WEBVTT

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It scares me to death.

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He's so intelligent.

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No I'm not.

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And he's a lawyer.

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Do you know lawyers?

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How logically they think.

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No.

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I flip around and think about this and think about that.

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But I'm not logical at all.

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You have to be logical in order to create the things that you do.

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No, I don't have to be logical at all.

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Okay.

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We're rolling and recording and we can go or five seconds away?

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It's all speed.

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It's all speed.

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You're not logical.

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No.

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Why should I be?

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Do you admire people who are?

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Yes, that's why I admire lawyers so much.

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They're taught to think, think logically.

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And they do on the whole.

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I know a lot of lawyers.

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I know a lot of lawyers all my life.

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And being married to one for so long, you see, they really use their brains because their brains are trained.

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Mine aren't.

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Doesn't a choreographer need to use her brains in lots of ways?

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That's not about ordinary things.

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That's art.

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That has nothing to do with life.

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Is there a problem?

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Yes, I'm just going to change the battery here.

33
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Oh, okay.

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Oh, I'm going to ask you what you meant.

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What I meant?

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You wrote them.

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It's all yours.

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Ruth, recently you wrote a series of what-if questions with very short answers.

40
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And I wonder how you came up with some of the answers.

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For example, you say, what if your husband wants to divorce you?

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You should try to be more seductive and maybe he will stay.

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That sounds very good.

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Don't you think that makes sense?

45
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Well, I guess I do.

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If your husband wants to divorce you, seductiveness, do you really believe that seductiveness is the major answer?

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I don't know.

48
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My husband never wanted to divorce me, so I don't know what I think about that.

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He never suggested divorcing me.

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That's just a what-if.

51
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Why do you suppose so many people get divorced nowadays?

52
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Oh, they haven't got any sense, I think.

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They don't know how to live with somebody.

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You have to adjust yourself, I think, to somebody.

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You can't just do your own thing.

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You have to, I don't know, I think it's a great art to live with somebody, don't you?

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Yes.

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It's not easy.

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What's the secret?

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Well, learn to adjust to somebody else.

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Just don't do your own thing all the time.

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Learn to live with somebody.

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You have to see what they like to do and be and go and all that sort of thing.

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You and Tom had a very long and happy marriage.

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Yes, we did.

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What was there in your relationship that made it work?

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That's a long time to be married.

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Well, I think first of all we adored each other and wanted me to do what I wanted to do

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and I wanted him to do what he wanted to do.

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We didn't want to be tied down all the time and we weren't.

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I think that's why that was a success at marriage.

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When you would be away from each other, which you were for long periods of time,

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you away with touring Tom in Texas for long periods of time,

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how did you stay in touch? Did you write or call?

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We wrote to each other all the time or telephoned.

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Yeah, we stayed in touch with each other all the time.

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Every day?

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Yes, sure.

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Did absence make the heart grow fonder?

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Oh, what a silly question. I don't know.

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I always adored Tom.

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Another Ruth Page, what if, you wrote,

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what if you loved two men at the same time?

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Give them both up.

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That's what I said. That's a very good answer, I think.

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That's a marvelous answer.

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So do I. What do you mean by that?

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Well, if you loved two men, just give them both up.

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Just what I said, I think that's a very sensible idea.

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Solves the problem.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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That's a complete answer.

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What if you were sick is another question, and your answer was,

95
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try to logically cure yourself. A doctor can never help much.

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That's true, I think. Yeah, you can cure yourself.

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Logically?

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Yes. I think so.

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I mean, if you've got some, oh, if you've got smallpox or something,

100
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I don't suppose you could, or some contagious disease,

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but the little sicknesses that you get, I think you can cure yourself.

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Stay in bed a while. Eat the right food. Whatever.

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Have you ever worried much about your own health?

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No. If I get sick, I take care of myself.

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I don't get sick very often. I'm much stronger now than I was when I was young.

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Really?

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Mm-hmm.

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You were sick more often then?

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Mm-hmm.

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I was reading some old things the other day,

111
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and I seemed to always be getting sick with something or other,

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but now I'm stronger.

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Not serious things. You would get sick with colds or flu?

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Yeah. I don't get colds anymore.

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Never get a cold. I don't know why.

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I'm not complaining. I just don't ever get colds anymore.

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I don't either, and I think it's because I don't believe in them.

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I think if you don't believe in colds, you don't get them.

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I don't know. It's awfully disagreeable if you do get one.

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I haven't had a cold for years. I'll probably get one now.

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Now that you've said it, right.

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You also wrote, what if, question, a Ruth Pate,

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what if you love the world and the world doesn't love you?

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Your answer? Try a few tricks.

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Try a few tricks? Well, that's a good answer.

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What kind of tricks?

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Well, read me the question again.

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What if you love the world and the world doesn't love you?

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Well, that's a very difficult situation to be in, I think, don't you?

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Yes.

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And I don't know how you, I couldn't answer that question. I really couldn't.

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Have you ever been in that situation?

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Yes, the world doesn't love me at all, I don't think.

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They really don't. I don't know anybody who loves me.

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You wrote after Tom died that the hardest thing about being a widow

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is getting used to the idea that nobody loves you.

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That's true. That's true. That's a very good answer.

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Did you, what did you mean by that? That the sense of somebody loving you had gone out of your life?

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Yes, it's hard, I think, not to have anybody that loves you in your life. Don't you think so?

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Yes.

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I mean, it's very hard. If you've been loved all your life, then all of a sudden he dies.

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What do you do? You can't find somebody else right away. It's too hard. I mean, you don't feel like it.

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What did you do right after Tom died?

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Just what I always did.

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Work?

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Mm-hmm. I had to find different people to go out with. That's difficult, I think.

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I can't go out alone at night. I'm scared to.

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And you have to find people that will go out with you, who like the same thing that you do.

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And that's not easy. In fact, it's very difficult.

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You couldn't have just continued with your same friends, the friends you have?

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Well, yes, of course, but it's usually two people.

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Or you have to find a man to go out with, or find some woman to go out with, too, I suppose.

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You have to find somebody to go out with. I don't like to go out alone at night. I'm scared to.

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Ever since the mugging, it's hard.

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You know, things have changed, and now very often women feel comfortable going out with another woman,

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or men and women both, not being part of a couple.

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When Tom was alive and now with Andre, you always felt that you were part of a couple.

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In other words, that you were a couple together, and that was very important to you.

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With Tom and me? I never thought about it at all.

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Andre was a very good friend of Tom's, too.

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You said that you asked Andre to marry you.

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Yes.

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And he said yes right away.

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Yes. It was very simple.

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You said you didn't know why you'd asked him to marry you.

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Well, I always liked to be with him, and Solovey thought it was a very good idea.

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He encouraged us to get married.

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He's a wonderful companion. I adore him.

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How did your life change after you married Andre?

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Well, Andre is one of these people that's very helpless.

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Tom was a practical man of the world, and Andre is an artist.

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So I had to be the practical person and take care of Andre, which isn't always too easy.

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But we get along so far very good. I'm not getting on with it.

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What do you do to take care of him? What kinds of things?

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Well, I see that he gets tickets for everything, and I have to do all that kind of thing.

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Get all the tickets for a plane or for the theatre or whatever we're going to.

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I have to make all the arrangements. Tom used to always do that.

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I have to write all the letters now. Andre never writes any letters. I have to do it all.

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So I'm the businesswoman. A wonderful businesswoman.

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Do you like being a businesswoman?

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Not a bit.

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Not a bit.

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No. I preferred when Tom took care of everything. I never even mailed a letter.

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I wrote the letters, and then Tom stamped them and put the correct address on.

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Andre doesn't do anything like that. He doesn't know anybody's name.

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He doesn't know anybody's address. He doesn't know how to stamp a letter, I don't think.

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He's useless.

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And you say that Andre doesn't like parties and people, yet when he goes.

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That's true. He's always very, very conscientious and always makes himself be very attractive.

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I think he is when he goes to a party. He doesn't like to go to parties.

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He says he doesn't, but when I make him go, he comes across marvelously, I think.

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He's a very attractive man, I think.

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Is that a lie?

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Yeah. He's an unusual man. He knows so much. You can talk to him about any subject.

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History, philosophy, literature.

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Yeah, anything. He's read everything. He's been every place. Man of the world.

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I think he's a wonderful painter, too. A marvelous painter.

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I think so, too. He's different from Tom, though.

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Entirely. Tom wasn't an artist at all. He was a lawyer. That's very different.

200
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But also a man of the world?

201
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Oh, yeah. Tom? I should say he was, yeah.

202
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There are reports you read about Tom. Some of the things that I've read indicate that he was a man who

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always knew what was going on behind the scenes as well as the obvious things.

204
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Yes. He knew a lot. I don't know how he found out everything, but he always found out everything about

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what he was doing, what was going on in the world. Thought about it. He made sense.

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He also seemed to have a very good sense of the intrigues that would go on in the world of the ballet, too.

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I guess he did.

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He liked the people in the ballet.

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Oh, yes. I think he often with Andre says, oh, don't you know anybody but dancers?

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It's true. When Tom died, I only knew dancers, really. I'd like to go out with dancers.

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Andre likes dancers, too, but not all the time. That's the difference.

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You've talked about entertaining for dancers and talked about how when you were out on tour and people

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would give parties for you and for the rest of the people in the troupe, how it always annoyed you about the

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kind of food that they served.

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Well, dancers are hungry. They don't eat any dinner. If you go to a party after something, they give you

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nothing but lemonade and cookies. I just wrote in advance, I said, well, come to your party. If you'll feed it,

217
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feed the dancers. You've got to give them something substantial to eat. Then it was all right on both sides.

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You once gave a party for Margot Fontaine when she danced here in Chicago and where you served the food to the

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dancers first. Do you remember?

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Yes, because our society friends don't care about eating at midnight. They're not hungry and they just drink.

221
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So you let them drink and let the dancers eat. That's as simple as that. Dancers don't drink very much.

222
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Do they eat a lot?

223
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Yes. At the proper times, they eat after they dance. You can't eat before you dance. They don't eat any dinner.

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They are hungry after the performance.

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What kind of food?

226
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Anything. Turkey, ham, chicken, whatever anybody else eats. Don't have any special things to eat. I don't know many

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vegetarians. We had a man the other night who was a vegetarian. He drove me crazy. Who was it? It was Alvin Ailey.

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He wouldn't eat anything. He ate some carrots for dinner. I thought that was pretty uninteresting as a meal.

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We all were eating and had a good meal. We had a delicious meal because he was company. We had a wonderful meal.

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He didn't eat any of it. He wouldn't eat any dessert. We had a lovely dessert. She makes good desserts.

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We had veal. He wouldn't eat that. He just ate some carrots. I felt very badly.

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You've never followed any special diet?

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No. I eat whatever I feel like eating. I don't eat very much, but I eat regularly. Del Four likes to eat one good meal and then not eat for the rest of the day.

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I like three meals a day, but very small.

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00:16:10.560 --> 00:16:13.320
You've never had any trouble with your weight?

236
00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:22.820
No. I haven't. I'm about three pounds too heavy now. I think I've got to stop eating.

237
00:16:23.380 --> 00:16:24.620
That's not much.

238
00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:26.020
For a few days.

239
00:16:28.020 --> 00:16:30.400
You've never had to worry about it, Ruth, your weight?

240
00:16:30.900 --> 00:16:34.360
No. Never thought about it.

241
00:16:35.380 --> 00:16:36.220
You're lucky.

242
00:16:36.220 --> 00:16:38.140
I guess so.

243
00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:55.600
It strikes me that in some ways your marriage to Andre is similar to your marriage to Tom in that you both afford each other the freedom to be separate.

244
00:16:55.740 --> 00:17:01.620
That's true. Andre can do whatever he pleases and so can I.

245
00:17:02.660 --> 00:17:07.700
I like to stay in Chicago because all my friends are here and my school is here and I love my apartment.

246
00:17:08.060 --> 00:17:16.060
But this is a terrible place for Andre because he can't stand the cold. He's got something wrong with his chest and he can't go out in this weather.

247
00:17:17.020 --> 00:17:26.060
That's bad. He likes to go to Marrakesh and I don't like to go there at all. It's a nice place, but there's nothing for me to do there.

248
00:17:26.060 --> 00:17:34.140
I can paint all day, but I don't have any dancers there, no studios, and I can't do anything there so I'd prefer to stay here.

249
00:17:35.060 --> 00:17:38.580
Do you think a lot of marriages suffer from too much togetherness?

250
00:17:39.140 --> 00:17:46.420
Oh sure, you shouldn't stay together all the time. You shouldn't be separate too much also.

251
00:17:47.540 --> 00:17:50.660
Do you think that there were times when you and Tom were separate too much?

252
00:17:51.780 --> 00:18:00.500
No, no. We always got together for our vacations. We always took our vacations together. He'd come and see me wherever I was. I'd go see him wherever he was.

253
00:18:01.040 --> 00:18:04.440
I didn't go down to Texas to see him because he didn't want me to.

254
00:18:05.020 --> 00:18:05.700
Why not?

255
00:18:05.840 --> 00:18:16.540
He said I wouldn't like it. He had to work very hard there and that case was very boring apparently. It's very tedious and long.

256
00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:17.900
I'll take.

257
00:18:17.900 --> 00:18:23.300
Okay. How much time do you have left on the table?

258
00:18:23.980 --> 00:18:25.220
A minute and a half.

259
00:18:26.180 --> 00:18:30.760
Okay. Just for the very end, tell us about what you're wearing.

260
00:18:32.120 --> 00:18:33.380
What am I wearing?

261
00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:37.580
The dress, the jewelry and where it comes from.

262
00:18:37.580 --> 00:18:45.680
Oh, well this jewelry is an old necklace from the Mary Widow from the Corte Ballet. And so is the bracelet.

263
00:18:46.580 --> 00:18:53.920
And the dress, I bought it. It's one of Saint Laurent's boutique dresses. That's all. There's nothing to tell about it.

264
00:18:54.540 --> 00:18:55.100
The earrings?

265
00:18:55.620 --> 00:19:02.580
Oh, I don't know where they came from. I hate to wear earrings. I like to take them off. I don't like to wear earrings or rings.

266
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:07.620
Oh, that's good to get them off. I just put them on to look nice with the television.

267
00:19:09.340 --> 00:19:12.080
You did. You look wonderful. The shoes? Where are the shoes from?

268
00:19:12.560 --> 00:19:17.760
Oh, I'm very fussy about shoes. I like to have comfortable shoes. It's very hard to get comfortable shoes, I think.

269
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:24.060
So I don't wear high heels. This is about as high a heel as I wear. These are comfortable because they're open toes. You have open toes too.

270
00:19:24.580 --> 00:19:30.240
They're very comfortable, these shoes. But I find it difficult to get comfortable shoes. Very difficult.

271
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.260
I think women are crazy what they wear.

272
00:19:34.060 --> 00:19:36.660
High heeled shoes? Dumb.

273
00:19:37.280 --> 00:19:43.500
Yes, it throws your whole body out. It's not only bad for your feet, but it throws your whole body out. It kills it. It throws your weight forward.

274
00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:47.020
You used to wear high heeled shoes all the time, didn't you?

275
00:19:47.340 --> 00:19:59.820
No. I wore them, but I never liked to wear them. I did wear them once in a while. I never wore exaggerated high heels. Did you?

276
00:19:59.820 --> 00:20:04.620
No. I thought they were dumb too. Tell us about the shawl.

277
00:20:05.900 --> 00:20:16.020
Oh, this came from Paris and my lawyer's wife got it for me and I love it. It's a nice red shawl. I love red. It's a pretty shawl, don't you think?

278
00:20:16.220 --> 00:20:16.600
Yes, I do.

279
00:20:16.600 --> 00:20:24.640
I wear it all the time. He gives me wonderful presents so always. He's very good at getting presents.

280
00:20:26.600 --> 00:20:29.320
Do you still have the shawl that Anna Pablaba?

281
00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:41.120
Yes, I have it in my closet in there. It's a Spanish shawl. She gave me that when I was a kid. It's lovely. I don't wear it very often. I don't know why. It's a beautiful shawl.

282
00:20:41.220 --> 00:20:50.640
One of those conventionals. What you think of as a Spanish shawl, you know, sort of tan color with broidered roses and things on it.

283
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:54.680
It's one of your favorite possessions.

284
00:20:55.540 --> 00:20:56.640
I suppose so.

285
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:00.760
Okay, good.

286
00:21:01.820 --> 00:21:02.240
We're finished.

287
00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:03.920
We're finished for now.

288
00:21:04.520 --> 00:21:04.820
Well.