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I'm Aaron Tomahere on channel one, Ambience on channel two.

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This is about you never know what you're gonna get and there are some questions still just a few more.

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Okay.

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She remembers so much.

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It's wonderful to have another perspective.

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Is this another perspective?

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Yeah, because our perspective is mainly Ruth.

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And Ruth has, well, talked about herself in that kind of, she says, well, I just did it.

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And I don't remember like this.

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You asked about Tom.

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Tom was very involved in Ruth's career because this is part of their life.

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She brought everything home and they discussed the ballets and he knew every dancer.

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He wrote the contract so he knew whichever dancer.

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I don't know how much weight he threw around.

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He may or may not, that I don't know.

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But the fact that he was there and knew about it and lived the life of all the arts, music, opera, dance,

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that her company was part of his life too.

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Yeah, I think so.

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And he was interested in, as you say, in all different kinds of things.

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He wasn't just only interested in dance and opera, but he was interested in everything, every subject.

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He knew more about dancing after a month living with me than I did.

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Because he had the gift of gab.

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He was a great talker, a wonderful talker.

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Personally, how would you characterize how he felt about Ruth?

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He adored Ruth.

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And he was very protective.

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And if anybody wrote something that he didn't approve of.

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Now he wrote one famous letter, which I wish I had a copy of,

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when the Ford Foundation gave millions of dollars to the School of American Ballet,

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the New York City Ballet, to ballet companies which were satellites of Balletine.

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He wrote this very strong letter saying that this was going to kill a great deal of creativeness in America.

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That it was going to stamp.

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I don't recall what his figure of speech was.

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It was as if Picasso was so great that every art school had to teach everybody to paint like Picasso.

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And that pretty soon everybody would have to dance Balletine ballets.

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And that that would become the criterion.

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And isn't that happening?

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Yes, he was right.

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Now this was 12, 15 years ago.

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And exactly his logic was there.

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When Ruth was involved in the founding of the Chicago Ballet,

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she got up and she made a little speech at a party given by the Marimond's, I think.

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That was a fundraising party.

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You were there.

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Where was the party held?

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In the building of the...

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I'm not sure.

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I know you were there because you wrote about what she said.

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And I may have the location of the party wrong.

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You said the advice that Ruth Pinch had for a Chicago Ballet company was to be adventuresome and be chic.

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Be chic.

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You what?

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Yes, be adventuresome, be chic.

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Do you remember that?

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I don't remember that, do you?

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What's the last word you said?

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Be chic.

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Oh, chic. Oh, yes.

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What do you think she meant by that?

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I don't know.

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Well, the chic is if you're going to just be adventuresome and be, as the hippies were at that time,

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look like a rubbish sale.

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Not only physically, but the dancing.

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But to have a sense of theatricality.

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Yes, I remember that.

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I don't remember that at all.

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Oh, yes, I remember that very clearly now.

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That was a very good phrase to say.

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It's good advice.

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Because that was what her ballets always were.

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They were adventuresome.

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And there has to be a certain kind of chic to it.

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That doesn't mean it's trivial.

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Chic is not necessarily trivial.

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Some of her things had great depth.

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They don't have to.

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Now, the Ravel had great chic.

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It had some depth.

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It was a very strong satire on what was being done, all the psychedelic stuff, although it could still be done today.

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Sure.

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If you could change one thing about your friend Ruth Pate, what would it be?

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About her herself?

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No, what I would say is, would you have her company not to have a certain person there?

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Oh, I don't know who the man is.

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No, I don't know.

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Every person is a wholeness of themselves.

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If you change something, it would no longer be the Ruth Pate that we take with all her charms, her assets.

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If there are some liabilities, that makes the whole thing.

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Like an apple, you just don't want to take out every single bit of green or yellow.

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You want it all bright red?

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No, it makes it an apple because it has all these various elements in it.

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It wouldn't be Ruth Pate.

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If I say I wanted her to be red-haired, because I like red hair, I like her to be taller.

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That has nothing to do with it.

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This is the Ruth that we have accepted.

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The total picture.

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To change the picture is too late.

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If you could change one thing about yourself, Ruth, what would it be?

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Oh, I would be much more aggressive and much nastier.

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Why are you being nasty?

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Oh, I would say what I really think about people.

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I don't. I keep it to myself.

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But I think it would be much better if I just said what I really thought about people.

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I don't do that because I don't like to hurt people's feelings and I'm too nice.

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I'm much too nice.

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I like that.

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I'm always being told that people just walk all over me.

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But I wouldn't feel better if I did the other.

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I feel good because it makes me feel superior.

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Yes, you can steal anything you want.

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Well, you're much too nice to people too, I think.

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I know, but that's what makes me feel good.

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I think it's okay. Step on me if you want to.

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I would hate to be a dance critic.

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I wouldn't be a dance critic for anything on earth.

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I'm really not a dance critic.

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I'm a dance reviewer.

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Criticism implies finding fault.

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You can easily have a sentence or two and find fault.

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I don't believe in constructive criticism.

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That's up to a teacher.

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If I'm going to tell the so-called constructive criticism, write them a letter about it.

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What makes you think you saw this in an hour and a half

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and they didn't think of it in the two years they thought it over before they did it?

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That's a very interesting notion.

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What you're saying is if you're going to make constructive criticism, send them a letter.

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Write them a letter and tell them about it if you thought of something.

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I have thought of ideas like Gerald Arpino of the Joffrey Ballet and his Ballet Jamboree.

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I think the stage looks empty with just the gray cyclorama and only a pas de deux.

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I said, take that front curtain, put it in the back and see how it'll look.

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That's constructive. I didn't write it in the paper.

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I said to him, try it.

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Why couldn't you be a critic, Ruth?

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You certainly know a lot about Ballet.

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Well, I don't like to write about Ballet like that.

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I don't like to get critic. I like to write it more abstractly.

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I like to write, but I don't like to be a critic at all.

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I don't like to criticize things when I write.

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I like to write about all kinds of other things besides dance.

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You read those articles?

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Oh, yes.

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They're very little about dance.

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Very little.

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When you go to see a Ballet, what are you looking for, Ruth?

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Perfection, which you rarely get.

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There are very few Ballet companies where you can go and say, I like everything.

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I think maybe Paul Taylor comes as close.

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I like most of the things that he does.

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And Balanchine, of course.

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But there are very few companies that you can really say they're perfect.

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Something's always wrong, either the dancers or the music or the lights.

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There are so many different elements.

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It isn't like writing where you did all by yourself and that's it.

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You have to have an artist. You have to have music.

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You have to have good dancers. You have to have choreography.

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You have to have a good stage. You have to have a good place to do it.

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You've got to have a good audience.

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So you have to have so much that it can practically never be perfect.

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And you seldom get that.

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There's no perfect theater here for dance, really.

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And the common place is too big.

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And so is the opera company. It's that long, narrow tunnel.

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I hate that opera house for dancing.

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And the little theater is nice there, the civic theater.

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But you can't make any money if you go there.

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So there isn't an ideal theater.

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I wish we had a whole new theater center here.

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I think we need one in Chicago, like they have in New York.

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You have the Metropolitan there.

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And they'll certainly eventually do something with that Beaumont Theater.

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And I think that's what we need here in Chicago.

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We have to work on that.

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They won't get it in my day, but I hope someday they'll get it.

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Has there ever been a performance of one of your ballets that was perfect?

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Well, I liked the way Martins did my Mary Widow very much.

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And I don't think so.

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I've never had a perfect performance, I don't think.

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I think they did Carmina Buran as well as any,

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because that doesn't require virtuosity in one or two people.

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The whole ballet has to be good.

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And I think they did that very well.

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But no, I have never seen a perfect production of my ballet.

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So most of the time, or always, when you leave the theater after it's over.

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Well, I go around and tell the dancers what was wrong.

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I always do that, talk to the people who do the leading parts.

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But that's not being a dance critic, I just go around.

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No, no. But I mean, you never leave with a feeling of tonight.

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Well, sometimes it's funny.

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I remember Marjorie Tosche once gave a marvelous performance.

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I think it was at the Mary Widow, I forget what.

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And her father was there standing in the wings, a great big Indian, you know.

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And I went, oh, weren't you thrilled with Marjorie?

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He went, ugh.

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That was a very Indian reaction.

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Another funny time was dress rehearsal, which we did in the 8th Street Theater with Marjorie.

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And she did a wonderful performance.

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And when it was all over, Kenneth Johnson, who had a great sense of humor,

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shouted across the thing, don't call us, we'll call you.

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There were a few moments of quiet first.

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And then, when you see the work of other choreographers,

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do you ever say to yourself, hmm, I can see my own influence at work there?

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Yes, I do. I think, what's his name, he has, Romeo and Juliet was sort of influenced very much by mine.

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Who else, a particular choreographer?

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I can't think of any right now.

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I think Larry did something very purposely though.

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He took the steps of Frankie and Johnny and some of the score

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and did it as an abstract jazz ballet for 12 dancers.

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That was very clever, suddenly the steps multiplied by 12 became, had a different sort of interest completely.

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Yeah, that was very clever.

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What would you say, or who would you say, has influenced what other choreographers,

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or what has been Ruth's influence as a choreographer in American dance, would you say?

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All through America, as people saw what she did,

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and they went into the Americana thing of hers or in opera ballets.

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Certainly many of them did.

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Some from her own company who went out.

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What was his name, Bud something or other, and his friend?

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Certainly Anna Baker and her husband, Barry Van Kura, who are now, I have a company called the Chattanooga Ballet,

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but they certainly, the years they were with Ruth, have influenced the things they're doing.

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In what aspects would you say, Anne, that Ruth was a leader?

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In terms of carrying things forward?

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Well, she was one of the first to use American themes.

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She was the first to commission, like a score from Copland, she was the first to use black dancers.

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She was the first to use designers such as Noguchi Leonor, Fini, Vykevich, Klave, leader in all those things.

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Also a leader in certain dancers whom she brought in either as guests or who developed inside her company.

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All these things had repercussions on the art as a whole.

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So she was important? Is important?

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Yeah.

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Do you feel important?

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Yeah, sure.

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I haven't appreciated enough, I don't think.

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I really mean that.

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Well, just to show you, I was just in Norman, Oklahoma, but you've never been there.

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Anyway, it was a college dance conference and when people said, Anne Barzol of Chicago, they said,

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what's Ruth Page doing now?

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Wonderful.

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That happens, I was in New York a couple weeks ago in the lobby, what's Ruth Page doing?

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Certainly it happens, or you go to Paris or London or Germany or anywhere, that dance in Chicago is epitomized by Ruth Page.

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Well, Chicago's never let me do anything except the dance.

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Oh yes, I tell them Ruth, she has just taped Alice based on Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland.

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Her Mary Widow is being done in Miami and in Tulsa.

241
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Ruth has written a book, Andy Wentzink is gathering her correspondence.

242
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Ruth's doing a lot.

243
00:16:03.640 --> 00:16:05.040
Flater Mouse is being done in Tulsa.

244
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Oh, they're doing Flater Mouse, that's a fun one.

245
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I'm glad they're revining it because you can't leave them turned on.

246
00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:15.540
That was done by WGN or CBF who did that one.

247
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That was done on television.

248
00:16:16.680 --> 00:16:17.600
Yes, it was.

249
00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:20.580
It was before, there was color, it's black and white, wasn't it?

250
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And there's a man talking in it all the time, but it's better than having nothing.

251
00:16:26.300 --> 00:16:27.740
That was Channel 11, wasn't it?

252
00:16:27.780 --> 00:16:35.660
Well, remember a CBS workshop did of Carmen, the one with Pabbie Klekovic and Kellett.

253
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That's a wonderful, they taped it and I had a 16 millimeter film made of it.

254
00:16:42.660 --> 00:16:44.120
It's wonderfully well done.

255
00:16:44.300 --> 00:16:45.640
First of all, it's a good ballet.

256
00:16:45.640 --> 00:16:54.160
And that was, what's his name, it wasn't Andre Delpho's decor, it was the B.

257
00:16:54.220 --> 00:16:55.280
For who, what ballet?

258
00:16:56.060 --> 00:16:56.760
Oh, Carmen.

259
00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:57.920
Carmen?

260
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Carmen that was done on Diede.

261
00:17:01.300 --> 00:17:02.880
Diede did the third Carmen.

262
00:17:02.900 --> 00:17:03.640
Yes, that was very interesting.

263
00:17:03.660 --> 00:17:05.160
Andre Delpho did the fourth one.

264
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Kellett's was wonderful in that, so was Pabbie.

265
00:17:07.760 --> 00:17:08.280
Yeah, they were.

266
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So were the core people.

267
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It has some wonderful concepts, the death figure, wasn't that?

268
00:17:13.820 --> 00:17:14.220
Yeah.

269
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Bob Bane who died presaging something.

270
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271
00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:20.300
Well.

272
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Is there anything?

273
00:17:22.120 --> 00:17:23.080
Well, there's another thing.

274
00:17:23.340 --> 00:17:28.880
Now, how many great dancers were brought to Chicago because Ruth brought them in?

275
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Everything from Rudolph, Noreyev, Eric, Bruin, Joseph, Amiel, Fleming, Flint, Henning, Kron, Stumpf, Sonia, Arova and on and on and on.

276
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Do you realize these people were seen with the Ruth Page Company because she brought them?

277
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Aside from developing within the city.

278
00:17:49.540 --> 00:17:55.960
That certainly has contributed to the total arts experience of the people here.

279
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Has a dancer, Ruth has a dancer.

280
00:17:58.420 --> 00:18:00.780
Who would you say was Ruth's best partner?

281
00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:02.680
You saw her dance with Kreuzberg.

282
00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:06.400
Bentley Stone, very good also.

283
00:18:06.780 --> 00:18:09.860
But there was a certain thing in Kreuzberg.

284
00:18:10.340 --> 00:18:12.980
See, Bentley was a very, very strong technician.

285
00:18:12.980 --> 00:18:14.740
Really a great one.

286
00:18:15.780 --> 00:18:18.440
But even then, they really work together well.

287
00:18:18.560 --> 00:18:20.620
I'm not going to demean his work.

288
00:18:21.100 --> 00:18:27.160
But something about Kreuzberg being a free spirit and Ruth being a free spirit that seemed to work.

289
00:18:27.600 --> 00:18:28.800
Yes, I love dancing.

290
00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:30.300
Of course, I adored Bentley too.

291
00:18:30.520 --> 00:18:33.700
Bentley was a great partner and a great dancer.

292
00:18:33.940 --> 00:18:36.980
As Anne says, I don't think he was half appreciated here.

293
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:41.060
And Kreuzberg, everybody, he was so famous.

294
00:18:41.060 --> 00:18:45.020
I was so very honored that he wanted to dance with me.

295
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:46.900
And I did love dancing with him.

296
00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:48.000
Who did I dance with after that?

297
00:18:48.580 --> 00:18:49.060
Oh, I did a lot.

298
00:18:49.080 --> 00:18:51.560
Ivan Georgie was the only other one he danced with.

299
00:18:51.840 --> 00:18:51.940
Yes.

300
00:18:51.940 --> 00:18:54.360
Till he lost Georgie and you were the only one he ever danced with.

301
00:18:54.360 --> 00:18:55.060
That's right.

302
00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:59.200
Did you ever see Ruth dance with Adolf Böhm?

303
00:18:59.780 --> 00:19:02.260
Yes, but that I don't remember too well at all.

304
00:19:03.040 --> 00:19:04.800
That's very unclear.

305
00:19:05.760 --> 00:19:08.800
I mean, I read about it like I never saw Ruth Van Fonte.

306
00:19:08.800 --> 00:19:11.080
That wasn't partnered anyway.

307
00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:13.360
He was the dwarf and you were the princess.

308
00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:16.520
But even in the allied arts, I don't remember.

309
00:19:16.760 --> 00:19:20.040
You did dance with Mark Turbefield, but I don't remember that clearly.

310
00:19:21.080 --> 00:19:23.800
He did the Chinese thing that was in Paris.