WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.860 --> 00:00:11.740 Number four, it's 3 July 85, we're with Ruth Page Foundation doing an interview. 2 00:00:12.380 --> 00:00:18.180 The Applawn Productions will be audio on channel one with tone, Ed Zero DB and on channel two 3 00:00:18.180 --> 00:00:23.260 will be the Lavalier microphone and on channel three is timecode, this will be bars and tone 4 00:00:23.260 --> 00:00:24.340 until the first minute. 5 00:01:02.360 --> 00:01:08.100 Ruth was a famous hostess and 1100 Lake Shore Drive was a wonderful place to have parties, 6 00:01:08.240 --> 00:01:13.000 well her new place is no slouch either but 1100 had marvelous memories. 7 00:01:13.300 --> 00:01:20.120 Well first of all I'm going to mention Tom Fisher, her husband, who I thought was a wonderful 8 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:27.080 man, he was so bright, so intelligent, so sharp and he was such a complimentary host 9 00:01:27.080 --> 00:01:33.180 to her hostess and we had parties there with lots of the big opera stars and lots of the 10 00:01:33.180 --> 00:01:37.000 big ballet stars and the food was always wonderful and she always played wonderful music and 11 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:41.680 we danced and those parties ended up going well into the night because nobody ever wanted 12 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:43.800 to leave, they just were great. 13 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:49.520 She had a wonderful maid at the time named Felicia who always, I love Mexican food and 14 00:01:49.520 --> 00:01:56.920 she always cooked this wonderful enchiladas and tacos and things and they were just super. 15 00:01:58.080 --> 00:02:00.260 She always had one at the end of the season. 16 00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:06.440 She had one, she usually had one right around Christmas time and she had one at the end 17 00:02:06.440 --> 00:02:13.400 of the season and they were, we always got to dress up and look our best and it was such 18 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:19.080 a beautiful elegant apartment, beautifully decorated and although we had a lot of fun 19 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:25.240 it was just dancers having a good time with her and Tom, that's how it always worked out. 20 00:02:25.440 --> 00:02:28.740 What special memories or anecdotes do you have that you remember about Tom? 21 00:02:30.420 --> 00:02:38.780 One of my favorite times when I think I really got to know Tom and appreciate him and his 22 00:02:39.640 --> 00:02:44.760 point of genius really was when I went to Spoleto, she had invited me to come, not Spoleto, 23 00:02:44.760 --> 00:02:50.140 to San Tropez, she had a marvelous little house there and she invited me to come and 24 00:02:50.140 --> 00:02:56.220 so I did and very hard to get there, not an easy place to get to at all and they met me 25 00:02:56.220 --> 00:03:03.380 and Tom was just so charming and wonderful and he asked me if I, I asked him about getting 26 00:03:03.380 --> 00:03:06.860 a haircut, I'd heard that the French haircuts were so marvelous so he said I have a wonderful 27 00:03:06.860 --> 00:03:08.280 barber shop I'll take you to. 28 00:03:09.040 --> 00:03:11.580 So we dropped Ruth off and she said well as long as you're getting your hair done I'll 29 00:03:11.580 --> 00:03:12.260 get my hair done. 30 00:03:12.260 --> 00:03:16.720 So I went with Tom and Ruth went to the beauty parlor and Tom introduced me to the barber 31 00:03:16.720 --> 00:03:24.080 and all this and we came back out, after we finished we came out and met Ruth and Tom 32 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:30.220 said well Ruth I have just scandalized us and Ruth said Tom what do you mean? 33 00:03:30.660 --> 00:03:33.760 And he said they all think that Orin is my boyfriend. 34 00:03:39.260 --> 00:03:45.460 We just laughed, we had the best time there, went to some wonderful beaches, had beautiful 35 00:03:45.460 --> 00:03:46.780 dinners up in the mountains. 36 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:48.980 What was life like there at San Tropez? 37 00:03:49.020 --> 00:03:55.460 Oh very laid back, very laid back and it was a class of people that I had never met up 38 00:03:55.460 --> 00:04:01.400 until that time, I guess I must have been about 25 or so when I went to San Tropez and 39 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:11.460 I met Baronesses and Marchionesses and whatever they all titles were and Ruth had this wonderful 40 00:04:11.460 --> 00:04:16.700 studio there and she was wanting to work and the atmosphere was not very conducive to working 41 00:04:17.140 --> 00:04:18.780 and really I wanted to go to the beach. 42 00:04:19.340 --> 00:04:20.960 She had a lot of trouble getting me to work. 43 00:04:21.820 --> 00:04:26.980 I thought I was on vacation and she was going no no no no and I think that's when she was 44 00:04:26.980 --> 00:04:32.360 thinking about starting Carmina, Barana was when we were there and she wanted to start 45 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:39.960 working some of that stuff out, some of those steps and I kept saying well Ruth really now 46 00:04:39.960 --> 00:04:46.780 you know if we do a short class and a short rehearsal and get it over with I said then 47 00:04:46.780 --> 00:04:51.640 I'll play with you on this stuff a little bit and she was oh damn you darling you never 48 00:04:51.640 --> 00:04:52.580 want to work. 49 00:04:54.420 --> 00:04:56.800 But we did, we got a lot of it started over there. 50 00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:58.320 You did a class every day up there? 51 00:04:58.780 --> 00:05:02.380 Yeah, well as long as she could drag me into the studio we did. 52 00:05:03.440 --> 00:05:04.840 I didn't want to, I wanted to play. 53 00:05:05.440 --> 00:05:06.680 The beaches were beautiful. 54 00:05:07.940 --> 00:05:09.120 It was a fun place. 55 00:05:10.580 --> 00:05:14.540 After Tom's death, how did Ruth change? 56 00:05:20.380 --> 00:05:27.720 When Tom was dying, Ruth was setting Romeo and Juliet and Tom had that horrible disease, 57 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:29.280 the same one that Stavros. 58 00:05:29.780 --> 00:05:30.340 ALS. 59 00:05:30.580 --> 00:05:40.480 Yeah, ALS and he got weak and he lost control of his muscles and I'll never forget she had 60 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:48.740 She took a little poetic license with Romeo and the ending when after Romeo had taken 61 00:05:48.740 --> 00:05:57.180 the poison and Juliet came back to life, Romeo was not dead so there was a final moment between 62 00:05:57.180 --> 00:06:03.380 them and when she gave the directions to I guess it was Patty that she was sitting on, 63 00:06:03.500 --> 00:06:09.920 Patty Klukovitch, she said now at this point you must realize I'm not going to be able 64 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:17.640 to say this without crying, you must realize that the man that you always depended on and 65 00:06:17.640 --> 00:06:28.440 held on to for support can't do it anymore and every time I think about that and there 66 00:06:28.440 --> 00:06:35.120 she was losing this man that had meant so much to her, it was very sad. 67 00:06:37.180 --> 00:06:40.120 But she picked up and carried on. 68 00:06:41.500 --> 00:06:47.720 She was stronger than some of us were about it, she knew it was coming and she steeled 69 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:54.480 herself for it and she just somehow accepted it and when he finally died and she just said 70 00:06:54.480 --> 00:07:02.280 I am now a whale and that's how I shall have to learn to live and she's a strong lady. 71 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:09.100 The business side of things which Tom had always handled, Ruth took it over. 72 00:07:12.580 --> 00:07:19.160 Everything that Tom had done for her I don't think she was too aware of what all was involved 73 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:25.920 and the business side of it we didn't even see that much of and luckily I guess she got 74 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:32.300 some very good lawyers to help her through that stuff and I think a lot of that was, 75 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:34.620 how much longer did we tour after Tom's death? 76 00:07:35.060 --> 00:07:35.900 Just a couple of years. 77 00:07:35.940 --> 00:07:42.520 Just a couple more years, I think it got too hard for Ruth without him because the complications 78 00:07:42.520 --> 00:07:49.780 of touring, it really is, I mean imagine taking care of 40, however many we were, 45 people, 79 00:07:49.780 --> 00:07:56.700 49 people with musicians and everything and getting the hotels and all that stuff is very 80 00:07:56.700 --> 00:08:01.820 complicated, moving a company around is just not easy and I think that just got to be really 81 00:08:01.820 --> 00:08:04.980 too much for her without him to take care of a lot of those details. 82 00:08:06.540 --> 00:08:13.860 I know that you're close to Ruth Warren but nonetheless, we know you're honest and sensitive, 83 00:08:15.700 --> 00:08:24.980 What do you think of Ruth's place in the pantheon of American choreographers? 84 00:08:25.080 --> 00:08:26.980 Do you think it would have been different if she'd been working in New York? 85 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:50.500 Ruth as a choreographer, as an American choreographer, had some marvelously unique concepts and I 86 00:08:50.500 --> 00:09:02.300 think we were good enough dancers to show her ideas, to make them visual. 87 00:09:05.060 --> 00:09:18.520 I wonder if we hadn't been so individualistic, if we hadn't had so many ideas of our own, 88 00:09:18.520 --> 00:09:25.160 if she wouldn't have gotten more of her ideas across, because sometimes we did stymie her. 89 00:09:25.860 --> 00:09:30.320 There were times when we just said, oh that looks awful, you know, then you turn around and see it 90 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:36.600 in a Balanchine ballet or something, I go, whoops, maybe we should let Ruth do that. 91 00:09:39.640 --> 00:09:42.920 It's a thought that enters my mind every once in a while, if we wouldn't have 92 00:09:44.620 --> 00:09:51.860 gone more in her direction, if it wouldn't have come out differently. 93 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:57.640 But as it was, we did what we did, she did what she did, we worked together very well, 94 00:09:58.460 --> 00:10:03.780 forget I talked about the fights before, and for the most part she got her ideas across. 95 00:10:08.460 --> 00:10:10.880 Did you ever think about going to New York? 96 00:10:12.500 --> 00:10:16.520 I didn't think about it, I thought about going to Europe, and I did go to Europe. 97 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:22.740 I was hired as a premier dancer with the Frankfurt Opera House and it turned out to be a disastrous 98 00:10:22.740 --> 00:10:27.480 experience for me. They were a little, I don't know, don't remember what year that was, but they 99 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:34.700 were rather anti-American, I thought, and I was just miserably unhappy. And finally I just told 100 00:10:34.700 --> 00:10:39.020 him I wasn't going to stay and I left and called Ruth and said, you know, I'm not very happy and 101 00:10:39.020 --> 00:10:42.820 I really would like to come back. Because she had sent me with her blessing, thinking it would be a 102 00:10:42.820 --> 00:10:50.720 great growth experience for me. And I came, I ended up coming right back and fell right back into it. 103 00:10:51.540 --> 00:10:58.980 New York, I didn't think about going to until the company disbanded. And why didn't that work? 104 00:11:00.060 --> 00:11:01.920 I just, nothing happened. 105 00:11:03.680 --> 00:11:12.160 If you had to, Orin, think about a way to describe Ruth's relationship to you, how you feel about her. 106 00:11:12.460 --> 00:11:20.520 Would it be mother, older sister, aunt, something but... 107 00:11:20.520 --> 00:11:26.540 Best friend? She was... 108 00:11:26.540 --> 00:11:31.900 She was a very close friend, she still is. We were... 109 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:38.300 She always described it as we were pals. And she loved my honesty, she loved that I, she could ask 110 00:11:38.300 --> 00:11:44.160 me anything and I just, I'm almost incapable of lying. It's terrible, it's a real fault. 111 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:49.480 And so I would always honestly tell her what I thought and what was happening. 112 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:53.860 What do you think it is that keeps her going at this incredible pace? 113 00:11:54.760 --> 00:11:56.920 The same thing has always kept her going, she's marvelous. 114 00:11:57.560 --> 00:11:59.500 What is it? What inside her? 115 00:12:00.340 --> 00:12:03.440 She has enormous drive, she has ambition still. 116 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:08.600 I think she has a very, very clear 117 00:12:10.920 --> 00:12:17.120 concept of herself. She knows who she is, she knows what she's done, she knows what she's doing. 118 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:24.240 The school of hers is marvelous and it's going to be a wonderful monument to her, I think. 119 00:12:24.780 --> 00:12:30.920 She's training, she has good teachers here, she's training some nice, nice talent, 120 00:12:31.660 --> 00:12:34.900 talented dancers. We have turned out some beautiful dancers who have gone with ballet companies and 121 00:12:34.900 --> 00:12:40.720 we're all very proud of them. And I just think that she has such a zest for life and 122 00:12:42.260 --> 00:12:50.060 a joie de vivre that she just keeps going with it. She enjoys it so much. She just always has a good time. 123 00:12:51.020 --> 00:12:53.440 Can you imagine life without her? 124 00:12:55.000 --> 00:12:57.600 You're gonna make me cry again if I think about life without Rose Page. 125 00:13:01.520 --> 00:13:08.340 Tell me a little more about your own transition from performer to teacher. 126 00:13:09.860 --> 00:13:10.820 When I stopped, 127 00:13:11.560 --> 00:13:20.920 uh, well that was the Ben Stevenson years and there was a total turnover in the company. 128 00:13:23.620 --> 00:13:29.460 And I, Ben invited me to be ballet master further than Chicago Ballet, 129 00:13:29.520 --> 00:13:36.620 which I did for two years and two nervous breakdowns. And decided that that really was 130 00:13:36.620 --> 00:13:43.400 not for me. And I was starting to teach more and more at that time and I felt that I wanted to get 131 00:13:43.400 --> 00:13:52.220 away from the whole performing end of it and go totally into the teaching. Being involved with 132 00:13:52.220 --> 00:13:59.520 the performance and not being the performer didn't sit very well with me. I didn't feel, 133 00:14:00.140 --> 00:14:05.200 it's first as why I would never be a company director or even, well I'm not a choreographer 134 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:13.680 either. But I just felt that once I stopped, once I got off that end of that side of the footlights, 135 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:19.340 I wanted to stay away from the stage altogether and not be involved. I don't mind coaching a role 136 00:14:19.940 --> 00:14:26.260 or teaching someone apart, something like that. But I don't want to have anything to do with that, 137 00:14:26.260 --> 00:14:34.580 their performance. That's putting on, you know, their show. I don't feel like it's in me. I'm 138 00:14:34.580 --> 00:14:40.120 part of it somehow. What do you think the effect was on Ruth when she stopped dancing? 139 00:14:40.280 --> 00:14:48.560 You knew her while she was dancing and then after. She didn't bat an eye. She was doing 140 00:14:49.520 --> 00:14:55.480 Susanna in Susanna and the Barber, which was, it wasn't even that technical a role. I mean, 141 00:14:55.520 --> 00:15:01.320 it was dancing around and a lot of talking and had words and she always spoke so marvelously. 142 00:15:02.520 --> 00:15:09.540 And I think that she, well actually a review did come out saying that Miss Page should step aside 143 00:15:09.540 --> 00:15:12.700 and give younger dancers a chance and I think the minute she read that, that was the end of it. I 144 00:15:12.700 --> 00:15:20.300 don't think she ever did it again. She took that one really to heart. Could you detect a change in 145 00:15:20.300 --> 00:15:30.280 her? Not in the least. No. No, it just, she just obviously said to herself, well that's it. 146 00:15:32.040 --> 00:15:40.380 Finished. Tell me about Ruth Backstage. Oh, Ruth Backstage is marvelous. She makes us very, 147 00:15:40.380 --> 00:15:44.920 used to make us very nervous because there she was worrying about absolutely every single detail, 148 00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:52.920 your costume, your shoes, your tights, your hair, your makeup. You know, she would say crazy things 149 00:15:52.920 --> 00:15:58.280 to us sometimes like, oh darling, I hate you in this part. You know, then you're just about to go 150 00:15:58.280 --> 00:16:05.420 and we go, oh Ruth, thanks, I needed that. And out we go and thinking, well I'll just have to 151 00:16:05.420 --> 00:16:10.960 make her love me, you know, and off we go. Tell me about the running around Backstage naked. 152 00:16:11.280 --> 00:16:17.180 Tell me about it. Oh, can I say that on television? Ruth is very, shall we say, uninhibited 153 00:16:18.260 --> 00:16:25.460 and a naturalist at heart and it never enters her mind when she takes her clothes off that she 154 00:16:25.460 --> 00:16:29.620 shouldn't. And there were some times when she was just wandering around back there, 155 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.260 stagehands falling off ladders, you know, because she was always a beautiful woman. 156 00:16:35.640 --> 00:16:42.700 And she would just do it and we'd all go, Ruth, and try to cover her up. I'll never forget, 157 00:16:42.940 --> 00:16:47.720 was it Ken? I think Ken once just grabbed a towel and held it in front of her and she walked out from 158 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:52.920 the towel and said, what's the matter, darling? It was very funny. 159 00:16:54.520 --> 00:17:03.140 Tell me about your own joys and satisfactions in teaching. I love to teach. I feel 160 00:17:05.560 --> 00:17:11.160 when a student comes here to us, well first of all, they usually go through Patty. They start 161 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:16.500 as children with Patty Klikovic and then they, I get them when they're just coming into the 162 00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:22.060 intermediate level. And Patty trains them so beautifully and then when they get to the 163 00:17:22.060 --> 00:17:25.060 intermediate level, they have to learn the harder stuff and all the more complicated stuff. 164 00:17:25.840 --> 00:17:30.440 When they leave me and go to Larry to the advanced class, I can feel the difference. 165 00:17:32.760 --> 00:17:39.200 There they go to Larry and he loves them. It's so much easier for him to work with them because he 166 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:43.620 doesn't have to stop and teach them all the basics. They've got that rudimentary education from us. 167 00:17:43.620 --> 00:17:47.140 And then when we see them after he's through with them and they've got this 168 00:17:47.840 --> 00:17:55.020 finish and style and oh, that's great. It's just the most rewarding feeling. That's the joy of a 169 00:17:55.020 --> 00:18:01.700 teacher. That's our applause is when the kid becomes something. The pride you feel in that is 170 00:18:01.700 --> 00:18:09.900 just marvelous. Talent. Does talent stand out all over a student? It's a funny thing because some 171 00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:17.160 kids that we look at and you would say for instance, well their body is so wrong for dance. 172 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:21.460 It's going to be so hard for that poor little kid to pull all that together if they're uncoordinated 173 00:18:21.460 --> 00:18:26.760 or something. And you never know. Suddenly they reach a certain age and they go through this shift 174 00:18:26.760 --> 00:18:35.040 and their body changes and their brains change and they become another person. It's almost like a 175 00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:41.880 metamorphosis. That happens to the lucky ones. Some of them we see little kids with this enormous 176 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:49.000 talent and then they never change. Somehow their bodies don't do that metamorphosis and even though 177 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:54.740 they have all this facility, it just doesn't come together. And you can't tell which ones will and 178 00:18:54.740 --> 00:18:59.900 which ones won't. Some of the greatest dancers have been told that they should never dance. 179 00:18:59.900 --> 00:19:10.460 Lydia Albarca comes to my mind. Was told that she can't dance. What was her name? Lone Isiksen 180 00:19:10.460 --> 00:19:16.660 who was with Joffrey was told in Denmark that she would never dance. Became a big ballerina. 181 00:19:18.120 --> 00:19:24.220 You can't tell sometimes. It's very very tough to tell. How much? Okay, yes I have one wrap-up 182 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:31.080 which is, is there anything else I haven't thought to ask you? You forgot to ask me about Spoleto. 183 00:19:31.320 --> 00:19:39.020 Spoleto. We were in Spoleto, Ruth and I, with Arthur Mitchell's Dance Theater of Harlem and she 184 00:19:39.020 --> 00:19:48.600 was staging a updated version of Carmen for the company. And that was fun. We had a marvelous 185 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:55.600 medieval tower that Ruth had rented for this for our time there, which if we have time I'll 186 00:19:55.600 --> 00:19:59.800 tell you about. But it was very difficult to to get together with the company and get any 187 00:19:59.800 --> 00:20:06.740 rehearsal time. She was very frustrated by that. Delpho was, did the costumes and scenery for them 188 00:20:07.320 --> 00:20:18.580 and I don't know what he had trouble with them. They were fighting him. I don't know what their 189 00:20:18.580 --> 00:20:26.240 with Ruth and with Andre somehow and it was. They were also involved I think in getting some 190 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.860 other things. Yeah they were doing a million other things. Yeah and it was a lot of stuff so they were 191 00:20:30.860 --> 00:20:32.320 distracted. Very they were.