an evolution. 45 00:05:17.020 --> 00:05:29.540 She decided one day and she decided that she was more interested in this kind of thing 46 00:05:29.540 --> 00:05:30.740 and it was successful. 47 00:05:33.220 --> 00:05:41.160 Do you think that her artistic development, the direction that her choreography took 48 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:44.000 would have been different if she lived in New York? 49 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:46.200 No. 50 00:05:46.200 --> 00:05:47.740 Nobody could say that. 51 00:05:47.900 --> 00:05:54.620 Nobody could say what would happen to Ruth if she had a New York career. 52 00:05:56.020 --> 00:05:57.100 Nobody could say that. 53 00:05:57.100 --> 00:05:57.980 Nobody could say that. 54 00:05:58.020 --> 00:05:58.500 I could. 55 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:00.140 You can't really say that about anybody. 56 00:06:00.700 --> 00:06:01.060 No. 57 00:06:01.280 --> 00:06:02.920 I could say this. 58 00:06:03.760 --> 00:06:05.680 She's a creative artist. 59 00:06:05.740 --> 00:06:11.120 She will have created something but who doesn't know what? 60 00:06:12.140 --> 00:06:14.020 Even her, she can say. 61 00:06:14.700 --> 00:06:14.700 62 00:06:17.060 --> 00:06:26.200 Do you think that your design for theater and opera and ballet especially 63 00:06:26.200 --> 00:06:33.960 would have taken a different turn if you had not started this collaboration as it were with Ruth? 64 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:37.740 It's the same question. 65 00:06:37.980 --> 00:06:38.660 It's the same question. 66 00:06:38.820 --> 00:06:39.420 You don't know. 67 00:06:39.420 --> 00:06:41.140 It's the same question. 68 00:06:43.940 --> 00:06:51.340 What influence do you think Tom Fisher had on Ruth's artistic development? 69 00:06:51.960 --> 00:06:52.980 I don't think he has any. 70 00:06:53.300 --> 00:06:53.600 None? 71 00:06:53.940 --> 00:06:54.340 None. 72 00:06:54.860 --> 00:06:55.500 I don't think. 73 00:06:56.060 --> 00:06:56.860 Noguchi has. 74 00:06:57.520 --> 00:06:58.100 Yes. 75 00:07:00.020 --> 00:07:02.840 What would you say was Noguchi's influence? 76 00:07:03.140 --> 00:07:03.680 Modern. 77 00:07:05.460 --> 00:07:06.000 Kreuzberg. 78 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:14.200 She was already modern before she met Noguchi but he made very modern, very avant-garde things 79 00:07:14.200 --> 00:07:20.340 for her and she used them and it was a very good collaboration. 80 00:07:21.960 --> 00:07:22.940 What would you say? 81 00:07:23.320 --> 00:07:25.060 You knew Tom Fisher of course. 82 00:07:25.060 --> 00:07:25.380 Of course. 83 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:26.040 Yes, very well. 84 00:07:26.280 --> 00:07:27.760 What kind of person was he? 85 00:07:28.260 --> 00:07:31.420 He was a very interesting person. 86 00:07:34.260 --> 00:07:36.720 I think he was very New England. 87 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:37.920 New England? 88 00:07:38.140 --> 00:07:39.540 Yes, I think he was. 89 00:07:39.700 --> 00:07:40.540 In what way? 90 00:07:41.960 --> 00:07:53.680 A combination of a very strong and daring personality and some kind of stiffness. 91 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:00.860 What kind of personality? 92 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:04.460 What kind of things did he like? 93 00:08:05.940 --> 00:08:09.520 He loved society. 94 00:08:11.640 --> 00:08:14.640 He was a very social person. 95 00:08:14.640 --> 00:08:24.580 He liked to go to parties and to dress for the evening and be charming with ladies. 96 00:08:29.260 --> 00:08:33.980 It was a part of his personality to be like that. 97 00:08:35.560 --> 00:08:36.840 What would you say he was a snob? 98 00:08:37.060 --> 00:08:38.160 Not at all. 99 00:08:38.540 --> 00:08:41.000 He was taking that like a play. 100 00:08:43.420 --> 00:08:45.840 He loved the social play. 101 00:08:46.140 --> 00:08:48.400 He liked the social play. 102 00:08:50.680 --> 00:09:01.180 What would you say was his relationship to Ruth in terms of helping her with her career? 103 00:09:01.660 --> 00:09:02.860 It was only material. 104 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:12.220 He tried to help with all the material conditions. 105 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:14.120 The business arrangements? 106 00:09:14.300 --> 00:09:16.120 Business arrangements and things like that. 107 00:09:16.820 --> 00:09:21.600 But he didn't know anything really about dance or art in general. 108 00:09:22.640 --> 00:09:24.260 Did he know that he didn't know anything? 109 00:09:25.760 --> 00:09:30.040 Well, he was not pretentious at all. 110 00:09:30.040 --> 00:09:33.960 He was not interfering at all because he was intelligent. 111 00:09:38.020 --> 00:09:44.280 Sometimes, like everybody, he thought he could understand. 112 00:09:49.160 --> 00:09:55.160 When you would be designing things at Saint-Tropez and you would be sketching 113 00:09:56.200 --> 00:09:59.860 and Tom would be there, would you ever show him the sketches? 114 00:10:00.040 --> 00:10:04.480 Oh, of course he saw them, yes, but he didn't interfere. 115 00:10:05.860 --> 00:10:07.900 He never said, I dislike that. 116 00:10:10.280 --> 00:10:16.820 He said only when it looked too expensive to do or to build. 117 00:10:17.700 --> 00:10:24.380 That he could object to because he has to be reasonable. 118 00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:34.620 Did you feel as though he was a person who had a great deal of respect for his wife's 119 00:10:34.620 --> 00:10:35.860 talents and abilities? 120 00:10:36.940 --> 00:10:36.940 121 00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:40.800 So he wasn't merely indulging her? 122 00:10:41.880 --> 00:10:43.620 Oh no, it was more than that. 123 00:10:45.180 --> 00:10:49.400 It was a real respect? 124 00:10:49.580 --> 00:10:50.060 Oh yes. 125 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:57.600 It strikes me that he knew a great deal more about Ruth's business than Ruth knew about 126 00:10:57.600 --> 00:10:58.460 his law business. 127 00:10:59.760 --> 00:11:01.220 He never discussed any of that. 128 00:11:01.420 --> 00:11:04.720 Oh no, it would have been boring for us. 129 00:11:07.900 --> 00:11:09.100 And you hate being bored? 130 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:13.300 Well, if you could avoid that, it's better. 131 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:15.860 Do you think you hate it more than most people? 132 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:18.060 I don't know. 133 00:11:18.160 --> 00:11:18.800 I don't know. 134 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:21.160 I try not to. 135 00:11:21.340 --> 00:11:22.500 Be bored, yes. 136 00:11:24.520 --> 00:11:25.260 I know that. 137 00:11:26.640 --> 00:11:33.920 What did you think, Andre, when you knew that Tom was ill and you were very helpful 138 00:11:33.920 --> 00:11:36.240 to Ruth during that period? 139 00:11:36.420 --> 00:11:41.140 I mean, I know she came over to Europe and spent time with you and all of that. 140 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:47.460 You knew then that it was just a matter of time until Tom was going to die? 141 00:11:47.460 --> 00:11:48.400 No. 142 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:52.620 I was never sure about that. 143 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:56.440 I mean, she never told me really until the last moment. 144 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:01.980 She never told me really what was this kind of illness. 145 00:12:04.800 --> 00:12:15.620 Did you, what were your feelings and expectations about how Ruth would handle it once you knew 146 00:12:16.180 --> 00:12:17.960 that Tom was going to die? 147 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:26.900 There was a moment, but very short moment, when she seemed completely lost. 148 00:12:27.640 --> 00:12:28.600 But it was very short. 149 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:29.380 She recovered. 150 00:12:32.260 --> 00:12:36.280 We go together to St. Tropez and it was very, very sad. 151 00:12:37.680 --> 00:12:38.300 Of course. 152 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:41.400 But it was very short. 153 00:12:42.040 --> 00:12:46.300 She is a strong lady, you know that. 154 00:12:47.140 --> 00:12:47.900 I do know that. 155 00:12:49.420 --> 00:12:51.220 What are the things you like about her best? 156 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:54.080 The strength, is that a word? 157 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:56.380 Yes, I think I admire that a lot. 158 00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:01.560 I admire all the things I have not, you see, for it's natural. 159 00:13:02.020 --> 00:13:03.240 Oh, come on. 160 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:10.100 She talks about you and says that you are a very, very strong person. 161 00:13:10.900 --> 00:13:13.780 I don't feel like that at all. 162 00:13:14.740 --> 00:13:16.660 Myself, I don't know. 163 00:13:20.060 --> 00:13:24.580 Going back for a minute to finish covering some of the ballets that we haven't talked about. 164 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:28.680 Alice in Wonderland. 165 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:29.440 Yes. 166 00:13:30.100 --> 00:13:31.840 It was a long, long story. 167 00:13:31.940 --> 00:13:36.340 It was the longest story in our collaboration because it begins 168 00:13:37.220 --> 00:13:43.780 at the period just after Carmen. 169 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.620 We begin a very short version of Alice. 170 00:13:50.700 --> 00:13:58.860 Only Alice in Wonderland and only the figures in the book without putting anything 171 00:13:59.860 --> 00:14:02.380 from outside like now. 172 00:14:03.100 --> 00:14:10.540 And this first version was in Jacob's Pillow, was first done. 173 00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:12.680 The costumes, of course, were made in Paris. 174 00:14:15.880 --> 00:14:20.460 Another person who doesn't like my work was 175 00:14:24.580 --> 00:14:26.540 this man had Jacob's Pillow. 176 00:14:26.540 --> 00:14:26.540 177 00:14:27.620 --> 00:14:28.400 Sean, Ted Sean. 178 00:14:28.400 --> 00:14:29.400 Ted Sean. 179 00:14:29.400 --> 00:14:30.140 Ted Sean, yes. 180 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:35.380 It was obvious he dislikes this ballet completely, the spirit of it. 181 00:14:39.900 --> 00:14:49.480 It was the first time and it was very early and I don't remember the date but it was 70 or 71. 182 00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:55.320 Oh, if it was right after Carmen it could have been 72, 73. 183 00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:59.060 Well, maybe more like 72. 184 00:15:01.560 --> 00:15:02.520 And then what happened? 185 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:12.760 What happened is each time it has to be performed we add things to it. 186 00:15:14.260 --> 00:15:23.600 So finally the version was in an art concert in Chicago. 187 00:15:24.560 --> 00:15:30.780 It was in two acts, an overnight version. 188 00:15:33.060 --> 00:15:41.420 And it contains a lot of things that have nothing to do really with the book. 189 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:43.320 190 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:44.140 But are. 191 00:15:44.140 --> 00:15:45.700 The through the looking glass part is. 192 00:15:45.860 --> 00:15:51.140 Yes, it's more fantasy and things are poetic. 193 00:15:51.140 --> 00:15:56.420 Things are added to the figure of ballets. 194 00:15:59.940 --> 00:16:02.020 That ballet strikes me as. 195 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:05.020 I don't think you ever saw it. 196 00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:05.700 On tape. 197 00:16:06.040 --> 00:16:07.460 On tape, oh yes. 198 00:16:07.640 --> 00:16:07.640 199 00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:14.000 It almost feels like a nutcracker. 200 00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:16.560 I mean not that it looks like a nutcracker but do you know what I mean? 201 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:16.920 It's not. 202 00:16:16.920 --> 00:16:19.020 Oh yes, I know exactly what you mean. 203 00:16:19.020 --> 00:16:29.140 And it is supposed to be and I think it should be something like nutcracker but in April or 204 00:16:29.140 --> 00:16:37.220 in a period where children are free and could go to see some dance and some ballet. 205 00:16:39.800 --> 00:16:43.940 Ideally it should have been that. 206 00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:45.020 Mm hmm. 207 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:57.800 But we are not persistent enough and we can't find any help to do that. 208 00:16:57.860 --> 00:17:05.800 So it has never been established as a nutcracker but it should have been. 209 00:17:06.620 --> 00:17:09.000 An Easter, to make it an Easter stand. 210 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:10.640 Yes, Easter or. 211 00:17:11.340 --> 00:17:12.120 Whenever. 212 00:17:12.120 --> 00:17:16.100 When children are free and go to. 213 00:17:19.940 --> 00:17:23.360 What about something called Chain of Fools? 214 00:17:24.040 --> 00:17:25.440 Oh it's a very short thing. 215 00:17:26.100 --> 00:17:27.000 What was it? 216 00:17:27.300 --> 00:17:28.580 Oh it was very amusing. 217 00:17:30.360 --> 00:17:35.400 It's a figure we created in Saint Tropez. 218 00:17:43.540 --> 00:17:56.920 It's a very loose, very vague story about a man who has brief 219 00:18:00.040 --> 00:18:14.720 encounters with three girls and finally he found this puppet, this girl, this figure of a girl. 220 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:21.260 And he preferred the figure of a girl than the real one, to the real one. 221 00:18:21.260 --> 00:18:21.980 Mm hmm. 222 00:18:23.980 --> 00:18:30.020 And so all the girls have to leave and he stays with this figure. 223 00:18:30.380 --> 00:18:33.140 It becomes more and more important. 224 00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:35.920 And finally, Stangl. 225 00:18:37.840 --> 00:18:39.440 It was. 226 00:18:40.780 --> 00:18:41.580 Oh okay.