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I'm through.

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That wasn't it? That wasn't it? No film in the camera. Are you positive?

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Okay, here we go. I should say to you that we will edit my questions out. So anytime I ask you a question, if I say, when was the first time you met Ruth Page?

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I first met Ruth Page. So we can edit it out easily. Okay, here we go. So when was the first time you met Ruth Page?

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Well, the first time I met Ruth Page, I was in Chicago doing a pageant called Wheels of Roland. And our conductor had worked with Ruth Page and was also her arranger.

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So he introduced me to Ruth Page because she was doing a ballet version of the Merry Widow. And I had just done the Merry Widow in Cleveland and I knew the story and what we did in the dances.

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So I started to work for Ruth right away and became her assistant almost immediately. And a funny story about this is that one of the first rehearsals, Ruth was explaining to me how she wanted this pas de deux done.

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And we were Danilo and the Merry Widow. And she said, darling, I want it like ballroom dancers. She said, you have to be smooth like ballroom dancers like Velez and Yolanda, like ballroom dancers, darling.

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She said, now really be smooth like ballroom dancers. She said, now you've got it. She said, now let's do it. So we did the first step and we waltzed down and we did this and we finished and Ruth thought, she said, darling, you're too much like ballroom dancers.

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She said, oh, I want you to be like ballroom dancers. She said, but you're too much like ballroom dancers. And I went, Ruth, what do you want? She said, well, you should be like ballroom dancers.

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And then gradually through understanding Ruth, I knew what she meant. She wanted the quality but the ballet and feeling. And then we went on from there and I had learned all the parts.

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And I was very adept at doing lifts and Ruth adored lifts and that. And so we were working one day on the Villepot de Deux and our pianist, Neil Cain, who was also our conductor at times, was at the piano.

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And Ruth thought for a while and then she stood on the bench and she said, can lift me? So I said, all right, Ruth, I said, I'll take you by the hips and lift you off the bench.

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So I picked Ruth up and she arched her back and she put her feet together like this. And she said, Neil, what do I look like? And he said, Ruth, you look like a frog.

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And she went, oh, and she stopped and she said, all right. And she thought for a while and she said, can lift me? So I lifted her. She bent one leg and straightened the other one.

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She said, Neil, what do I look like? And he looked and he said, you look like a frog with one leg straight.

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So that was like what our rehearsals were like. And then another time, I mean, we were on the bench and she laid over my leg and she said, I'm going to bend back.

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Well, I had her hand, you know, and she said, darling, let go of my hand. I said, no, Ruth. And she said, no, no, no, let go, let go, darling.

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So I let go and she fell on her head.

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I mean, we were literally, we had a lot of fun if we lived through it. And then another funny story was I had to do a pop off.

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She was setting that part and it was a comedy part and it was a peekaboo into the summer house and his wife is in there with her lover and he's peeking.

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He thinks it's a couple and he's going to see something. So it was one of those peekaboo where he looks and then goes, wow.

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And then he looks again and he dances around and he sneaks back and forth.

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So it really was not my cup of tea, but I did it. And Ruth sat there and laughed and laughed and laughed.

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And she said, darling, you are so funny. And I felt great, you know, so I should do it again.

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And I said, no, Ruth, I don't want to do it again. She said, do it again. So I said, all right.

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So I did it again. And she sat there and she said, on second thought, you're not very funny at all.

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So that was my first introduction with Ruth. I said, a regular person, I think would have walked out and been insulted.

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But with her, it was wonderful.

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What had you heard about her before you met her? What were you expecting?

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Well, I just thought, I think what I really heard about her was that she was very zany, very nice woman, very nice woman and everything.

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But that you almost couldn't take her seriously, you know, because if you didn't know her to get really to know her and that her outward appearance gave you the fact that she was just flighty.

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I mean, that she couldn't be serious. And she was. And even if she was serious, I mean, she put on sort of a pseudo approach to it.

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I mean, to the average person. But when you knew Ruth, I mean, it was wonderful.

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You know, with Ruth and I, it was a love affair from the beginning. It really was a love affair.

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And even one time I was dancing somewhere and she came to see me and she said, that face, that face, if only I met you 20 years earlier.

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I thought, what is this woman saying to me? But then I realized that, you know, that I was a good partner, you know.

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And when we danced together, she loved it. You know, she really loved it. And we had a real close relationship.

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You partnered, Ruth.

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Mm hmm. It was at Revenue in Chicago. We did, it was Living Pictures. It was for Helen Gerrity.

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And we did a thing. It was, our picture was, I think, a clay, KLEE. And it showed a sailor with this girl pulling on him.

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And he's looking at these bathing beauties on the beach. And we came to life. And they did a wonderful thing to my man.

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The music was my man in that. And Ruth danced with me. And this bathing beauty who was gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous.

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She was the white rain girl on the commercials at that time, Audrey Johnson. And she walked across in this bathing suit, you know.

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And me as a sailor, I just turned and looked at her and Ruth was clutching me like a French dancer.

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And we finished the piece and Helen Gerrity, who was an older woman, said, Ruth, they will never believe this.

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Why would he go off with that young girl when he could have you? And Ruth was just, oh, that's true, darling, but we have to use our imagination.

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It was just wonderful, you know.

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Lots of people. I should explain to you that the reason we're not laughing out loud, we love that you laugh, is that it will be confusing because it's like where are all the laughs coming from?

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That's why we're all going, what's that? You should laugh and it sounds great.

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You'd seen Ruth dance before. Nobody has done a very good job of describing what made her special as a dancer.

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Well, Ruth Page, I think, was as special as a dancer because she believed in what she was doing.

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That she could take mediocre material and bring it to life because she believed in it.

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That she was excellent in comedy and she was also very good in what I saw was Beethoven.

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And she did it with Bentley Stone and she was very intense, very dramatic in what she did.

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And that she had, I suppose, some technical difficulties, you know, at that age, at that time that I'd seen her.

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But what she did was really phenomenal. I mean, it came across the footlights.

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She was an artist, I mean, and you couldn't miss it, you know. It was just, you believed it.

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You believed that the two of them were in love even though it was a classical piece.

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She just had charisma across the lights, you know.

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Was she very dramatic?

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Oh, very, extremely. She did Issa Chena and Revenge, which is El Trovator.

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And she'd lost her baby and, you know, it was just crazy. And she did this mad scene that was, oh, unbelievable.

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I mean, just, she'd beat on people and you knew she meant it and she probably did.

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She probably would like to kill several of us, but, you know, she really, you know, could pull it off.

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I mean, I would have liked to see more. And I saw videos of her doing Frankie and Johnny and it's the same thing.

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I mean, close, one girl here in Pittsburgh really did almost like an imitation of Ruth.

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And it was the closest to what you felt Ruth did. And it really worked.

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Otherwise, some of the ballets, anybody's ballets, if you have lesser people in them, they don't come alive.

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You know, the ballets don't carry them.

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Whereas Ruth things could make you, they could make stars and they did. They did out of all of us.

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I mean, you know, but her work was very believable and she loved doing it.

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And this rubbed off.

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That's why Patty and I, Patty, Patricia Kluckovic and I worked very well with Ruth.

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In fact, we would never stop. I mean, we would start, we would take class and then we'd go to Ruth's studio.

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And then we'd work from one to six, like straight through, or we might have a little lunch or something and go back to it.

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But we really worked for Ruth or somebody else would say, well, it's cocktail time or it's this, it's that.

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We'd always stay a little extra or something because we believed in it.

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Any fights we had, which were, I suppose, numerous, were always about the ballet.

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I mean, we had an interpretation this way, she had it that way and then together we would,

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somehow would come out all right.

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In fact, one time it was interesting. I was doing a ballet, Carmen, and we were at the Eighth Street Theater and it was time for the ending,

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which was my solo where I'm pleading with Carmen.

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And they had this mantilla on Carmen and Ruth, it was the first time I had done the solo.

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And Ruth is saying, wait a minute, you're taking the mantilla off wrong.

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And I'm going, what is she doing?

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And there's two corps de ballet girls. She said, well, maybe you should use your finger this way.

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Maybe you should do this. And I'm going, who's going to see that? I said, take the mantilla off.

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I said, it's my solo. And she said, well, wait a minute, I'm not so sure, darling.

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And she spent so much time with them. And finally I had a fight with her on the stage and she said,

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you're fired. That's it. You're fired. And I said, fine.

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And I went home and then I thought about it then.

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And then I called her up and I said, I was sorry. And then she said, you know,

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we got, the next day was fine. It was like never happened. But I mean,

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it was always the fights that we had were about the ballet.

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Did you often quit?

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No, that was the only time I didn't really quit. She was like, it was like mutual. It was like,

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well, if you're going to cause all this trouble, you know, but it was good trouble.

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You and Patty had a wonderfully productive creative partnership, it seems like.

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Can you talk a little bit about what it was in your partnership, the two of you,

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that made it special?

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Well, Patty was special to me as a partner because when you were on stage,

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Patty and I loved each other. I mean, we really did. It was a marriage on stage. And

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this, I'm sure, conveyed itself to the audience because people used to cry when we do Romeo and

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Juliet and they would come back, Mr. Petrov from the college here, he cried. And even in stock,

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when we would do certain pas de deux, we did Mary Widow in stock and we did a special pas de deux in

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it. And Patrice Mansell cried for 15 minutes. And she said, I'm so glad I'm nowhere near you two when

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you do this. She said, I wouldn't be able to sing because we were extremely lyrical. And when we

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danced, it came out. So if we do Camille or comedy or something like that, we always had a twinkle

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in our eye and it was always the two of us. And it was a wonderful relationship. I mean, she was a

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beautiful girl and she had beautiful extensions, but it was lyrical. And Patty was the kind of a

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ballerina too that all the ballerinas loved. Ria Tall, Chief loved her. They all loved Patty

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because there was no competition as such because Patty was such an individual and such a wonderful

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woman at that time. A girl really, you know. And the way we started was interesting because Patty

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was in the corps with Orin actually. And I was a principal by then. I was the second dancer. And

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Ruth said, darling, she said, there's three girls I would like to do Mary Widow with,

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but they can only do it if you rehearse it on your own time and you dance it.

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And I was doing all of these parts with Marjoletalji for Ms. Slavensker, whoever was the guest at that

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time. So I was doing double load and I said, all right. So I spent each time with each one in that

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and Patty and then Wade came out the best. And our relationship after that, she started doing parts

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in that and then gradually she filled in and we became a team. So in the summertime we'd come to

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Pittsburgh and we would dance in the Civic Light operas and we'd go different places and that.

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So it was really a wonderful relationship and she was very easy to partner. I mean, she was a tall

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girl in that, but her proportions were so that you could just, she could sit on your hand, one hand,

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which we did do. We always got the reviews for it. It was wonderful. That's why I said it was a family.

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We were like Ruth's children. You started with Ruth. Oh God, I can't believe that I killed that line.

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Would you say again, we were like, it was like a family. We were like Ruth's children in a sense.

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It was like a family with Ruth that we were like her children, that she nurtured us and we grew

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through her. Well, another funny story with Ruth is I was doing Manrico, which was a gypsy and far

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from a Norwegian. So I didn't know what to do and Oleg Bryansky used to camp. Everything was,

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we'd laugh. I said, what is he doing out there? Everything was like,

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and I went, oh my God, that's terrible. But he was wonderful in the role. You wore an earring in one

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ear before it was popular and all of that. So one day I was doing the performance and I finished and

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Ruth said, darling, she said, when you're on stage, frown once in a while. And I said, where Ruth,

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where do you want me to frown? She said, oh, I don't know. She said, just go out and frown once

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in a while. So I do a couple of steps and I go, and then I go a couple of steps, go like this.

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I came back and she said, oh, that was much better, dear. So we were in New York and we had

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to play the Broadway theater and this was an important time. And I was not doing it well.

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I danced it well in that, but I was not doing it well. And finally I got so mad at Ruth. She

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kept saying, it's awful, darling. So I thought, okay. So I went on and I pretended I was Oleg

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Bryansky and I went, and I finished, everybody applauded. We said, darling, that's it. And I

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can't do that every time because it was against my name. I said, this is camping and that, but I

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learned from that. And my God, I started doing it and it became second nature. I put my own

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interpretation of it, but that's how I got to do it. How did she, you were the most important male

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dancer in her company. How did she work to get you into a role? How did she? You mean coach me in a

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role? Yeah. Okay. Or maybe start from the beginning. What would it be like when she'd work,

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you know, do a ballet on you, create a ballet on you? What was that process like?

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Well, Ruth would start a ballet with me and she would have a few steps. And we would learn the

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steps and that sometimes a very unusual, I mean, you'd be doing things and suddenly be doing arms

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like this. Or she'd say, do the ghoul walk, or she had names for different things. Or everybody in

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China walks this way. And you went, you can't walk that way in China. Your feet would be gnarled or

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something like that. But we'd start to laugh and then try to figure out what she wanted. But

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she would gradually do this. And then I would suggest things. I'd say, well, Ruth, what about

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a turn here? And she said, let me see it. And then we would do this. And then she said, we'll try it

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this way or add this to it. And then I'd say, well, what about this lift? Or she'd ask for a lift.

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And I'd say, well, do you want a high one or a low one? And then I'd think about it and I would do

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something. And she would correct Patty a little bit. So that's why with Ruth, you never knew really

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where she stopped in our pas de deux and things and where I went further. Because I was like maybe a

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dance doctor. I would take things and I'd say, this isn't quite right. And I'd think about it and I'd

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try it this way and subtly put things in. So you didn't know what I did and what Ruth did. But

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between us, I mean, as I said, it was a love affair. We created something I believed in and loved to

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dance. I don't think there was any role with Ruth. I didn't enjoy dancing.

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Do you have a favorite?

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Are we out of tape?

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No.

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Do you have a favorite role?

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Well, as to favorite roles, I don't know because I enjoyed Mary Widow. I enjoyed doing Danilo. But

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after your tour for 17 weeks of One Night Stands, especially a couple years, then she did Carmen.

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And I didn't get a chance to do it because she brought in Johnny Kreitzer to do it. And I had a

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dance with Melissa Hayden. And Melissa Hayden wouldn't dance with anybody else but me once she

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found me in that. So I had a dance with Melissa. So one year Melissa wasn't coming. And I said,

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fine, Ruth, I can do Carmen. And she said, yes, darling, you can do Carmen. So I had to do Carmen

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and then she brought in Maria Talchi for a week. And I danced Camille with her, which was wonderful

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and wonderful opportunities to dance with these people. It was fantastic. Anyway, at the end of

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the week, Ruth said, darling, I have a surprise for you. And I said, what? She said, guess who's

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coming? And I said, who? And she said, Melissa. I said, no. And she said, I said, fine, she'll be

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glad to dance with your star. And she said, no, she'll only dance with you, darling.

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So what happened was I wound up doing Camille with her and then I would do Carmen with Patricia. So

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I was still doing double duty. But I enjoyed it. I really did. I thrived on it.

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How many years were you with Ruth?

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From 19 what? 56? I would say around that period, I believe, until,

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well, 1960, 1970, because I was still going back to do Nutcracker for Ruth. I was still doing that.

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So I would say I was still with Ruth till about, oh, much longer. Well, the company ended in 1969.

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But I came here because Ruth brought me here to Pittsburgh to start the Pittsburgh Ballet

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and we did Carmen. And Mr. Petrov adored me. And I adored Mr. Petrov because I looked at him.

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I said, he's a male Ruth page. Exactly. I said, I couldn't believe it. I said, his artistic

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ability was the same as Ruth. The ballets he created were the same as Ruth. They were dramatic.

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They were fun to do. They were emotional. And he was also slightly zany. I mean, it was crazy.

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I understood him. So he would go, Val, you do 32 counts this way and 24 that way. I said,

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well, Nicholas, you can't. You have to do 32 and 32. He says, Val, take something out.

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So as a dance doctor, I would take a couple of steps out and it would fit.

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So we worked beautifully together. But we did Carmen here and it was extremely successful.

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They adored Ruth. So in the meantime,