WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.600 --> 00:00:11.740 Tape number three, Ruth Page, 428, one minute of zero dB. 2 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:17.300 Yeah, Elise. She's... 3 00:00:17.300 --> 00:00:17.540 Ready? 4 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:01.580 We're at that magic moment? 5 00:01:01.720 --> 00:01:04.620 We are rolling. Here we go. Okay. 6 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:09.960 Okay, tell me about the first time you met Ruth Page. 7 00:01:11.960 --> 00:01:15.900 Seems to me as though the first time I met Ruth Page was in Paris. 8 00:01:16.840 --> 00:01:20.840 She came over there and she had a house on the left bank. 9 00:01:21.380 --> 00:01:28.360 And we went over and talked to her. Then she invited my late husband and myself to join her for an American tour. 10 00:01:29.180 --> 00:01:33.400 And you danced with her company as the principal guest artist? 11 00:01:33.660 --> 00:01:34.020 Yes. 12 00:01:34.460 --> 00:01:38.580 And I have here a list of some of the ballets that you danced in. 13 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:46.040 I know that she created the roles of Camille, or you created the roles of Camille and Armand in Ruth's Camille. 14 00:01:46.260 --> 00:01:46.820 That's right. 15 00:01:46.940 --> 00:01:47.920 Can you tell me about that? 16 00:01:48.320 --> 00:01:53.300 Well actually, I remember, right, we went down to Santhrope. She had a house down there. 17 00:01:53.300 --> 00:01:58.960 And we rehearsed there, which was marvelous, because we rehearsed in the morning and then we could go swimming in the afternoon. 18 00:01:59.240 --> 00:02:00.440 And we'd rehearse in the evening. 19 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:05.800 It was a good ballet for me. I really enjoyed working with Ruth on that. 20 00:02:07.180 --> 00:02:13.340 Your sister tells a story about how much Ruth loved to dance. She said she always loved to dance. 21 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:18.920 So there was poor Margie, and she didn't get a chance to rehearse. Can you tell me the story? 22 00:02:18.920 --> 00:02:23.000 Well she did a little bit, Ruth, because my husband was a very good partner. 23 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:32.340 So she would be choreographing, and so I'd start thinking, I was going to go up, and suddenly Ruth jumped up, and she'd be flinging around, and she was just so happy. 24 00:02:32.620 --> 00:02:35.040 She was in seventh heaven. She just loved it. 25 00:02:36.300 --> 00:02:40.080 How was the working relationship, working with her? 26 00:02:40.220 --> 00:02:46.000 I mean, it was, your husband was of course a choreographer as well, and obviously working with that. 27 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:50.940 But you've worked with a number of different choreographers. How would you describe Ruth's choreographic technique? 28 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:58.120 Ruth, as you know, is a charming person. She's a lot of fun. So we had great fun. 29 00:02:59.040 --> 00:03:04.840 She worked fast. And on Camille, I think she really tried to do what was good for me. 30 00:03:05.180 --> 00:03:07.000 And I really think she succeeded. 31 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:18.280 Was she very demanding? Very, or did you feel as though it was a process in which you were working with her? 32 00:03:19.640 --> 00:03:25.660 Both. She knew what she wanted. I mean, definitely. If Ruth wanted a step, you had to do that step. That was it, you know. 33 00:03:26.920 --> 00:03:33.480 That was her step. She wanted it. But at the same time, I think, expression-wise, she let you be yourself. 34 00:03:35.620 --> 00:03:38.940 You also danced, I know, in The Merry Widow. Yes, I did. 35 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:41.080 And in Revenge. That's right. 36 00:03:42.500 --> 00:03:52.000 And possibly some others. I don't believe so. I think those were, I did one tour, we did Camille, I believe, and my husband's ballet, Edil. 37 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:53.940 And I danced in both of those. 38 00:03:55.320 --> 00:04:02.720 What was it like dancing Widow and Revenge and on the road on tour? 39 00:04:02.720 --> 00:04:17.300 Very tiring. Exhausting. Because we went by bus. So it was on the bus in the morning and then get off, do your class and get on stage. It was tiring. It was a hard tour. 40 00:04:18.320 --> 00:04:20.040 And you did that for a couple of years, I know. 41 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:24.280 I did one year with Mary Widow and the next year we did Camille. 42 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:33.760 And you were involved then with the company, living with the people in the company every day, with Ruth every day? 43 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:44.220 Ruth sometimes came on tour. Not always. There was one ballet that she spoke, I believe, at the beginning. I'm not sure which one it was. 44 00:04:45.060 --> 00:04:46.920 There is one, and I'm not sure which one it is either. 45 00:04:46.940 --> 00:04:47.240 Susanna and the Barber. 46 00:04:47.400 --> 00:04:48.640 Susanna and the Barber, thank you. 47 00:04:48.640 --> 00:04:54.000 I'm not sure. But then she came on tour and did that. She wasn't always on tour. She was lucky. 48 00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:08.540 Your husband, George Skabeen, was, I guess you could say, the first guest choreographer of Ruth's company. There was the first ballet you mentioned, I'm going to pronounce it wrong. 49 00:05:09.140 --> 00:05:09.440 Edil. 50 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:12.420 And Annabelle Lee, how did you do that? 51 00:05:12.940 --> 00:05:15.040 Oh yes. That's right. 52 00:05:16.400 --> 00:05:25.660 Did that develop? Why do you think she chose George as a person? There are obviously lots of people that she could have said, well, why don't you do something for my company? 53 00:05:26.700 --> 00:05:33.200 My husband and she were very great friends. Ruth was a lot of fun. She liked him and he liked her. 54 00:05:33.520 --> 00:05:41.160 So I think she asked him if he would like to do, he'd already done the ballets before, so it was just doing them with her company on tour. 55 00:05:41.900 --> 00:05:56.360 Now how is it when you're a principal guest artist and you're in with a company and you are the stars that have been brought in? What is the relationship like? Is ballet sort of a democracy? Are you together? 56 00:05:56.840 --> 00:06:05.920 Well, it's never easy at the beginning, but I think when they realize you're on the bus every day and you're working as hard, not much harder than they are, then you become friends. 57 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:14.560 I mean, I think all dancers relate to other people's work. They know how hard it is, so they can relate to somebody else's. 58 00:06:15.140 --> 00:06:26.520 I have often said that I think that the dancers work hardest of all the arts. The hardest thing is to be a dancer, harder than to be an opera singer, the more just sheer hard work. 59 00:06:26.520 --> 00:06:37.520 I presume it would be. I'd love to be able to sing, I can't, but dancing is very hard and it's very rewarding, but if you don't love it, then just forget about it. 60 00:06:40.180 --> 00:06:51.480 Ruth, I know that you and George were guests at Ruth and Tom's at Saint Tropez. Can you describe what life was like there and what it was like to be with Ruth and Tom? 61 00:06:52.280 --> 00:07:05.220 Well, it was great. Like I say, we worked. We worked very hard, but then we also had our moments of leisure. We used to go out at night and Ruth would go have her coffee and ice cream at four o'clock. 62 00:07:06.220 --> 00:07:13.060 It was a pleasant time. It was fun. Tom used to read to Ruth at night. 63 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:16.860 Read to Ruth at night? What kinds of things did he read? 64 00:07:16.860 --> 00:07:20.200 I'm not sure. We never stayed, but I know he did read to her. 65 00:07:21.220 --> 00:07:24.080 What kind of man was Tom Fisher? I've never met him. 66 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:33.060 I did not know him as well as I knew Ruth. I mean, the only time we met him was in Saint Tropez, in Paris actually. 67 00:07:34.420 --> 00:07:38.200 We have to stop for the... 68 00:07:47.700 --> 00:07:49.220 You were talking about Tom Fisher. 69 00:07:50.580 --> 00:08:00.980 Oh, but I was saying that I did not know Tom as well as I knew Ruth, obviously. But I can say that Tom really loved Ruth. 70 00:08:02.780 --> 00:08:03.800 Why do you say that? 71 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:07.820 Well, he just did. I mean, he loved her very much. I mean, it was, you know, a real love. 72 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:13.240 I mean, he was fascinated by her because she was an amusing person. 73 00:08:14.500 --> 00:08:21.060 There are a lot is sort of made of Ruth's personal style and personal flair. 74 00:08:22.220 --> 00:08:31.140 Can you give us a picture of sort of the personality and charm of Ruth as you remember her in the days when you were working so closely together? 75 00:08:32.860 --> 00:08:37.760 Well, she's very vibrant. She's very exciting. She's gamine, as you would call it. 76 00:08:38.300 --> 00:08:44.920 A haircut. She was always alive. Ruth was always on. She was never dull. 77 00:08:45.740 --> 00:08:51.020 So I think this is probably what Tom loved about her. It was the excitement of being around Ruth. You never knew what she was going to do or say. 78 00:08:51.800 --> 00:08:53.340 So it was always something unexpected. 79 00:08:54.740 --> 00:08:59.560 And her attitudes about dance or approach to her work, very committed? 80 00:08:59.560 --> 00:09:03.700 I think so. I mean, obviously, I mean, she's done this all her life. 81 00:09:03.820 --> 00:09:09.240 I mean, she's built a school. She had this theater. Ruth loved dancing. 82 00:09:10.460 --> 00:09:21.500 Do you ever give any thought to where this drive to just stay at it and do it and do it and do it comes from inside Ruth, inside you? 83 00:09:21.500 --> 00:09:30.500 Why? It's there. I mean, if you love dancing, it's there. I mean, you have to do it in a way. There's nothing else you can do. 84 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:33.900 Do you ever see Ruth perform? 85 00:09:35.500 --> 00:09:38.020 I don't believe so. No, I don't think so. 86 00:09:38.700 --> 00:09:40.620 So you don't remember what she was like as a dancer? 87 00:09:40.660 --> 00:09:48.860 No. She might have been... I'm not sure about this. She might have danced in one of the ballets, but I was not in it. 88 00:09:48.860 --> 00:09:52.200 By that time, it would have been 60 years old. 89 00:09:52.340 --> 00:09:52.840 Yeah, it was not. 90 00:09:55.420 --> 00:10:07.300 I know that a number of the people in the company, Larry Long and Dolores Lepinski, have wonderful memories of working with you and George 91 00:10:07.300 --> 00:10:14.500 and say that you had a great deal of fun and that there was a real warmth that developed over the years. 92 00:10:14.500 --> 00:10:23.060 Did you work after those two or three, whatever it was, years when you were principal guest artist with the company? 93 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:34.260 No. The only time that we worked again is that my husband invited Ruth down to Dallas to do Mary Widow. So she came down. 94 00:10:34.260 --> 00:10:37.220 Kenneth Johnson came first. Sorry. 95 00:10:45.220 --> 00:10:46.500 You were talking about... 96 00:10:46.500 --> 00:10:50.860 Kenneth Johnson came first and then Ruth came down for the final rehearsals and performance. 97 00:10:51.880 --> 00:10:58.560 What is it you think about Mary Widow that's made it so successful as a ballet? It's one of Ruth's most successful works, certainly. 98 00:10:58.560 --> 00:11:08.840 The costumes are beautiful first. Music is great. It's a fun ballet. Everybody can relate to it. It's not too intellectual. 99 00:11:09.220 --> 00:11:18.040 Mary Widow can't be. It's really a fun ballet and the audience loves it. You have waltzes, you have can-cans. There's a story. 100 00:11:19.940 --> 00:11:21.500 The costumes and scenery are beautiful. 101 00:11:22.560 --> 00:11:26.400 It was fun for you to do because of the lavishness of it in the world. 102 00:11:26.400 --> 00:11:37.820 I wouldn't say that was one of my best roles, Mary Widow, but I think I was better in Camille. It's fun to do. Like any artist, some things are better for you, some are less. That's all. 103 00:11:38.060 --> 00:11:40.800 What was there about Camille that especially you said seemed like... 104 00:11:40.800 --> 00:11:45.220 I liked the drama of it. I liked Camille, but it could be better. 105 00:11:47.980 --> 00:11:57.380 There's a story about, I think it's in Camille, that Ken Johnson tells about Ruth. I guess it's in Camille where Camille doesn't die in her lover's arms. 106 00:11:57.720 --> 00:12:02.680 She sort of comes back to life and dances around. Have I got that straight? I think so. No? 107 00:12:05.240 --> 00:12:06.220 I died anyway. 108 00:12:07.040 --> 00:12:08.020 You died in his arms. 109 00:12:08.280 --> 00:12:10.240 I don't know about anybody else. 110 00:12:12.260 --> 00:12:14.240 I was definitely dead. 111 00:12:19.420 --> 00:12:27.940 Knowing what you do now about... When you met Ruth, had you heard anything about her work? Had you heard anything about any of her early work? 112 00:12:28.400 --> 00:12:32.540 No, I knew that she had done... What ballet did she do for ballet? 113 00:12:33.040 --> 00:12:33.720 Frankie and Johnny. 114 00:12:33.740 --> 00:12:35.580 Frankie and Johnny. I knew she'd done that. 115 00:12:35.980 --> 00:12:36.620 And Billy Sunday. 116 00:12:36.620 --> 00:12:41.900 Billy Sunday, I never saw her. Frankie and Johnny, I saw definitely. That's the only thing I knew about her at that time. 117 00:12:42.340 --> 00:12:49.040 When you saw Frankie and Johnny, which must have been sometime in the 50s or the late 40s, were you shocked by it? I mean at the time. 118 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:50.640 No, no. 119 00:12:53.560 --> 00:13:04.400 It created a real scandal in Paris after World War II, but I think it was more because the Parisians wanted to make a fuss in retaliation for something that had happened in New York. 120 00:13:04.400 --> 00:13:10.500 Then I thought that the ballet was especially shocking. Although it was nearly banned in Boston. 121 00:13:11.140 --> 00:13:16.120 Oh really? Very few things can shock a Parisian audience. 122 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:20.340 I know, but there you have it. I know. 123 00:13:22.020 --> 00:13:27.320 Ruth herself is especially proud of the fact that she's one of the people to shock Paris. 124 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:28.400 That's hard. 125 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:42.960 When you think in terms of Ruth's contributions or the things that Ruth has done in terms of adding things to dance in America, how would you describe those contributions? What do you think she's done? 126 00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:51.800 I've lived so many years in Europe that I'm not that up on what she did in America. 127 00:13:51.800 --> 00:13:58.280 I know more of what she did in Europe and the few tours that I was with her in America, but we were always on tour. 128 00:13:58.620 --> 00:14:05.660 I never was around her in Chicago or New York, so I really couldn't tell you what contributions were there. 129 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:19.140 One of the things that they talk about when you say about on tour about being a contribution of Ruth's is Anna Kisselgoth talks about how Ruth really, her company, toured second longest. 130 00:14:19.220 --> 00:14:27.020 The Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo was the only company that toured, had a longer length of tour. I mean, you know how long those tours were. 131 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:27.820 Yeah, they were. 132 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:40.780 You just went everywhere. You brought dance to Leadville, Colorado and Beeville, Texas and places where people had never seen dance before, except for you the year before. 133 00:14:41.180 --> 00:14:47.240 Did you feel as you were doing that as though you were some sort of dance pioneer bringing dance to a new audience? What was that like? 134 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:57.880 No, I didn't think of it as that. I just thought that the audience enjoyed it. I never really realized it. Maybe they'd never seen dance before. I just assumed they had. 135 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:05.180 And it was no different for you from dancing before an audience in New York or Europe or someplace else? 136 00:15:05.540 --> 00:15:14.020 No, an audience is always the same. Some are more, see more ballet, but an audience for an artist is an audience. 137 00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:19.820 That's interesting. So you don't really do anything different or feel different? 138 00:15:19.820 --> 00:15:24.340 I hope not. One maybe does, but I don't think one should. 139 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:41.560 Larry Long says about Ruth that she always approached her work as though she was choreographing for Paris or New York and she thought that it played just fine in Leadville, Colorado. That Leadville deserved her best. 140 00:15:41.560 --> 00:15:43.440 And I guess you're saying the same thing. 141 00:15:45.180 --> 00:15:47.040 Here comes another train. 142 00:16:01.260 --> 00:16:10.740 When you were in Chicago, now I get unsure of the years here, did you then, you then went to Dallas, right? Shortly shortly after you had been? 143 00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:18.620 No, we stayed, I stayed in Paris quite a few more years. I joined Harkness for a few years and then I went to Dallas. 144 00:16:19.860 --> 00:16:26.200 So you would see Ruth and Tom possibly fairly after you stopped? 145 00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:32.580 Oh yes, we'd see them in Paris or we'd see them in Santhorpe, someplace we always saw them. 146 00:16:34.940 --> 00:16:37.280 Socially they were nice to be with? 147 00:16:37.280 --> 00:16:40.120 Oh yes, oh yeah. They were a lot of fun. 148 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:58.760 Much is made out of the fact that Tom was really such a supporter of Ruth's work and so supportive and helpful and devoted to her in terms of the date, well just the organization of her company, not the choreography. 149 00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:00.400 I don't know. 150 00:17:00.660 --> 00:17:01.780 You don't know anything about that? 151 00:17:01.780 --> 00:17:06.000 I just know that he enjoyed being an artist, Tom. For him it was amusing. 152 00:17:07.420 --> 00:17:11.160 He enjoyed that part of Ruth's life, the whole atmosphere. 153 00:17:13.320 --> 00:17:20.000 Can you talk about, people talk about the clothes that she has always worn and that sort of style and flair? 154 00:17:20.380 --> 00:17:30.780 Ruth liked to shock people. I remember supposedly she came to Dallas in pantaloons and gave a speech and the woman of Dallas always remember her. 155 00:17:30.780 --> 00:17:34.120 It's because she had those barbarous pantaloons on. 156 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:38.180 I know what that is, that's that Eve's in the room. 157 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:38.880 Probably. 158 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:43.180 A little suit with a sort of a Peter Pan collar. It is outrageous. We have a picture of it. 159 00:17:43.180 --> 00:17:43.560 Oh really? 160 00:17:44.080 --> 00:17:47.160 Yes. So she came to Dallas and the ladies still talk about it. 161 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:53.920 Yes, it's a women's meeting. She gave a speech and they still talk about it. Oh we remember Ruth very well. 162 00:17:56.800 --> 00:17:58.600 Laurie, is there anything that? 163 00:17:59.620 --> 00:18:13.060 Did you ever remember seeing Ruth in a down mood or ever going through struggles or anything, maybe a reflective time or just any memories of Ruth? 164 00:18:14.800 --> 00:18:23.260 Well the only time that I've seen Ruth a little down is when we were on the tour in the bus and it can get depressing, it can get a little tiring. 165 00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:31.640 And even at her age she still tried to be up but it's very difficult. She could become a little tired. 166 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:38.320 Tell me about what it's like, the grind. You get up in the morning and then what? I mean go through it. 167 00:18:38.340 --> 00:18:47.060 You have breakfast and you get on the bus and then you go to another town and then you unpack, you do your performance and you go to bed. 168 00:18:47.060 --> 00:18:54.180 The next morning the same thing. It can be very routine but you still have your performances. 169 00:18:55.220 --> 00:19:02.420 I was just thinking that's got to be the whole reason for doing it because everything else around it seems as though it would be awfully. 170 00:19:02.420 --> 00:19:03.100 It can be true. 171 00:19:05.560 --> 00:19:09.520 Must have been nice for you to at least be touring with George. Did you always do that? 172 00:19:09.700 --> 00:19:13.360 Yes, except when he hurt himself and then I toured by myself. 173 00:19:14.740 --> 00:19:15.820 We need to change tapes.