WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.100 --> 00:00:09.440 This is tape number six, it's three July 85. 2 00:00:10.220 --> 00:00:12.840 We're at the Ruth Bates School of Ballet in Chicago. 3 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:17.620 Interviewing Pat Primoz-Valerina for Ruth Bates Company for some time. 4 00:00:18.140 --> 00:00:20.380 For Theathlon Productions, Theathlon is interviewing. 5 00:00:21.180 --> 00:00:23.040 We're outside a bus stop obviously. 6 00:00:24.820 --> 00:00:25.980 It's four-nineteen in the afternoon. 7 00:00:25.980 --> 00:00:29.220 This will be the book tone until the first minute is up. 8 00:00:29.500 --> 00:00:32.280 On channel one will be zero and on channel three, 9 00:00:32.480 --> 00:00:34.180 the time code on channel two is la. 10 00:01:03.680 --> 00:01:08.340 I just asked you whether or not your husband is involved in the world of ballet at all. 11 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:09.980 Yes, he is and he also... 12 00:01:13.940 --> 00:01:15.880 Start out by saying my husband. 13 00:01:16.740 --> 00:01:22.120 Yes, my husband is also a dancer. 14 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:29.700 He's still a dancer, he still does Nutcracker, but he's also teaching in the school now. 15 00:01:30.260 --> 00:01:33.940 I met him in Pittsburgh after Ms. Page's company closed. 16 00:01:34.440 --> 00:01:38.220 He had been in New York and had gotten the job in Pittsburgh. 17 00:01:38.900 --> 00:01:43.460 Kenneth, my partner and I had gone to Pittsburgh with Ruth to set her Carmen. 18 00:01:43.720 --> 00:01:47.080 We stayed there since her company had folded. 19 00:01:47.080 --> 00:01:51.320 We were in Pittsburgh for four or five years. 20 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:54.940 That's where I met my husband and we started dancing together. 21 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:58.500 I think the reason I started dancing is I thought if something happens to Ken, 22 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:00.980 who can I dance with in this company? 23 00:02:01.100 --> 00:02:04.100 I picked out this tall, strong, good partner. 24 00:02:06.260 --> 00:02:08.640 We ended up getting married a couple of years later. 25 00:02:10.760 --> 00:02:13.000 Tell me why you like Juliet so much. 26 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:15.900 You said two roles, Juliet and Carmen. 27 00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:19.220 Juliet was completely the opposite of Carmen. 28 00:02:20.580 --> 00:02:24.500 It was something that was set for me. 29 00:02:24.900 --> 00:02:25.920 It was one of the few. 30 00:02:26.040 --> 00:02:29.140 The only other ballet that Ruth... 31 00:02:29.140 --> 00:02:33.100 I should say the only other ballet after Juliet than a few other things 32 00:02:33.100 --> 00:02:36.380 were set with the idea of my dancing them in mind. 33 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:41.760 The only one before that was concertina per trois, 34 00:02:41.760 --> 00:02:46.020 which was originally supposed to be done with two girls and one boy. 35 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:51.380 Because there weren't any girls around but me, 36 00:02:51.480 --> 00:02:53.860 it ended up being two boys and one girl. 37 00:02:54.180 --> 00:02:56.880 My partner was upset because it was supposed to be his ballet 38 00:02:56.880 --> 00:02:58.260 and it ended up being mine. 39 00:02:59.980 --> 00:03:06.800 But Juliet, I got to work on it from the beginning and I could use my own ideas. 40 00:03:06.860 --> 00:03:08.620 I read the book a few times. 41 00:03:08.620 --> 00:03:16.100 I saw the movie and I kind of decided which way I wanted to go with it. 42 00:03:16.460 --> 00:03:23.580 I liked the movie a lot, but I didn't feel that they were such children. 43 00:03:24.920 --> 00:03:26.920 So we did it a little more. 44 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:30.720 I mean, even though you're young, they were more grown up in those days. 45 00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:32.720 They're not like our children. 46 00:03:32.760 --> 00:03:35.420 We're kind of pampered and we stay young longer. 47 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:40.080 I got to work with my partner too. 48 00:03:40.500 --> 00:03:43.380 Instead of just telling me what I should do and how I should feel, 49 00:03:43.420 --> 00:03:48.040 we talked about the feeling between us, how we felt this should go 50 00:03:48.040 --> 00:03:51.480 and how that should go, and especially the death scene. 51 00:03:51.700 --> 00:03:56.440 That was a big thing because we took artistic license on the death scene. 52 00:03:57.500 --> 00:03:58.560 Have you ever seen hers? 53 00:03:58.800 --> 00:03:59.440 No, not yet. 54 00:03:59.440 --> 00:03:59.840 Right. 55 00:04:01.880 --> 00:04:07.100 She sees him again at the end while he's still alive and then he dies in her arms. 56 00:04:07.720 --> 00:04:10.360 Well, we did this because we felt in the ballet, 57 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:13.840 being just the two of us without having all the extra people around, 58 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:20.680 emotionally and story-wise, it was much more dramatic at the end. 59 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:27.340 And he didn't feel that way at first, but after discussing it and Ruth discussing it, 60 00:04:27.840 --> 00:04:35.500 it kind of came out that way and I think ended up being very dramatic at the end, 61 00:04:35.940 --> 00:04:39.080 considering it was just a small, hers isn't one of those gigantic, 62 00:04:39.180 --> 00:04:45.000 it's just the small 20-minute version, getting that whole story into 20 minutes was kind of hard. 63 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:47.820 I also liked it because I was the only girl. 64 00:04:48.540 --> 00:04:50.080 Everybody else was boys. 65 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:52.020 I was the only girl in the ballet. 66 00:04:53.140 --> 00:04:55.060 So I got to do all the pretty stuff. 67 00:04:55.060 --> 00:04:57.540 That rarely happens that you're the only girl. 68 00:04:57.820 --> 00:05:00.280 Oh, it sure does. It's usually the other way around. 69 00:05:00.880 --> 00:05:06.780 There's millions of girls and one boy, but I got to be the only girl and had the most beautiful costumes. 70 00:05:07.520 --> 00:05:13.740 Andre Delpho designed them for us and that was another funny story. 71 00:05:14.300 --> 00:05:20.800 Miss Page and I had a lot of fights over costumes because she would have them designed 72 00:05:21.440 --> 00:05:26.860 and I would look at them and say, this is after I was doing leet parts for her, 73 00:05:27.540 --> 00:05:29.200 that they'd look terrible on me. 74 00:05:30.220 --> 00:05:33.040 And the same thing happened with her Romeo and Juliet. 75 00:05:33.280 --> 00:05:38.380 She brought the sketches in and she had told Mr. Delpho that it was going to be modern, 76 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:40.740 but it wasn't modern. 77 00:05:40.820 --> 00:05:48.160 We had really done an old-fashioned version as far as the dancing went. 78 00:05:48.840 --> 00:05:53.260 And he had sketched very modern costumes. 79 00:05:53.700 --> 00:05:59.040 So I was going to wear high white boots and a slip-tight thing. 80 00:06:00.140 --> 00:06:04.180 And I said, oh no, why don't you do Juliet in that? 81 00:06:05.020 --> 00:06:06.500 It's not going to fit. 82 00:06:07.260 --> 00:06:10.300 And as usual, she got very angry with me and said I was difficult. 83 00:06:10.380 --> 00:06:11.800 I never liked the costumes. 84 00:06:12.340 --> 00:06:16.760 And I asked Mr. Delpho to please come and see the ballet. 85 00:06:17.280 --> 00:06:21.340 And he came and saw the ballet and he said, oh, I know what you mean. 86 00:06:21.380 --> 00:06:24.000 And he designed the most gorgeous costumes. 87 00:06:24.640 --> 00:06:27.180 I felt so beautiful in those costumes. 88 00:06:27.180 --> 00:06:31.200 And I think when you feel beautiful, you dance beautiful. 89 00:06:32.060 --> 00:06:38.160 If you're in something that makes you feel ugly, if you're not supposed to be ugly in the part, 90 00:06:39.320 --> 00:06:42.800 if you're uncomfortable, you can't be the person that you're trying to portray. 91 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:47.240 And he made me feel like Juliet in his costumes, so it made it easier to dance the role. 92 00:06:48.420 --> 00:06:49.860 Costumes have always been important to Ruth. 93 00:06:50.880 --> 00:06:55.120 Very. And most of them are absolutely gorgeous. 94 00:06:55.680 --> 00:07:01.580 But once in a while, they, you know, things just kind of didn't work out. 95 00:07:03.300 --> 00:07:06.660 Tell me about Pat. Do you remember when Ruth stopped dancing? 96 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:11.900 Yes, I do. 97 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:15.640 She didn't dance that much with our company. 98 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:22.560 When I was in the company, she danced before I joined the company with Mr. Stone a lot. 99 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:24.780 But I didn't get to see that much. 100 00:07:24.840 --> 00:07:28.440 The only thing I ever saw her do was her Susanna and the barber. 101 00:07:28.960 --> 00:07:31.440 And it was a lot of fun to have her in. 102 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:38.960 Well, one reason we were very happy, because we were all, that's when we were still very young and bad children, 103 00:07:39.500 --> 00:07:43.000 we were very glad she was dancing because then she couldn't see us fooling around. 104 00:07:44.080 --> 00:07:49.540 She was out there in front of us working very hard, and if we made boo-boos back there, she didn't see it. 105 00:07:49.620 --> 00:07:53.980 You know, she couldn't come back and holler at us for dragging the bench with when it got caught on our costumes 106 00:07:53.980 --> 00:07:56.040 because she was too busy dancing. 107 00:07:56.360 --> 00:07:58.780 So that was one great thing about it. 108 00:07:58.780 --> 00:08:05.200 But she was very, I couldn't believe how strong her feet were. 109 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:07.660 I was always in shock. 110 00:08:07.940 --> 00:08:16.060 She's the only lady, and I think she must have been in her 60s at the time, that could jump that high off the floor and land on both toes. 111 00:08:17.200 --> 00:08:21.740 I couldn't believe it. I wouldn't have tried it. My toenails would have all turned black. 112 00:08:21.740 --> 00:08:27.900 I said she had the strongest feet with the biggest arches I've ever seen, and it's not fair. 113 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:31.860 She didn't need them anymore. 114 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:37.220 But dancing with her, I must say, it was fun. 115 00:08:38.280 --> 00:08:42.440 How was it for you when you had to stop dancing? 116 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:53.960 It's, well, what happened to me was I figured it was something that had to happen. 117 00:08:54.020 --> 00:09:01.780 I tore a muscle in my fanny, dancing in a theater that was too cold. 118 00:09:01.880 --> 00:09:05.960 That's the only thing I can figure out because I was warmed up. 119 00:09:06.220 --> 00:09:08.980 I mean, I took as good care of myself as you possibly could. 120 00:09:08.980 --> 00:09:11.400 I tried not to get injured. 121 00:09:12.060 --> 00:09:18.840 I was doing Miss Pages' Carmina Burana in Pittsburgh, and in the middle of it, I felt something very weird. 122 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:21.040 All of a sudden, I felt like my leg was going to fall off. 123 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:27.160 I had to hold it so that it, I had torn a muscle, and I thought, God must be telling me something. 124 00:09:29.040 --> 00:09:34.920 If things like this are going to happen for no reason, my body must be saying, hey, this is it. 125 00:09:34.920 --> 00:09:41.160 I thought, I'm going to stop now before you cripple yourself or before you start dancing badly and people are going to go get her out of here. 126 00:09:42.400 --> 00:09:52.560 So it was kind of hard, but I thought I'd dance while I was still looking really good, and nobody's going to see me start going down. 127 00:09:53.600 --> 00:10:01.780 And actually, it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be because I had started teaching already, and I love it. 128 00:10:01.780 --> 00:10:11.580 I love working with the children because I feel that I can give them things that I had to take a long time learning, and maybe they can get it a little bit faster. 129 00:10:12.780 --> 00:10:18.800 And I'm not going to say I could dance through them, but maybe I can instill in them the love I felt for it. 130 00:10:19.620 --> 00:10:25.020 And it didn't hurt so much. It's not like it was cut off and I wasn't a part of it anymore. 131 00:10:25.580 --> 00:10:28.220 I still, I can see my kids dance in Nutcracker. 132 00:10:28.220 --> 00:10:34.760 It makes me feel so great. You know, I started out with the little kids and suddenly, wow, some of my kids are angels now. 133 00:10:34.780 --> 00:10:43.640 Maybe next year they'll be in snow. It's the most greatest feeling in the world to see my kids coming up. I just love it. 134 00:10:45.540 --> 00:10:51.660 Tell me about your relationship to Ruth. You started to say before that she doesn't know how much you love her. 135 00:10:52.760 --> 00:11:05.840 Well, she, I don't think she can understand. I mean, we did have, I always felt we had a good rapport as far as working together. 136 00:11:08.760 --> 00:11:15.120 But I don't know, maybe some of Balanchine's ballerinas felt that way about him. I don't know. 137 00:11:15.220 --> 00:11:22.420 I think he was a little more what you would say tough than she was. 138 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:32.860 It's kind of hard to explain. It's like a mother that you adore that's there and you can't really say, 139 00:11:32.860 --> 00:11:37.900 now my mother I can hold her in my arms and say I love you, but she was different. 140 00:11:38.420 --> 00:11:48.020 She was like that somebody that's up here and you love them from afar and you feel that they like you in return, but it's different. 141 00:11:48.800 --> 00:11:57.480 And I don't think she'll ever realize because we did fight so much. She'd throw things at me and say you don't like the costumes, you never appreciate what I, 142 00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:06.760 but it's like a mother with a bad child. And sometimes she was glad I did what I did because it came out better in the end. 143 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:14.160 But I think that's why I loved her because she kind of give it, which is like a mother without really being a mother. 144 00:12:14.580 --> 00:12:21.840 She kind of nurtured me and gave me a chance to do things that I might not have been able to do otherwise. 145 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:29.840 I really felt like one of her ballerinas, like she created me. There wasn't much outside influence. 146 00:12:31.660 --> 00:12:41.620 And yet you feel she doesn't know. I don't think so because I think she kind of, it's like you have to do with your students. 147 00:12:42.020 --> 00:12:48.120 You can't let them know that you really feel for them because then they'll kind of take advantage of you. 148 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:56.440 You have to treat them all alike and not let them know that I like you a little bit more because you're out there working, you know, and this one's going, oh, 149 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:05.320 you have to treat them all the same. But you feel for that one that's given their all and you kind of try to push them along. 150 00:13:05.400 --> 00:13:12.340 But you don't really let them feel that, that you feel more for them than you do for the other kids. 151 00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:22.460 And I think that's the way she was with us. So we really don't know how she felt about us except the way she treated us, which was pretty much alike. 152 00:13:23.780 --> 00:13:27.260 You know, do you think that she knows that you love her? 153 00:13:29.040 --> 00:13:36.340 I don't know, because she's a very kind of. I can't say she's a distant person. 154 00:13:37.800 --> 00:13:46.840 But I don't think she really expected it. I think if she felt you didn't like her, she could feel it. 155 00:13:47.260 --> 00:13:54.500 If she felt that you really hated her, like some people, I just can't stand doing this kind of stuff and she's a terrible woman and I just hate her. 156 00:13:54.980 --> 00:14:02.920 That she could feel, but I don't think she can. I may be wrong, but I don't think she can really feel the other side because Orin said the same thing. 157 00:14:02.920 --> 00:14:07.920 I think he doesn't feel that she really knows how he feels about her. 158 00:14:22.900 --> 00:14:29.560 That, well, it would have been different. Maybe I would have made it and then maybe again I wouldn't have. 159 00:14:29.560 --> 00:14:42.460 I had a chance to leave once and didn't because I felt I wasn't ready to tackle other things and I was very happy doing what I was doing. 160 00:14:42.680 --> 00:14:46.260 And that was the story ballets that I enjoyed so much. 161 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:57.880 And dancing in her company wasn't like dancing in ballet theater. Of course, you know, people will say, okay, it wasn't the biggest company. 162 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:11.920 But we were like a family. There wasn't, mostly because she tried to keep her dancers from Chicago and the Midwest, there wasn't what they call the bitchiness, the backbiting. 163 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:20.440 The kids, like when we came into the company, if you were having trouble, they wouldn't go, they'd try to help you. 164 00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:26.920 And if somebody new came in and they were having trouble, you'd say, come on, I'll show you what this is so you don't, you know, you don't get hollered at or you don't get embarrassed. 165 00:15:26.920 --> 00:15:33.900 You don't have it in those other companies. I mean, everybody's trying to hold their own so they're not going to help you because you might get ahead of them. 166 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:41.880 And our company was like a nice little Midwestern company where everybody was helped everybody else. 167 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:46.420 And she was bringing this company up. Well, she did from the bottom. 168 00:15:46.420 --> 00:15:53.520 And then the people that stayed with her as a nucleus went up in the company and became soloists and lead dancers. 169 00:15:54.180 --> 00:16:02.940 And I guess I was afraid to leave that. And maybe if I had, who knows? Maybe I would have danced. Maybe I wouldn't. 170 00:16:03.180 --> 00:16:06.420 I don't know if anyone would have had the confidence in me she had. 171 00:16:08.140 --> 00:16:12.760 Do you think that Ruth is unappreciated or not sufficiently appreciated as a choreographer? 172 00:16:14.060 --> 00:16:16.520 Yes, I've always felt that way. 173 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:19.740 I have to start by saying I've always felt that Ruth was unappreciated. 174 00:16:19.740 --> 00:16:27.460 I've always felt that Ruth was unappreciated because I feel she was ahead of her time. 175 00:16:28.660 --> 00:16:34.580 She did things before other people. People are doing now what she did years ago and everybody was going, oh, that's horrible. 176 00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:42.540 That's terrible stuff. I think if she could have been state supported like some of the other companies, 177 00:16:42.540 --> 00:16:47.400 I think she could have done marvelous full length ballets. 178 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:55.620 And she's probably going to be like every other great artist. They'll appreciate her after she's dead and it's too bad. 179 00:16:56.060 --> 00:17:03.640 But a lot of people are starting now. She's finally starting to get the recognition I thought she should have gotten a long time ago. 180 00:17:03.660 --> 00:17:11.700 She's getting awards finally. People are saying, wow, Frankie and Johnny was good. You can still do it. 181 00:17:11.700 --> 00:17:17.100 It's a good theater piece. And same with a lot of the other ballets. 182 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:21.240 Maybe some of them with a little bit of changing could be done again today. 183 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:28.240 Mary Widow, I think it could be a classic like Swan Lake. People say dated. I don't say dated. 184 00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:32.640 You can still bring the operetta around. Nobody's going to go dated, dated. It's good. 185 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:40.160 Her Mary Widow, I think, could go into any company and be done in any repertoire. 186 00:17:42.740 --> 00:17:49.720 I think she is finally starting to get recognized. But it's been a long time and she deserved a lot more. 187 00:17:52.280 --> 00:17:57.640 I asked you before and I'm going to ask you again to talk about the time after the ballet company closed 188 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:04.220 when you went out with those Lecter Series Club invitation to the dance and you went to high schools, two schools a day. 189 00:18:04.260 --> 00:18:08.180 Can you tell the story of that starting from the beginning? 190 00:18:11.660 --> 00:18:17.460 Well, that isn't the most joyous part of dancing. I will say that. 191 00:18:17.700 --> 00:18:19.420 Just describe it. What were they like? 192 00:18:20.500 --> 00:18:24.880 The most horrible part of it is getting up real early in the morning and having to dance. 193 00:18:25.220 --> 00:18:30.760 I can't remember if it was eight or nine o'clock. It seemed like six to me. I'm not a morning person. 194 00:18:31.360 --> 00:18:35.520 Trying to get yourself warmed up to dance at that time of the morning. 195 00:18:37.320 --> 00:18:41.840 Sometimes it's fun because if you're appreciated, it's fun. 196 00:18:42.520 --> 00:18:51.580 If you get an audience that starts not understanding, it can be very funny to say the least. 197 00:18:52.180 --> 00:18:56.240 I mean, they can get you laughing. They'll say funny things because they've never seen like, 198 00:18:56.460 --> 00:18:58.680 who's the guy in the white milk shorts or something? 199 00:19:00.100 --> 00:19:05.960 But Miss Paige, I must say, when we did those lectures, if somebody had come out with something funny, 200 00:19:06.820 --> 00:19:11.400 she was right on top of it. She'd come out and explain things and not put them down, 201 00:19:11.580 --> 00:19:17.780 but say things in such a way that they would learn and yet not feel embarrassed or stupid. 202 00:19:18.860 --> 00:19:25.580 She put things in a very nice way. I can't say I enjoyed those as much as touring, 203 00:19:25.580 --> 00:19:34.340 but at least it was a chance to dance. Also, I think dancing in the schools is good for the people. 204 00:19:35.780 --> 00:19:41.520 It's not always fun for the dancers, but it's bringing ballet. 205 00:19:43.760 --> 00:19:51.680 It's really easier for actors and singers to do that because dancing is so physical, 206 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:55.220 and you've got to go through the whole warm-up process. Not that singers don't, 207 00:19:55.520 --> 00:19:59.400 but you need the space to warm up and you need something to hold on to. 208 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:01.680 I mean, if they've got a nice little room, they can do it. 209 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:07.200 But with us, and you've got the different floors, and you're putting rosin on the floor 210 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:14.080 and coke on the floor and stuff so that you can stand up. It was a whole different thing. 211 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:21.080 It would have been more fun if it was at the beginning of your career rather than at the end of your career. 212 00:20:21.080 --> 00:20:25.540 I think if you were really a young dancer, it wouldn't have bothered you so much. 213 00:20:25.740 --> 00:20:31.260 But once you've done the tours and done the lead roles and the full ballets, 214 00:20:31.900 --> 00:20:38.360 then to have to do that, it was more like, well, we're trying to bring ballet to the school, 215 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:42.800 so let's do our best and show them what it's all about. 216 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:46.620 But it wasn't as much fun for us, I think, as it was for them.