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This is tape number five, hour five on the time code with Freddie Franklin and this is

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off again. Yes, yes. We were talking about Billy Senneth and the critics

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response to Billy Senneth. As I recall, the church really insisted that you

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make some changes in the ballets. The wise and foolish, the ballets, the wise and foolish

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virgins became the wise and foolish maidens. When Delilah betrays Samson to

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Ku Klux Klan, they can't have crosses on their outfits anymore. That all happened and then with,

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you see, when it was the Ku Klux Klan didn't mean too much to us. So I mean,

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but you know, with Ruth having gone into all of this, knowing everything, and it was all

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Chuck Valley. She was very upset when all this took place, of course, but now when I

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remember in the performing of this ballet, the reactions were so very different wherever we

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took it. You know, going to some of these Bible Belt towns, they weren't very partial to us,

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you know, doing this. They didn't think it was quite right that there was, that I'd speak in

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all this baseball language and then all this would go on and then with the wise and the foolish

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virgins and the strange costumes. And of course, Delilah was something else. That was when that,

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when she cut the hair off. I mean, they were wonderful ideas. But then in all of Ruth's ballets,

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more and more, the more one sees today, the wonderful ideas, theatrical working ideas that

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were in her works that were really, in a way, taken for granted in those days because we didn't

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have what we have now, what they call the neoclassic ballet. We didn't have those.

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Now we're in this phase. We were doing story ballets, a lot of them then. So now when Ruth's

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things are revived, you see the great wealth of whatever was in them. You see it now. So people,

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and I say that with the revival of Billy Sunday, people were amazed at the thought and what had

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gone into them, what the ballet comprised, what it was about, and about this man and that she, Ruth,

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had found in his, whatever his parables were, things that could be put into a ballet company.

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Marvellously so. Of course, I, you see, I, the old score, we had a terrible difficulty with the

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music. This is when you revived it. No, when we did the first time, it was not right. And she was

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unhappy with it and it was nothing we could do about it. So when this was all started again,

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the first thing, Ruth, I said, music. She said, absolutely, absolutely. And we went from there

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and we had to start again from scratch. You know, but it was, she asked me what I thought. I said,

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well, it's a, we have to revive it. I said, I can't do it. I just couldn't. But I said, you know,

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I'll be directing and rehearsing and carrying on with it all, which we did. And I thought we had a,

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have you heard the score for this? It's wonderful. It's so right. What Carmen,

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he did is Carmen de Leoni and it works. Absolutely. It works very well. And the whole, the whole,

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the whole ballet now has a feeling of, we could be in one of his funny churches.

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You know, and the place where it, where he first started is right opposite the theatre in Cincinnati.

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Did you know that? It was pulled down where Billy Sandy started is right opposite the theatre where

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we gave this, this Billy Sandy, the revival. It's gone, but it was right opposite the theatre.

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And it was there. What was the first score like? Very, what can I say? Reminiscent

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of a few of our well-known composers like Stravinsky and Hindemith and name them. And

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dear, it wasn't, oh, she never liked it. She never liked it at all, but we were stuck with it. And we

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had to do it. Remy Gassman was the man, but then, you know, there was only the one condition she

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said, I'll only do it with the new music. And she worked very closely with, and she was very delighted

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because we had old hymns, which would have gone along with what he was saying, you know. And we

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indeed, the characters were good. We had girls that looked right. Kim was lovely as Bathsheba

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with all the hair going over the, it's a funny thing to say, not that I, and we were dressed

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differently, you know, the, the costumes were done things with the foolish and virgins and the wise

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virgins. Bathsheba was new, which was much better because dear Ruth wanted it without anything on.

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I said, well, we would just be locked up, so we can't do it that way. But, and the devils were

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much better this time. It worked. It worked. That old ballet, but it worked. It got over. They liked

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it. And I did a rip roaring finale. We had a real, Ruth said, you're going to have to do the finale.

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I said, well, Ruth, well, come on. She said, no, no, no, it's going to be yours. You have to do it.

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So I said to Carmen, well, what have you got? Well, we had a real jazzy of its time.

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And I had them doing all the Broadway stuff that I remember from the old days and the kids.

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It really, it really, it worked very well. Ruth was very pleased when she saw it. Very pleased.

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Well, would you say that something like that is, is really a revival of Billy Sunday?

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Sorry.

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No, that's okay. Say when?

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Yeah.

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Okay. I was starting to ask you the revival of Billy Sunday.

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Yes.

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Would you call it really a revival because it was so changed?

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Yes. Well, in a way, no, you're right. It wasn't a revival.

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The, the, the over, because of the new music, it all looked different. Now,

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what we had tried to do from the film that again, that we had was to copy some of the movements

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and put them to the new music. And that was a horrendous job. And I had many conversations

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with Ruth about this and she would tell me what doesn't, what doesn't really go, try and do

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something with it and make it an idea of what the step was. We were very fortunate. We got a lot of

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the original down, but there were some things that with a new, it would not have worked.

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And I said, Ruth, she came to the house. Now, Ruth, very calm here. This is the first time you

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don't go off the handle, fly. She said, but she's, you know, it's, it's, it's all right.

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She's, it's, it's so near the original. It's so near what we had. And I, and she had the music

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and it went and we made it fit and put it all together. So it did link and it did have sense.

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And all the, the major part of the choreography was all there. The major part, which was the

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little incidental things about an entrance. And of course, entrances and exits had to be different.

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The set was so different from what we had. Beautiful set with a big cross, the back that lit up and

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over the top and the, and the pulpits were all different. It really was.

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It's there. We're going to revive it. You know, we, we.

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And then this, this production is a production that was done for television.

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Yes. This was done for television. Of course, then went into the, into the rep of the Cincinnati

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ballet where it is still and will be. What was it about Billy Sunday, Freddie, that made you want to,

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to do that ballet rather than another one of Ruth's?

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Well, first of all, you, when you, you know, you look at a company,

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I knew we had a Billy. She, first thing she said, you have a Billy. And I said, yes, we do.

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The company is young. It would, I know the way they would attack. I know what, when they saw

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the wise and foolish virgins on the film, they were on the floor. They couldn't wait. Those girls

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beat each other to get the parts. You know, there was an enthusiasm right there

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that I knew would happen with a ballet of this kind of Ruth's.

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There were the, the boys had good stuff always as there were the devils and the things.

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There was the come to glory at the end. It was, it was timely for them to have done it. And I felt

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that they could and they came and they did. Now, do you think that we're seeing, you began to

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mention this, talking about this. Do you think we're seeing things going in a slightly different

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direction now away from the neoclassic ballet is really a better figure?

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Oh, I should think so.

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I should also. Okay. I started to ask.

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Yes.

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Do you think that there is, that there is, that there's going to be a change? I mean,

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Balanchine has been so much at the forefront, such an influence on what ballet in America has

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been for what, the last 15 years, 20 years?

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More, more even. Yes. Yes. Yes.

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Do you see a change?

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Yes, I do. And it's, if the change is going to come about, it's going to have to start in this city

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because of it being what it is. Now, I have just been to see the Béjar company.

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They are presenting stories, of course, which is his bent. Audiences are going. They are not

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funnily enough. Well, not at all funnily enough. They're not what we call ballet audiences. They're

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theater people. They're going in there and you know, and I've been there two or three times,

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that this is a ballet audience of what, can we say of the future? Sounds silly.

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No, not at all.

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But what is happening now, it's, you go to the city center, you know, and those glorious ballets,

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they are a cult audience that has become a cult audience that go there specifically for one reason,

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to see the ballets that that company gives. Balanchine in particular, Robbins now and again,

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Martin's maybe. Their whole viewpoint is geared to that one thing, that one aspect of dancing on

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the stage, that you'll have phenomenal music, whether you like it or whether you don't.

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And on the stage, you'll see this kind of ballet movement that Balanchine made, his ballet.

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Now a sidelight of this, I took Danny Lebut to the ballet theater and I took Lejard.

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We were sitting and she said, you know, Fred Inger, I am sick and tired of seeing ballets in

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Lyotard and the Tights. I said, sure, but that's where you live. She said, I know. But she said,

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now we must have more theater on the stage. Well, now if that's in her mind, theater,

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and it's always been in my mind, I'm not a neoclassic myself, you know, seeing it all. But

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we are going back and I think it's time that we did. And I think it's time, if only the audiences

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will and they will eventually realize, that's why, as I said before, Ruth's ballets, now you're going

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you are with Mary Widow, we've done Frankie and Johnny and we've done Billy Sunday. Why not?

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These ballets, and it's the same, will be the same kind of performance and the same kind of

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value that the Cincinnati Ballet will have, that it will not only do one kind of ballet.

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Now I've been there, we brought in, we have to, we always have a Balanchine, but we brought in

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and that's the way I think ballet companies should be run.

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Well don't you think the ballet press is going to have to be re-educated in this city?

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In your, well now, that's it, it's upon us. Yes, indeed. Now we've just been inundated with a

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lady by the name of Pina Bausch, who has come with something most extraordinary. And the critics

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that are up in arms, one lot writes one thing and the other writes the other and they're all,

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but it's nonsense. Some of them say it's absolute nonsense and what's she doing here?

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And others, I won't mention who, rave, see wonderful insights, see thoughts and

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I would go and I might last till the intermission and I'd be out, but I can't, I can't get along

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with that. But in the meantime, it's, it's, I think it's very healthy for people like

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Béjant to come. Now, Yvonne, now she's bringing the ballet, his, he also, like we all are,

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he's not going to bring a lot of sort of abstract works, he's going to bring meat and the dead,

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you know, meat and vegetables and I think that's what, that's more and more you see companies

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going this way. I think eventually, I think eventually that's what's going to have to happen

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with the, with the Banishing companies, we still call it, because nobody can do what Mr Banishing

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did, nobody can do that anymore, they cannot take a magnificent piece of music and make,

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make it, make it so the audience will think it's marvellous. There isn't anybody that can do that,

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so they're going to have to change the tactic. But you know, but the thing is then the dancers

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are going to have to be re-educated apart from anybody else because they're going to have to

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get used to dancing other ways, not in only one style and that's what's happening down there.

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People like gorgeous dancers like Suzanne Farrell and lovely Peter Martins and all those lovely

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people that they, if you couldn't put them in a spandex, if you did you'd have to train them for,

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they'd have to go into serious training for two or three years to do a ballet like Chiselle or to

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do a ballet like Smollick even if they wished and half the time they don't because they're so

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indoctrinated in the one aspect and that was Mr Banishing's idea like the famous lines,

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don't bother about expression, just do the steps and there you are. But I think it's changing

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and I hope it is. It's true. To what degree would you say, Freddie, that, do you think that,

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that Ruth's contributions to American choreography are under-appreciated or not? Well, you know,

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well, let's put it this way, she's one of them, she is one of the important ladies.

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She, and like the earlier days, she and Agnes, Hania Holm, all those people, oh my goodness me,

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yes indeed, she, unlike, well not with Agnes, but she, like Hania Holm or Doris Humphreys,

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remember they only worked on one aspect of dancing. Now Ruth was classically trained

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but also had the facilities to do other things and also had the mind to go with it,

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which is a big, big plus. So that Hugh was not hidebound by any kind of modern so-called dance.

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She could perform it, she could do it, she could bring it into the, into her productions,

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but she was a theatrical lady more so than those ladies. Now Agnes came along and Agnes was a

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theatrical lady and Agnes grew. She grew with the choreography, she grew, well she did ballet,

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she grew. Ruth was already there. Ruth was a better dancer than Agnes, which shows and has been,

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always been that way with her. So that with Ruth Page, when she came in, she came into the ballet

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for an outlet because her works would fit, whereas some of the other stuff the other people

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did would not have fitted in. But remember it was also a difficult time, a difficult time of

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putting on or getting ballets like this. As I said, we were surrounded by them. Now if we'd had a

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bit more of Mr. Balashene at that time, they all those ballets, Agnes's, they all would have thought

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as being very different from what they were thought of then. But still, you look at them,

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you see them, we all knew they were. We all waited for Ruth to come and do these ballets.

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She was a renowned lady, still is of course, but she was, she's a renowned choreographer and really

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as some, what, somebody called her an American treasure or something, but she is. And we've always

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thought of, I always thought of her like this. I couldn't, you see, I couldn't have gone to

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any of the other management's, could I? I said, look, we're going to do a Ruth Page ballet.

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They'd have gone, who's that? No way. Well, fine. What will we do? Frankie, marvelous.

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When I said to the artistic directors in Cincinnati, I said, you know, we should do

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Frankie and Johnny here. They said, down the, what? I said, oh, very good for your company and very

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good for your dancers. They said, you think so? I said, I know so. Of course, Cindy Rose was there.

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Cindy Rose is with the natural. So in comes Ruth. They were delighted. Delighted.

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Do you think that if Ruth had lived in New York, her work would have been different?

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Yes.

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In what way?

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Well, first of all, as I said, we've always said Ruth, Ruth, it's a strange thing. A parallel,

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if you could, if you can say that, a parallel of Ruth's career and my career,

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she wasn't a hothouse ballet dancer, no more than I was. I was brought up in the theaters.

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I've explained before. So was she. She'd have been, if she had been here, she already had danced in

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the reviews at the music box. She'd have been more called upon to, rather called upon to do more

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of Broadway shows of, with, as well as doing her own stuff. And she told me, you know, she said

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only one thing Tom and I didn't agree about. And that was when she's, I asked him if we could

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go live in New York. And he said, no, we have to live here. And I don't think she ever quite

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forgave him for that. However, but she's, she often has said to me, oh, I wish I'd, I wish I'd

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lived in New York. Her life would have been very different. And yet, when you think that she in

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Chicago is an absolute landmark there with what she did, not only for the ballet, but for the opera.

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Oh yes.

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I mean, you know, one can't say, one can't be ah-butt about any of this.

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Oh, it'd be ah, well, you know, you can't be like that. It's happening. I mean, you see, I'm one of

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those faker people. I believe it all happens for the best. And I believe everything's right.

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And it's all going that way. And it's what the bad things happen to you, as well as the good things.

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And I believe in that very, very strongly. That's carried me through a lot of things.

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In my career, lots of people said, Billy Sande came along. She believed in me.

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Franklin, with a midwestern accent, preaching from a pulpit. She knew I could do it.

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Nobody said, no one thought I could do Stanley. Streetcar, it was one of the best things I ever

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did in my career. But Valerie Bettis did. I've had such trust and faith in these people. And I've

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worked and worked till I've dropped to make, you know, to come out right, knowing that they put the

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trust in me. It's important. The proven what?

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Yeah. Well, there we go.