WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.540 --> 00:00:07.980 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 2 00:00:07.980 --> 00:00:08.400 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 3 00:00:08.520 --> 00:00:08.960 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 4 00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:09.780 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 5 00:00:13.780 --> 00:00:14.220 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 6 00:00:14.220 --> 00:00:19.900 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 7 00:00:19.900 --> 00:00:19.920 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 8 00:00:24.220 --> 00:00:24.280 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 9 00:00:25.680 --> 00:00:27.080 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 10 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:31.680 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 11 00:00:31.680 --> 00:00:37.500 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 12 00:00:37.820 --> 00:00:40.040 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 13 00:00:47.680 --> 00:00:48.320 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 14 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:51.520 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 15 00:00:52.300 --> 00:00:52.940 I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I can help you. 16 00:01:06.100 --> 00:01:10.240 You know Ruth really well and work with her very closely. 17 00:01:11.100 --> 00:01:11.320 You know Ruth really well and work with her very closely. 18 00:01:11.320 --> 00:01:13.780 How would you describe her personally? 19 00:01:13.900 --> 00:01:15.720 What kind of person is Ruth Page? 20 00:01:18.060 --> 00:01:23.060 Well, I think Ruth Page, underneath it all, so to speak, 21 00:01:23.360 --> 00:01:30.880 I think she's a very kind person, but also she just associates herself with people. 22 00:01:30.880 --> 00:01:35.700 Like she doesn't want to get hurt or involved, so she might tolerate you 23 00:01:35.700 --> 00:01:40.660 or love you for the day, so to speak, but she'll pull herself back. 24 00:01:41.540 --> 00:01:46.100 Like a funny story is that she wanted Patricia Klukovic to have a baby, 25 00:01:46.800 --> 00:01:52.300 but she didn't want to have Patty married, and she would take the baby and raise the baby. 26 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:55.760 Why do you think she wanted to do that? 27 00:01:56.200 --> 00:02:00.160 She wanted to raise the baby because she wanted children, but she didn't want to have the child. 28 00:02:00.160 --> 00:02:05.120 And she adored Patty and she wanted to raise the child as her own, maybe with Patty too, 29 00:02:05.140 --> 00:02:07.760 but she wanted to be maybe godmother for the child, 30 00:02:07.940 --> 00:02:11.560 but she didn't want Patty to be married, to have another maybe influence to it. 31 00:02:12.640 --> 00:02:13.280 So how did she react? 32 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:16.900 And I think even in Ruth's will, I'm not sure, but I think even in Ruth's will, 33 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:20.960 she was like leaving at that particular time some money to each person, 34 00:02:21.260 --> 00:02:25.740 and that Patty might have gotten more money if on Ruth's death she wasn't married. 35 00:02:25.740 --> 00:02:28.420 And Patty got married and I said, you goof, Patty. 36 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:36.060 But I mean it was funny, the little stipulations that she would have with things. 37 00:02:36.720 --> 00:02:40.760 But on the whole Ruth was, for me anyway, she was a wonderful woman. 38 00:02:41.640 --> 00:02:45.960 We had our ups and downs, but underneath it all, as I said, it was a family and it was a love affair. 39 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:51.580 And I'm sure that if Ruth would have been younger or I would have been older, 40 00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:54.180 the two of us would have met and danced together. 41 00:02:54.180 --> 00:02:57.520 We would have probably had a wonderful time together. 42 00:02:59.980 --> 00:03:04.600 Did you ever feel, or do you feel now, especially close to Ruth? 43 00:03:05.100 --> 00:03:08.500 Oh always. I mean always, I'll get a letter from her, 44 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:10.700 we'll talk on the phone or I'll see her in passing. 45 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:13.460 I mean there's always something that will never fade. 46 00:03:14.420 --> 00:03:18.640 I mean we were too close. I mean our lives was the dance. 47 00:03:19.300 --> 00:03:22.840 You know we had our outside life, but most of it was in the dance, 48 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:25.180 because it was almost like a 24-hour job. 49 00:03:25.600 --> 00:03:29.560 Even when I went home we talked about ballets at home and things and the characterizations. 50 00:03:30.220 --> 00:03:33.240 This is what made it with Ruth, because we'd come in the next day 51 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:36.680 and we would improve or we would discuss things. 52 00:03:36.880 --> 00:03:38.420 So it became our life completely. 53 00:03:39.660 --> 00:03:43.940 What was Patty's response to Ruth asking her to have a baby? 54 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:46.220 Oh, of course she laughed. 55 00:03:46.320 --> 00:03:51.680 I mean Patty always wanted children, but she was so involved in the dancing that it didn't happen. 56 00:03:52.740 --> 00:03:53.680 Now she teaches them. 57 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:57.520 I don't even know whether Ruth was even serious, but I think probably for the moment she was. 58 00:03:57.760 --> 00:03:59.940 But then maybe if it happened then she would have been bored. 59 00:04:00.040 --> 00:04:01.520 I think Ruth got bored easily. 60 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:06.440 I think that's what it was, that she would do certain things and then it was like, 61 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:09.420 you could be talking to her and all of a sudden she would turn you off, 62 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:10.640 like she didn't want to hear anymore. 63 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:14.000 She would go on to something else, because her mind would be on something else. 64 00:04:15.580 --> 00:04:17.100 It was like, I don't know whether you ever knew, 65 00:04:17.660 --> 00:04:20.320 like at night Ruth had a very difficult time sleeping, 66 00:04:20.320 --> 00:04:24.040 and she'd have her bath water run and she'd take like three baths a night. 67 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:27.020 She would just get out and take the baths to try to relax and everything. 68 00:04:27.980 --> 00:04:29.780 So she was probably always alert. 69 00:04:29.900 --> 00:04:31.340 She believed more in naps. 70 00:04:31.540 --> 00:04:35.640 She would rehearse all day and then she'd have lunch and then she'd lay down for five or ten minutes. 71 00:04:35.660 --> 00:04:39.960 She'd put a cloth or one of her chic clothes across her face, 72 00:04:39.980 --> 00:04:42.920 and then she'd still talk to you in that, but she would relax for about ten minutes, 73 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:44.400 and then she'd start again. 74 00:04:44.700 --> 00:04:48.720 But she would do zany things like, she would talk to me and she'd say, 75 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:49.400 She said, 76 00:04:49.620 --> 00:04:52.060 Now we're getting the costumes far too dirty. 77 00:04:52.200 --> 00:04:52.440 She said, 78 00:04:52.620 --> 00:04:54.200 I don't want to do anything on the floor anymore. 79 00:04:54.400 --> 00:04:57.440 No kneeling, nothing on the floor, none of those rolls, nothing. 80 00:04:57.440 --> 00:04:57.940 She said, 81 00:04:58.020 --> 00:04:59.260 I don't want to do it. 82 00:04:59.260 --> 00:05:01.660 So we started Camille, first day of rehearsal. 83 00:05:02.380 --> 00:05:03.660 So we started and she said, 84 00:05:03.860 --> 00:05:06.360 Well, now, Patty, you come on. Now, can you kneel? 85 00:05:06.420 --> 00:05:06.880 I said, 86 00:05:06.900 --> 00:05:08.180 Well, Ruth, you just said, 87 00:05:08.420 --> 00:05:10.060 Well, darling, you have to get on the floor sometime. 88 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:10.340 I said, 89 00:05:10.400 --> 00:05:11.400 The first step? 90 00:05:12.380 --> 00:05:14.880 The first step is kneel after this long talk. 91 00:05:15.220 --> 00:05:16.160 All right, go in her dressing room. 92 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:16.340 I said, 93 00:05:16.400 --> 00:05:17.400 What are you going to rehearse, Ruth? 94 00:05:17.400 --> 00:05:17.800 And she said, 95 00:05:18.060 --> 00:05:19.700 We can't do any of my ballets, darling. 96 00:05:19.700 --> 00:05:20.700 We can't do Chocolate Soldier. 97 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:21.620 We have to do the opera. 98 00:05:21.660 --> 00:05:23.780 We have to concentrate the whole day on the opera. 99 00:05:24.100 --> 00:05:24.580 So she said, 100 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:27.080 Just tell the children, you know, the kids that we will do that. 101 00:05:27.100 --> 00:05:28.000 So I'd go out and I'd say, 102 00:05:28.100 --> 00:05:29.700 All right, we're going to start with the opera. 103 00:05:29.740 --> 00:05:30.860 We're not doing any of the things. 104 00:05:30.960 --> 00:05:32.120 And Ruth would come out of the dressing room. 105 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:32.880 Two seconds later, 106 00:05:32.900 --> 00:05:33.020 I'd say, 107 00:05:33.100 --> 00:05:34.420 All right, let's run through Chocolate Soldier. 108 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:35.420 And I'd say, 109 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:36.120 Chocolate Soldier? 110 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:36.400 She said, 111 00:05:36.540 --> 00:05:38.100 Well, we have to do it once, darling. 112 00:05:38.760 --> 00:05:42.100 And I always looked like a fool talking to them because she changed instantly. 113 00:05:42.820 --> 00:05:43.260 Or she'd say, 114 00:05:43.260 --> 00:05:45.060 She'd take a break and she'd go through the door, 115 00:05:45.280 --> 00:05:46.020 Get a piece of cheese, 116 00:05:46.100 --> 00:05:46.620 Come out and say, 117 00:05:46.760 --> 00:05:47.300 Let's start. 118 00:05:47.620 --> 00:05:47.880 And we'd say, 119 00:05:47.940 --> 00:05:50.100 Ruth, we're just leaving. 120 00:05:50.880 --> 00:05:52.020 You know, she'd be just, 121 00:05:52.200 --> 00:05:54.020 Have her mind going all the time. 122 00:05:54.380 --> 00:05:55.720 Did she worry about money a lot? 123 00:05:56.340 --> 00:05:57.580 Just about the union. 124 00:05:58.240 --> 00:05:59.440 When she didn't have the union, 125 00:05:59.520 --> 00:06:00.020 She was fine. 126 00:06:00.060 --> 00:06:01.160 She'd work with us and that. 127 00:06:01.180 --> 00:06:03.220 She didn't have to pay the corps half the time. 128 00:06:03.300 --> 00:06:03.680 You know, 129 00:06:03.780 --> 00:06:05.120 She'd have parties or something. 130 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:07.600 But when the union came in, 131 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:11.000 Boy, it changed because there was no longer the stars and that. 132 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:12.120 It was the corps de ballet. 133 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:17.320 That's all she saw was 30 people or how many it was at that time standing there getting paid. 134 00:06:17.840 --> 00:06:19.040 So she would do. 135 00:06:19.620 --> 00:06:21.720 Normally we did our things before the tour, 136 00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:23.320 The rehearsal started, 137 00:06:23.520 --> 00:06:24.000 Patty and I. 138 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:26.360 So it was poor Orin and those people. 139 00:06:26.660 --> 00:06:29.060 He had a partner and they had to do flat around us. 140 00:06:29.420 --> 00:06:31.580 And they got the five minute breaks, 141 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:34.560 Which meant the company worked 55 minutes and she said, 142 00:06:34.640 --> 00:06:35.520 Orin, you can dance now. 143 00:06:35.520 --> 00:06:37.440 He'd have five minutes and she would stop them. 144 00:06:37.460 --> 00:06:38.300 If they were in a lift, 145 00:06:38.300 --> 00:06:42.040 She'd have to put her down and wait 55 more minutes. 146 00:06:42.660 --> 00:06:45.340 So I said, well, Orin, the ballet is like 50 minutes long. 147 00:06:45.420 --> 00:06:46.660 I said, how many breaks do you have? 148 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:48.280 You only have 25 minutes. 149 00:06:49.660 --> 00:06:53.260 And you cannot sit for 55 minutes and get up and do a pas de deux. 150 00:06:53.380 --> 00:06:54.380 You can't. 151 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:55.800 But that's what he had to do. 152 00:06:55.980 --> 00:06:58.600 Maybe do the pas de deux one break, a solo the next break. 153 00:06:59.860 --> 00:07:01.420 And she'd think nothing of it. 154 00:07:01.700 --> 00:07:02.980 You know, I mean, she really wouldn't. 155 00:07:03.180 --> 00:07:04.200 Was she unreasonable? 156 00:07:05.260 --> 00:07:06.420 Not for her, 157 00:07:06.420 --> 00:07:07.940 But for us. 158 00:07:08.540 --> 00:07:08.540 159 00:07:08.880 --> 00:07:10.780 I don't think she thought she was unreasonable, 160 00:07:11.540 --> 00:07:15.920 But she would do things like I had to teach and Larry Long would maybe 161 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:17.540 Teach the core downstairs and she's darling. 162 00:07:17.700 --> 00:07:20.200 You go up the stairs with the stars because they had a studio upstairs. 163 00:07:20.200 --> 00:07:23.720 So there I was with an array of Maria, tall chief, Marjorie, tall, 164 00:07:23.840 --> 00:07:24.680 Chief, Johnny Creeds. 165 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:25.320 So you name it. 166 00:07:25.320 --> 00:07:26.040 They were upstairs. 167 00:07:26.300 --> 00:07:29.380 I have to give piano without give class without a piano. 168 00:07:30.220 --> 00:07:31.600 So there I was counting. 169 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:33.600 So all my classes, except when Mr. 170 00:07:34.420 --> 00:07:37.820 Neo Cain would kind of send a play, 171 00:07:38.020 --> 00:07:40.060 Which was wonderful when we had the music. 172 00:07:40.380 --> 00:07:42.200 So I always talked, you know, speaking. 173 00:07:42.640 --> 00:07:44.400 So I'd sing the classes along. 174 00:07:44.540 --> 00:07:47.000 So even now I'm so used to it that when I have a pianist, 175 00:07:47.080 --> 00:07:48.240 I'm talking through it anyway. 176 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:49.580 And I can't stop. 177 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:51.960 It's like, you know, I just can't. 178 00:07:52.420 --> 00:07:53.740 She give very much praise. 179 00:07:56.300 --> 00:07:58.140 Later, like when I did, 180 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:00.820 Ruth would give you praise eventually. 181 00:08:00.820 --> 00:08:06.140 If she liked you like the best thing she ever said to me was that whenever Patty and I came out on stage, 182 00:08:06.140 --> 00:08:07.980 She said, I can sit back and relax. 183 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.400 She said, I know what you're going to do. 184 00:08:11.620 --> 00:08:13.400 She said, I just sit back and enjoy it. 185 00:08:13.420 --> 00:08:15.880 She said, when anybody else comes on, she's like tense. 186 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:19.740 So when we would do snow part of there is something which was extremely difficult, 187 00:08:19.760 --> 00:08:22.260 But we made it seem very easy. 188 00:08:22.280 --> 00:08:26.380 So when the guests came in, it was a different part of the it really was. 189 00:08:26.380 --> 00:08:27.880 And it wasn't just us saying it. 190 00:08:27.880 --> 00:08:30.400 I think Ruth was like, well, you can't, you know, 191 00:08:31.340 --> 00:08:33.160 like I would run the full length of the stage. 192 00:08:33.380 --> 00:08:35.800 I'd make like a figure eight with Patty and an overhead lift, 193 00:08:36.140 --> 00:08:37.000 which is difficult. 194 00:08:37.060 --> 00:08:37.660 I put her down. 195 00:08:37.780 --> 00:08:39.800 I go, Oh, my ankles are locked or something like that. 196 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:42.360 But by God, Ruth wanted it and I did it. 197 00:08:42.460 --> 00:08:46.580 And you'd get somebody else and she'd be screaming at them because they couldn't make it to the Christmas tree, 198 00:08:46.640 --> 00:08:48.440 which was halfway across the stage. 199 00:08:48.640 --> 00:08:50.940 She said, at least make it to the tree, you know, 200 00:08:51.020 --> 00:08:54.680 and they just go part way, go, oh, run back and come down. 201 00:08:54.680 --> 00:08:59.680 But it was that kind of thing that I think kept us going because Ruth reacted 202 00:09:00.980 --> 00:09:04.200 because if we did a part of there is something she almost had a tear in her eye. 203 00:09:04.300 --> 00:09:11.500 If it was a romantic or she related that where she'd laugh if something was funny, you know, but. 204 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:13.840 Criticism. How about criticism? 205 00:09:13.940 --> 00:09:15.060 How did she give criticism? 206 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:20.420 Well, sometimes she would, well, she would say things sometimes, but it was nasty. 207 00:09:20.560 --> 00:09:23.560 I mean, she might say she hates you in this part as you're going on the stage, 208 00:09:23.560 --> 00:09:27.480 but she'd always say like, this is the most important performance in your life. 209 00:09:27.640 --> 00:09:35.040 We've been playing some small town, you know, and she'd say so and so's out front or you go who somebody you never heard of. 210 00:09:35.160 --> 00:09:36.520 But she said, they're very important, darling. 211 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:41.780 There was Columbia, you know, and you'd go out there and be nervous again because it was like every night was an opening night with Ruth. 212 00:09:42.220 --> 00:09:44.560 And she didn't realize that she was saying it, you know, it was. 213 00:09:46.640 --> 00:09:49.520 That's interesting. That notion of every night being an opening night. 214 00:09:49.560 --> 00:09:50.500 It was with her. 215 00:09:50.500 --> 00:09:53.240 You danced in an awful lot of small places. 216 00:09:54.660 --> 00:10:04.900 And people have said to me that wherever you were, you danced, you danced the same way, whether you do anything dancing in in Paris or New York or Chicago or Beville, Texas. 217 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:05.820 Can you talk about that? 218 00:10:06.280 --> 00:10:13.040 Well, I think that was Patty and myself, especially every night was an opening night. 219 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:14.560 I mean, we loved what we were doing. 220 00:10:14.580 --> 00:10:19.780 We went out there and we always had an adrenaline going that it was important for us. 221 00:10:19.780 --> 00:10:28.420 And the music and our belief in the ballets and that really pulled us through a lot of terrible times. 222 00:10:28.700 --> 00:10:31.200 I mean, the theaters were cold or like glass. 223 00:10:32.300 --> 00:10:35.160 The stages were like glass and we tried everything on the floors. 224 00:10:35.300 --> 00:10:37.380 I mean, but we'd go out there and do our best. 225 00:10:37.560 --> 00:10:49.520 You know, in fact, another funny story was the fact that we went to several places and the floor was slippery and quite a few of the dancers complained and Rosam wouldn't take on the floors. 226 00:10:49.520 --> 00:10:51.860 They were like gym floors and it just wouldn't. 227 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:55.520 And they would even say we wax the floor for you, which is death. 228 00:10:55.760 --> 00:11:01.360 You know, so Ruth called Columbia and they said if we hit another slippery floor, don't dance. 229 00:11:01.860 --> 00:11:04.480 Well, that's unheard of for Columbia because that means no money. 230 00:11:05.280 --> 00:11:07.180 So the next place we played was Tampa. 231 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:09.520 And then we had a new theater. 232 00:11:09.520 --> 00:11:10.480 It was brand new. 233 00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:12.900 And we walked in and we knew something is wrong. 234 00:11:13.100 --> 00:11:15.720 We heard noises on the stage. 235 00:11:15.900 --> 00:11:18.000 And Ruth was sort of doing bar by the trunk. 236 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:22.580 And we walked up to Ruth and we said, well, Ruth, is everything all right? 237 00:11:22.620 --> 00:11:24.400 She said, well, darling, you can do it barefoot. 238 00:11:24.620 --> 00:11:26.040 And we went, uh-oh. 239 00:11:26.280 --> 00:11:32.540 So we looked at the stage and they had linseed oil on this brand new floor, which was sopping in linseed oil. 240 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:36.100 They had these sanders, huge sanders going over the floor. 241 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:37.980 It was going in oil. 242 00:11:38.420 --> 00:11:41.400 There was just no way you could stand up on that stage. 243 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:42.960 And the first ballet was Carmen. 244 00:11:44.260 --> 00:11:46.000 So we tried to do a bar. 245 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:48.100 We tried to find another place to do bar. 246 00:11:48.420 --> 00:11:49.880 Well, Carmen was down on point. 247 00:11:50.620 --> 00:11:51.980 And she said, do it barefoot. 248 00:11:52.640 --> 00:11:54.000 If you want to do it, do it barefoot. 249 00:11:54.060 --> 00:11:56.760 Well, that was ridiculous because I wasn't going to dance barefoot. 250 00:11:56.940 --> 00:11:58.380 And Sonia said, it's on point. 251 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.000 So we somehow got through it and nobody slipped. 252 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:06.080 Well, the kids made such a stink about it afterwards that they weren't going to do Mary Widow. 253 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:07.960 Well, I was flying out right after it. 254 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:10.740 So I did the first ballet, flew out, didn't know what was happening. 255 00:12:10.800 --> 00:12:11.920 And the kids were like striking. 256 00:12:12.020 --> 00:12:14.780 And Sonia said, if we could do this, you can do that. 257 00:12:14.780 --> 00:12:20.280 Well, we got out to the airport and the middle ballet, Orin was in, he flew out to the airport. 258 00:12:20.800 --> 00:12:21.680 And there was fog. 259 00:12:21.780 --> 00:12:23.200 And we didn't know whether we were going to get out or not. 260 00:12:23.260 --> 00:12:24.840 And the next plane left and the next plane. 261 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:26.620 And finally a cab arrives. 262 00:12:26.680 --> 00:12:29.280 Here's Ruth, the last plane out you finally made. 263 00:12:29.560 --> 00:12:30.300 The kids made it. 264 00:12:30.300 --> 00:12:31.540 A few of them fell down in that. 265 00:12:31.560 --> 00:12:32.660 But we never canceled. 266 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:34.800 She would not allow us to cancel. 267 00:12:35.700 --> 00:12:39.920 So even if they made a statement that don't dance, they didn't mean it. 268 00:12:40.700 --> 00:12:46.740 What did she do to keep you all sort of up and going on the grueling weeks of that tour? 269 00:12:47.500 --> 00:12:48.820 Well, she wasn't always with us. 270 00:12:49.020 --> 00:12:51.880 And one time we were having a lot of trouble with the manager in that. 271 00:12:53.060 --> 00:12:54.480 And certain theaters were bad. 272 00:12:54.940 --> 00:12:57.040 And Orin called Ruth and she came back. 273 00:12:57.400 --> 00:13:00.160 And the minute Ruth comes back, the company is a little different. 274 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:03.760 I mean, because, well, the management was there. 275 00:13:04.100 --> 00:13:07.420 But I mean, when Ruth wasn't there, we were a little freer about what we did. 276 00:13:07.420 --> 00:13:09.640 I mean, we still did the performances and that. 277 00:13:09.860 --> 00:13:11.160 But you felt a little different. 278 00:13:11.880 --> 00:13:12.940 Like I don't know what I told you. 279 00:13:13.100 --> 00:13:15.660 I mean, when I would sit out front after the first ballet with Ruth. 280 00:13:16.460 --> 00:13:17.920 And she'd be on the side. 281 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:19.140 She'd say, everybody's off center. 282 00:13:19.680 --> 00:13:21.580 And I'd say, well, Ruth, we're sitting on the side. 283 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:23.280 And she'd say, no, they're off center, darling. 284 00:13:23.620 --> 00:13:25.880 So she would have a rehearsal and she'd move them. 285 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:28.960 Then that night we'd sit in the center and she'd say, well, they're all sort of over there. 286 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:30.940 And I said, well, that's because you moved them over there, Ruth. 287 00:13:31.060 --> 00:13:32.760 You know, this would go on. 288 00:13:33.160 --> 00:13:36.100 So finally it got to the point when Ruth stood in the wings, 289 00:13:36.100 --> 00:13:37.980 which is the worst place to watch. 290 00:13:38.680 --> 00:13:43.300 We would literally take the whole ballet and turn it towards where she was standing. 291 00:13:43.680 --> 00:13:47.200 So if you did something straight front, you'd sort of cheat and go on an angle. 292 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:49.740 We never destroyed the performance because nobody would know. 293 00:13:49.780 --> 00:13:53.600 But we would know that you finished a little bit more this way than the letter C 294 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.780 or Ruryn sticking out or something like that. 295 00:13:56.900 --> 00:13:59.360 So we were always aware of where she was. 296 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:01.340 But I mean, it was funny. 297 00:14:01.820 --> 00:14:03.880 How did you talk about her when she wasn't around? 298 00:14:03.880 --> 00:14:06.440 I mean, did you have nicknames for her? 299 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:09.960 Well, she had several nicknames. 300 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:15.540 She had Rudy Toot Toot, they used to call her Rudy because of Frankie and Johnny 301 00:14:15.540 --> 00:14:18.860 because it was the gun, they'd go Rudy Toot Toot. 302 00:14:19.280 --> 00:14:22.140 Or Tom had a nickname, he'd call her Peter Pan. 303 00:14:23.560 --> 00:14:26.540 And Auntie Ruth because she was like Auntie Mame. 304 00:14:26.780 --> 00:14:29.500 I mean, she was just all over the place, but wonderful. 305 00:14:30.700 --> 00:14:33.260 Really, I have nothing but praise really for Ruth. 306 00:14:33.260 --> 00:14:39.260 I mean, because I understood her and she was in her own way wonderful. 307 00:14:40.540 --> 00:14:43.280 You know, it may not have been on a daily basis, but there was always something. 308 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.160 There was always the opportunity. 309 00:14:45.700 --> 00:14:48.380 My God, I mean, they brought Carla Fracci to America. 310 00:14:48.460 --> 00:14:49.860 I danced her America debut. 311 00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:51.520 She didn't have to dance with me. 312 00:14:51.520 --> 00:14:53.060 She probably never even heard of me. 313 00:14:53.560 --> 00:14:57.240 But we did Gioconda and we did the Dance of the Hours. 314 00:14:57.860 --> 00:14:58.880 And we did that. 315 00:14:59.020 --> 00:15:02.860 And then later they called me and the following season, I believe it was, 316 00:15:02.860 --> 00:15:07.360 because they were doing Rossignol, which was a big ballet with the music on the sides. 317 00:15:07.800 --> 00:15:10.840 And I danced with Carla and it was fantastic. 318 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:12.720 And that happened because Ruth said... 319 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:14.040 But I did her American debut. 320 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:17.840 It was because Ruth arranged it or with Maria Tolchik. 321 00:15:17.920 --> 00:15:22.820 I mean, all these big people, Markova in New York at the Broadway theater, you know. 322 00:15:22.820 --> 00:15:25.300 It was just unbelievable. I couldn't believe it. 323 00:15:25.480 --> 00:15:29.600 Even now I sort of go, was that me? You know, it's just unreal. 324 00:15:30.380 --> 00:15:31.440 So she did a lot for you. 325 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:33.220 Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely. 326 00:15:33.920 --> 00:15:36.260 It would have been easier for her to say, well, I'll get you this one. 327 00:15:36.260 --> 00:15:39.000 Well, I wanted to be a Broadway dancer. I didn't want to go into ballet. 328 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:42.420 I went to Chicago. I wanted to be another front of the stairs, something like that. 329 00:15:42.460 --> 00:15:44.040 I was singing and dancing and that. 330 00:15:44.400 --> 00:15:46.580 And they kept saying ballet and I went, ballet? 331 00:15:46.900 --> 00:15:49.660 I said, because I started in service when I was 19. 332 00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:52.760 I mean, 19 years old, I was dancing with a whack at a service club. 333 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:55.580 And one day an act didn't show up and they said, you have to do a number. 334 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:58.020 I said, do a number? I said, what's a number? 335 00:15:58.020 --> 00:16:01.440 So she said, sure, because she's done a little bit of nightclub dancing. 336 00:16:01.800 --> 00:16:06.280 So we went in the back room and she said, well, we'll do this jitterbug number thing. 337 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:08.880 Just dance, you know, and I'll show you a lift. 338 00:16:08.900 --> 00:16:11.040 So she showed me a lift and I said, well, how do we get into it? 339 00:16:11.060 --> 00:16:12.300 She said, squeeze my hand. 340 00:16:12.860 --> 00:16:16.240 So then she taught me another lift and then I said, well, do I squeeze your hand? 341 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:18.220 She said, yes, when we're ready, squeeze my hand. 342 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:20.800 So we went out and we danced and I squeezed her hand. 343 00:16:20.860 --> 00:16:22.440 She went out and we did the lift. 344 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:24.300 Then we did a little further and I squeezed her hand. 345 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:26.780 She go, ouch. We do the next lift. 346 00:16:26.780 --> 00:16:30.580 At the end I would trip her and I go to pick her up and she'd throw me in a somersault. 347 00:16:30.980 --> 00:16:32.580 We'd chase each other off, you know. 348 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:35.200 Well, the house came down. They loved it. 349 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:37.100 They loved it. It was in Fort Benning, Georgia. 350 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:40.380 And from then on we'd come in and we'd do another. 351 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:42.080 Every week we'd do something. 352 00:16:42.540 --> 00:16:48.060 And then one time a woman came to visit her husband from New York and she was a tap teacher. 353 00:16:48.280 --> 00:16:49.680 And he couldn't ballroom dance. 354 00:16:50.040 --> 00:16:54.840 And at that time I was teaching the paratroopers how to ballroom dance in the back room. 355 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:58.640 So she said if I taught her husband she would teach me tap. 356 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:02.800 So she taught me some tap, which I was terrible at, but at least it got me interested. 357 00:17:03.300 --> 00:17:07.380 So when I got discharged I got a job spraying elevators in Cleveland, right? 358 00:17:07.780 --> 00:17:11.240 And I hated it. I could do it in a half an hour and the other people could do it in hours. 359 00:17:11.280 --> 00:17:12.840 I was always like standing around. 360 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:15.960 So through mutual agreement I left. 361 00:17:16.060 --> 00:17:23.440 And I looked in the phone book and there on the GI Bill under dance it said you could take voice and ballet and all of this stuff. 362 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:24.240 And I went ballet. 363 00:17:24.460 --> 00:17:27.080 So I went there and I said I don't want to take ballet but I want this other stuff. 364 00:17:27.140 --> 00:17:29.380 And they said you have to take ballet to put in that much hours. 365 00:17:29.800 --> 00:17:30.800 And I thought what's ballet? 366 00:17:30.840 --> 00:17:34.360 So we put on bathing suits and there were three of us. 367 00:17:34.460 --> 00:17:36.500 And we would go in and do 45 minutes of ballet. 368 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:38.160 You know you could imagine what it looked like. 369 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:40.460 But they had pas de deux. 370 00:17:41.080 --> 00:17:43.260 They had how to do partnering and lifts. 371 00:17:44.040 --> 00:17:49.140 So when three months went by they had an audition for the Cleveland 500 which was Civic Light Opera. 372 00:17:49.140 --> 00:17:53.380 And I went down there the last audition with this girl that had auditioned with her mother. 373 00:17:53.740 --> 00:17:55.980 And she said go find out. See if they need a boy. 374 00:17:56.120 --> 00:17:56.920 And I said no. 375 00:17:57.080 --> 00:17:58.340 I said what can I do in three months? 376 00:17:58.980 --> 00:17:59.700 Stand up. 377 00:18:00.580 --> 00:18:02.460 So I went up there and I said excuse me. 378 00:18:02.540 --> 00:18:03.580 I said but do you need a boy? 379 00:18:03.800 --> 00:18:05.000 And she said well why didn't you audition? 380 00:18:05.140 --> 00:18:06.480 And I said well I didn't know. 381 00:18:06.740 --> 00:18:09.000 And she said well come in on Monday and I'll look at you. 382 00:18:09.360 --> 00:18:13.340 So over the weekend I went to the school and they taught me combinations fast. 383 00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:16.000 They taught me a character and a ballet thing and this and that. 384 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:19.120 So I went in on Monday and she said well just follow what the other boys do. 385 00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:22.380 So I did and she wasn't going to hire me because I was really terrible. 386 00:18:22.860 --> 00:18:25.560 But she said now lift the girl to the shoulder. 387 00:18:25.840 --> 00:18:27.540 And I was the only boy that could do it. 388 00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:29.720 I was the only boy that could do this and that. 389 00:18:29.900 --> 00:18:30.900 And she hired me. 390 00:18:31.120 --> 00:18:33.700 And that was my first job was in the Merry Widow. 391 00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:36.380 That's why I said this is the background for Ruth. 392 00:18:36.700 --> 00:18:42.200 And the conductor was Isaac Van Grove who was her conductor and arranger. 393 00:18:42.580 --> 00:18:44.820 So he introduced me to Ruth after that. 394 00:18:44.820 --> 00:18:48.640 So I met Ruth within three years of my training in that. 395 00:18:48.760 --> 00:18:50.160 And that's how I got into ballet. 396 00:18:50.320 --> 00:18:53.960 And then Anne Barzell the critic was doing shows there at the 8th Street Theater. 397 00:18:54.260 --> 00:18:57.820 And somebody, Richard Ellis who was with the Royal Ballet, 398 00:18:58.800 --> 00:19:01.800 was supposed to do Nutcracker Potadu and he backed out. 399 00:19:01.860 --> 00:19:04.580 And they got me to do it and I went what's a Nutcracker Potadu? 400 00:19:06.100 --> 00:19:09.140 So I learned it and I thought ballet was absolutely straight faced. 401 00:19:09.340 --> 00:19:11.380 You know you didn't smile, you didn't do anything like that. 402 00:19:11.600 --> 00:19:14.040 And out I went and I had a jacket that somebody made me. 403 00:19:14.040 --> 00:19:16.360 I had a classical jacket but on a woman's pattern. 404 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:20.060 And I kept saying one of these things, one of these things in the front. 405 00:19:20.180 --> 00:19:22.240 I couldn't imagine why I was puffed out. 406 00:19:22.340 --> 00:19:25.240 I said maybe I'm built wrong, I need steroids or something. 407 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:28.760 Anyway I came out for the coat and everything went pretty well. 408 00:19:28.940 --> 00:19:31.320 I came out for the coat and I went like this and it ripped and I went. 409 00:19:32.220 --> 00:19:34.340 I thought I'm sure they think I have strange arms. 410 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:39.280 That was my first initiation was doing that Potadu. 411 00:19:39.280 --> 00:19:42.700 And I had been doing Nutcracker ever since.