WEBVTT 1 00:00:28.580 --> 00:00:29.980 One moment, please. 2 00:00:29.980 --> 00:00:37.000 Hour five zero five on the timecode channel three on channel one is zero view and channel two is zero view 3 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:39.660 that will be the mix of the 4 00:00:40.460 --> 00:00:42.760 interviewer and interviewee and 5 00:00:42.760 --> 00:00:47.500 Respectively will be the a flam and Andre Delpho. This is tape number three of 6 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:50.400 1024 85 7 00:00:50.400 --> 00:00:54.180 Red Peterson producing Tom Fetterty video and Byron Smith on audio 8 00:00:54.180 --> 00:00:58.520 This is done to the completion of the first minute and we do have in our noise reduction on 9 00:01:01.040 --> 00:01:02.080 you 10 00:01:07.500 --> 00:01:12.580 She goes to Broadway she want to be a Stein Broadway and 11 00:01:14.620 --> 00:01:19.500 It was a mistake and she broke her leg and 12 00:01:19.940 --> 00:01:21.040 I 13 00:01:25.820 --> 00:01:33.500 Back to we were talking about Carmen the dance theater of Harlem. Yes production of roots Carmen. Yes 14 00:01:33.500 --> 00:01:38.400 And you're Carmen and the resistance that the dancers had 15 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:40.580 to the costumes. Yes 16 00:01:41.400 --> 00:01:42.160 what 17 00:01:43.100 --> 00:01:48.380 What what is the source of that kind of resistance? I can't tell 18 00:01:48.380 --> 00:01:54.140 Really, but I think it was because they were used to to dance without costume 19 00:01:54.140 --> 00:02:00.700 I mean to dancing tights or in teaching and they were dancing Balanchine or modern 20 00:02:02.080 --> 00:02:03.400 abstract balance 21 00:02:05.080 --> 00:02:06.980 Ugly they won't they'll look less attractive 22 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:14.760 I suppose yes something like that. I don't know I can't really can tell but it was not very 23 00:02:14.760 --> 00:02:21.440 There's a story I read somewhere about you walking in and the dancer who was 24 00:02:22.760 --> 00:02:31.660 Dancing the role of Carmen had sort of taken the top that you designed and tossed it away and put in something new 25 00:02:31.660 --> 00:02:37.360 I don't remember that you don't remember. No, no, I remember the wardrobe mistress 26 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:42.760 I've no problem with the dancers. I mean if they were happy or unhappy 27 00:02:42.760 --> 00:02:50.720 Another story, but I have no problem. They wear my costume. I see but the wardrobe mistress is 28 00:02:51.460 --> 00:02:54.080 She said that she will have done better 29 00:02:55.420 --> 00:02:57.640 She would have done better herself. Yes 30 00:02:58.440 --> 00:03:02.400 you see because I made very simple costume and 31 00:03:03.580 --> 00:03:05.480 She thought that would have been 32 00:03:06.640 --> 00:03:07.420 Ruffles 33 00:03:08.440 --> 00:03:09.140 I 34 00:03:09.140 --> 00:03:17.540 Do you encounter that have you encountered that very often in your never never that's why that was an unusual 35 00:03:17.540 --> 00:03:25.740 It was also a very unusual and difficult experience for Ruth I think yes 36 00:03:26.760 --> 00:03:32.480 Do you remember what the history of that was with the with Arthur Mitchell agreeing to? 37 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:35.540 to want to do 38 00:03:35.540 --> 00:03:37.540 Ruth's Carmen Ruth's 39 00:03:38.180 --> 00:03:42.940 The Ruth the page del fo Carmen a new Carmen. I don't remember that 40 00:03:42.940 --> 00:03:49.360 I mean, I don't remember any anything with Ruth. Especially I remember my own 41 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:51.380 Problems, but I don't remember 42 00:03:54.880 --> 00:03:56.760 There were some problems there was 43 00:03:56.760 --> 00:04:03.180 There was a time when you when you went to Spoleto and a Ruth did and I think you went with her to hell and 44 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:05.820 She just sat around almost for weeks 45 00:04:06.820 --> 00:04:12.620 Waiting for a break so that she could work with the dancers to teach them the choreography 46 00:04:13.600 --> 00:04:16.180 That didn't happen. Yes, I remember that 47 00:04:16.180 --> 00:04:21.840 And the whole project seems to seem to just drag itself out 48 00:04:21.840 --> 00:04:27.600 They'd promised to rehearse it and make plans to perform it and then they'd say well, no, we won't perform it 49 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:32.700 Then we'll we'll do it a few months later and then they wouldn't do it then either 50 00:04:32.700 --> 00:04:34.800 And finally 51 00:04:36.020 --> 00:04:38.760 I've read somewhere that you said to Ruth 52 00:04:38.760 --> 00:04:45.220 Ruth I think I think maybe Arthur Mitchell doesn't want to do anybody's ballets, but is on 53 00:04:45.220 --> 00:04:49.880 Do you remember saying no? Yes never made a ballet in his life. So what did you say? 54 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:55.940 That you did finally you just said to her look 55 00:04:59.200 --> 00:05:01.200 He's not a car of at all, okay 56 00:05:02.700 --> 00:05:04.580 I do it maybe 57 00:05:04.580 --> 00:05:05.600 Yes 58 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:08.820 That was more than I thought 59 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:17.820 It's as Ruth was going through this difficult time with the dance theater of her with this common. Yes 60 00:05:17.820 --> 00:05:19.020 and 61 00:05:19.020 --> 00:05:26.540 It would seem that every time she would go to Europe or or she would turn to you 62 00:05:26.540 --> 00:05:29.000 and call you and say 63 00:05:29.640 --> 00:05:36.860 Even if there was no particular work to do necessarily although you were almost always working on some ballet or other 64 00:05:36.860 --> 00:05:44.900 Yes, she just wanted to become of course very good friends. That's for sure. I 65 00:05:44.900 --> 00:05:46.800 Think you're her best friend 66 00:05:47.400 --> 00:05:50.400 What do you think I guess I think yes, I 67 00:05:52.760 --> 00:05:54.480 Don't think she's ever had 68 00:05:55.060 --> 00:05:58.000 anyone in her life that 69 00:05:59.580 --> 00:06:05.300 Creatively she's felt such a strong partnership with she has with you. Oh she has a 70 00:06:06.380 --> 00:06:10.300 very strong partnership with a 71 00:06:10.300 --> 00:06:12.300 Russian designer 72 00:06:13.300 --> 00:06:14.840 Called Remisov 73 00:06:14.840 --> 00:06:19.340 Yes, but I never met him he died and 74 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:25.700 It wasn't nearly as personal Andre maybe not maybe not 75 00:06:26.500 --> 00:06:34.860 What do you think there is about the combination of personalities of you and Ruth that works so well I 76 00:06:34.860 --> 00:06:38.600 Can say really we are very different. I know and 77 00:06:39.540 --> 00:06:43.620 Maybe that's why what is it that you especially like about her? 78 00:06:47.200 --> 00:06:49.180 Oh, I suppose it's 79 00:06:52.830 --> 00:06:53.590 The 80 00:06:53.590 --> 00:06:56.070 Fact that she's so different from me 81 00:06:56.070 --> 00:07:02.110 she's a happy person and she like life and I'm not like that and 82 00:07:05.430 --> 00:07:11.230 Well, not specially I mean of course I don't hate life but 83 00:07:13.270 --> 00:07:15.570 I'm not in 84 00:07:15.570 --> 00:07:18.590 worshiper of of life and 85 00:07:19.470 --> 00:07:23.790 She's and she I suppose she gave me 86 00:07:25.870 --> 00:07:27.870 This kind of 87 00:07:29.270 --> 00:07:31.090 Nothing she has 88 00:07:32.190 --> 00:07:37.790 And suppose I give her something after this kind of 89 00:07:37.790 --> 00:07:42.810 I think that you've been a 90 00:07:42.810 --> 00:07:44.390 Major influence on 91 00:07:46.010 --> 00:07:47.410 Her choreography 92 00:07:49.470 --> 00:07:54.850 Do you think I'm wrong? I don't think that no, I never interfere with choreography 93 00:07:54.850 --> 00:07:57.790 Not much. I mean, oh, I didn't mean it that way 94 00:07:57.790 --> 00:08:03.030 I meant the I meant that once she began working with you and once it became an every summer 95 00:08:06.370 --> 00:08:07.410 Situation in 96 00:08:07.410 --> 00:08:09.270 Santorpe and 97 00:08:09.270 --> 00:08:14.270 Every time that Ruth was just about every time that Ruth was going to do a new ballet 98 00:08:14.270 --> 00:08:17.810 She worked with you on the scenery and cast yes 99 00:08:17.810 --> 00:08:26.710 Once that happened, I mean she writes frequently in her diaries that she discussed the ballet with you and and and she would 100 00:08:27.250 --> 00:08:28.890 she would talk and she 101 00:08:28.890 --> 00:08:35.350 We worked for several weeks and discussed the ballet and she would say, you know day after day after day that you were discussing 102 00:08:35.350 --> 00:08:39.690 Yes, what were you discussing not just the sets and costumes? No 103 00:08:40.690 --> 00:08:46.350 But not a choreography. Okay. Well what then the ideas I mean says 104 00:08:47.270 --> 00:08:55.150 Ideas the theatrical part the theatrical part of the idea. So the emotion for example when you discussed 105 00:08:58.050 --> 00:08:59.290 Chocolate soldier 106 00:09:00.630 --> 00:09:08.830 Yes, what were the discussion what kinds of things did you discuss when you worked on that? Well how to show 107 00:09:12.810 --> 00:09:13.530 The 108 00:09:14.430 --> 00:09:15.150 Dab's 109 00:09:17.290 --> 00:09:22.830 How to make them look clear for the audience you see 110 00:09:25.010 --> 00:09:27.310 So the discussions were 111 00:09:28.310 --> 00:09:35.230 Intellectual yes. Yes about the spirit of the play and how to transpose the play in 112 00:09:37.630 --> 00:09:38.910 Movements and 113 00:09:40.670 --> 00:09:42.950 And keep this the story 114 00:09:43.330 --> 00:09:50.510 Of course now when you would later see a ballet see it with the choreography a ballet of Bruce, yes 115 00:09:50.510 --> 00:09:51.430 Were you surprised? 116 00:09:56.250 --> 00:09:56.890 No 117 00:09:58.370 --> 00:10:02.990 It seems natural for me, I mean this it looked the way 118 00:10:03.650 --> 00:10:05.810 Yes in terms of the dancing 119 00:10:07.290 --> 00:10:13.310 Now did you ever discuss specific dancers for particular roles? Oh 120 00:10:13.310 --> 00:10:13.690 Yes 121 00:10:14.510 --> 00:10:15.110 but 122 00:10:16.690 --> 00:10:23.170 Usually she has the same dancers. You see she has a company of course, and she has the same dancers 123 00:10:23.170 --> 00:10:25.110 so but and and 124 00:10:25.650 --> 00:10:29.010 For a long time and I didn't so see them dancing 125 00:10:29.010 --> 00:10:36.410 I made the costume and made the scenery but they all go to America and I stay in France and then 126 00:10:37.090 --> 00:10:37.690 so 127 00:10:38.250 --> 00:10:42.770 So, but did you feel as though you knew them, you know, or in can and yeah 128 00:10:42.770 --> 00:10:47.650 Yes, I certainly know their measurements 129 00:10:49.430 --> 00:10:56.070 Because the question we are made in Paris and most of the times they can come to to fit 130 00:10:56.070 --> 00:10:59.130 So we have to have the exact 131 00:10:59.130 --> 00:11:02.850 When you finally saw them dance 132 00:11:04.830 --> 00:11:05.950 were they 133 00:11:05.950 --> 00:11:10.870 Did they look about the way that you thought they would or were certainly they were 134 00:11:11.990 --> 00:11:14.630 They were product products of rules 135 00:11:14.630 --> 00:11:23.730 I mean she created her own dances too and and so they they were made to dance of Bruce Ballet and 136 00:11:24.690 --> 00:11:28.670 to integrate in this kind of special theatrical 137 00:11:31.270 --> 00:11:31.950 Choreographic 138 00:11:33.330 --> 00:11:34.010 dance 139 00:11:34.770 --> 00:11:41.050 Did you have to a favorite among Bruce Ballet's among the ballets that you've done with her I 140 00:11:42.930 --> 00:11:46.810 Think Amina Burana finally was one of the best 141 00:11:48.670 --> 00:11:49.550 Because 142 00:11:54.030 --> 00:11:59.350 It has very strong atmosphere 143 00:11:59.350 --> 00:11:59.570 And 144 00:12:05.190 --> 00:12:06.710 What about 145 00:12:06.710 --> 00:12:07.750 Bolero 146 00:12:07.750 --> 00:12:13.230 Bolero was very amusing to do very amusing 147 00:12:13.930 --> 00:12:20.610 Have a little fun with it and it was a scandal which seems so strange 148 00:12:21.650 --> 00:12:27.390 Who came up with the idea of setting it in a brothel me it was my idea 149 00:12:30.330 --> 00:12:35.270 And and the idea of the nighting nighting 150 00:12:36.090 --> 00:12:37.370 the girl knitting 151 00:12:37.990 --> 00:12:39.990 waiting for the customers to come 152 00:12:40.690 --> 00:12:42.110 That was your idea 153 00:12:43.270 --> 00:12:48.970 And they're sitting in rocking they're sitting in chairs. Yes. Yes 154 00:12:48.970 --> 00:12:58.590 chairs on the wall and on the wall and they are sitting with black soles and 155 00:12:58.590 --> 00:13:04.910 Knitting is the sound of the music too. I mean so before the curtain 156 00:13:06.370 --> 00:13:10.810 Is open you heard the sound of the knitting 157 00:13:12.110 --> 00:13:15.670 And you don't know what it is, but when 158 00:13:16.570 --> 00:13:19.570 You see you see a room a big 159 00:13:19.570 --> 00:13:23.690 empty room with girls sit down in 160 00:13:23.690 --> 00:13:26.030 blowing in black and so and 161 00:13:27.450 --> 00:13:28.170 so 162 00:13:28.170 --> 00:13:31.370 Didn't look especially erotic at all 163 00:13:32.410 --> 00:13:36.370 But when the customer came, of course 164 00:13:36.930 --> 00:13:39.230 it changed and 165 00:13:39.230 --> 00:13:41.930 they were supposed to be naked with 166 00:13:42.910 --> 00:13:44.730 stockings and 167 00:13:46.890 --> 00:13:50.310 Of course it was in think about to have them 168 00:13:51.630 --> 00:13:56.710 Now I think you could we could do it and 169 00:13:57.670 --> 00:14:01.990 But just talking we put the stockings on skin 170 00:14:03.230 --> 00:14:05.230 skin color tights 171 00:14:06.150 --> 00:14:08.130 and so 172 00:14:08.130 --> 00:14:12.390 Apparently it was shocking even 173 00:14:14.910 --> 00:14:21.070 Even like that and it was a scandal in Las Vegas imagine 174 00:14:21.150 --> 00:14:22.190 I know 175 00:14:23.910 --> 00:14:26.410 Because they are naked dancers for 176 00:14:27.770 --> 00:14:29.970 50 years and 177 00:14:29.970 --> 00:14:36.810 It was this kind and they had to take the the garters off the off the costumes and put them in tights 178 00:14:36.810 --> 00:14:38.290 So that they wouldn't appear to be 179 00:14:39.270 --> 00:14:40.730 Showing their garters 180 00:14:41.270 --> 00:14:47.250 What was your response to that Andre when you heard about what it happened? Well, I think it was something 181 00:14:47.250 --> 00:14:58.570 It's always nice to could have this if you could have a scandal you see because it seems so impossible now to have one I 182 00:14:58.570 --> 00:15:00.010 Don't do it for that 183 00:15:09.950 --> 00:15:12.010 Yes, well because 184 00:15:12.530 --> 00:15:15.030 Do we have not so much money and 185 00:15:15.030 --> 00:15:18.430 So we buy those very cheap 186 00:15:19.310 --> 00:15:24.450 Ordinary chairs and but I want them black and they were not so we paint them black 187 00:15:24.450 --> 00:15:26.530 all night 188 00:15:29.910 --> 00:15:31.950 I was in in Chicago 189 00:15:31.950 --> 00:15:33.630 for Bolero 190 00:15:34.390 --> 00:15:43.290 usually I didn't came for for the ballot, but this is for Bolero I was there and I I could make a lot of 191 00:15:44.290 --> 00:15:51.550 At some moments the rooms the walls of the room were become transparent and you could see all the men 192 00:15:56.650 --> 00:15:59.470 So when you would okay so you 193 00:16:00.290 --> 00:16:04.670 Most of the summers from 1961 really on 194 00:16:04.670 --> 00:16:11.130 Almost until until she sold the house at cent for pay you and Ruth would spend a part of every summer exactly 195 00:16:11.130 --> 00:16:17.330 Yes, and then you started coming to this country to work with her 196 00:16:18.350 --> 00:16:19.270 by what 197 00:16:20.370 --> 00:16:21.330 1971 198 00:16:22.770 --> 00:16:26.050 Yes, something like that. Yes. Yes 199 00:16:26.050 --> 00:16:29.410 And during the rest of the time you would be 200 00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:30.930 painting 201 00:16:30.930 --> 00:16:37.330 On your own things or working for other ballet companies or what? Oh, yes 202 00:16:38.350 --> 00:16:43.510 Both both yes and the four theater to I made a lot of playing in Paris and 203 00:16:48.270 --> 00:16:55.270 Which do you enjoy most oh I prefer to work for ballets and for plays or opera 204 00:16:57.250 --> 00:17:01.310 It's more poetic you see you have notice I 205 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:04.760 I 206 00:17:04.760 --> 00:17:09.140 Like to to make some plays and but you have 207 00:17:11.140 --> 00:17:15.740 You need doors windows and a lot of 208 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:18.860 seats and 209 00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:19.720 210 00:17:20.340 --> 00:17:26.300 It's not the same kind of and freedom and as I said the bodies are not so 211 00:17:27.140 --> 00:17:27.780 beautiful 212 00:17:28.620 --> 00:17:30.220 Even in the theater 213 00:17:33.020 --> 00:17:39.380 Now what about how has your work in the theater and in ballet 214 00:17:39.380 --> 00:17:43.420 Influenced your painting. Oh, I think a lot 215 00:17:47.020 --> 00:17:49.260 Because my paintings are theatrical 216 00:17:54.800 --> 00:17:59.020 If you had to give yourself 217 00:17:59.020 --> 00:18:00.040 If you had to give yourself 218 00:18:00.040 --> 00:18:03.780 Sort of periods trace your own artistic development 219 00:18:04.820 --> 00:18:11.480 How would you do that? How has your approach to painting and to designing? 220 00:18:12.380 --> 00:18:13.860 changed over the years 221 00:18:15.280 --> 00:18:17.920 It's very difficult for me to 222 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:20.180 See yourself to realize that yes 223 00:18:21.140 --> 00:18:24.040 Do ever now and then look at it. Well when?