WEBVTT

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You ready?

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We should record the part that's on.

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Okay, tell me when.

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Let me know in advance and then I'll be thinking about it.

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Okay.

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I'm going to ask you next to a couple of questions.

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Okay, in 1947 you did choreography for a Broadway musical called Music in My Heart.

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Do you remember it?

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Yes, I do.

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It was done by Hazard Short, who was a very, very remarkable man.

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I worked with him before on something, I forget what.

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The Music Box Review.

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The Music Box Review, yes.

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He directed the Music Box Review.

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This show wasn't particularly successful and I wasn't especially interested in it.

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I never wanted to do Broadway shows.

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I never was interested in Broadway shows.

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It was stupid of me because Hazard Short said that if I would come and live in New York,

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I could do all the shows.

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But I couldn't go and live in New York and I didn't care that much about Broadway shows.

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The reviews of this particular show said your dances were the best things in it.

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I think they were.

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That's true.

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You did one called Beauty and the Beast.

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What was that like?

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What kind of a dance was it?

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I can't remember it very well.

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It's what the story, the fairy tale implies.

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And then you yourself performed in a number called Dance Arab.

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I'm maybe pronouncing it wrong.

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Dance Arab.

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That was nice, I think.

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It was sort of an interpretation of an oriental-ish kind of a dance.

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It wasn't Arabian at all.

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But it had an atmosphere of what you think of as the Orient.

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Of course, it's ridiculous because in the Orient there are 10,000 different kinds of

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dancing and they're all interesting.

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But at that time we sort of thought of something oriental as well, just wasn't on toe and

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it was not classical at all.

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I had never been around the world I guess then so I know now what all the dances in

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the Orient are because I've been around and studied them all and each one is so different

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from the other and they're all so interesting.

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But this was just a general interpretation of what we thought the Orient was like.

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It was a big success, that dance.

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But then it was censored.

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It was?

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And it was not the first time that things that you'd done had been censored.

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The first time you performed Frankie and Johnny in New York.

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Do you remember the censorship?

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Yes, I told you about that.

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I said it's because there were two lesbians in it.

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What was the question?

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I've forgotten already.

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I'll ask it again.

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We were talking about Frankie and Johnny getting itself banned or censored actually,

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censored in New York.

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Well, I think that was because there was a play there all about lesbians that had just

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been closed because they didn't like the subject matter and those people that were

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furious that their play was closed and I don't blame them and so they closed Frankie and

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Johnny because there were two lesbians in it who you wouldn't even know they were lesbians.

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They were just two girls, one dressed sort of in a mannish way and so that was the reason.

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It wasn't for all the other things in there that are kind of maybe they could censor but

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that was the reason.

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It was foolish really.

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There was a big blow up about it in the New York press with lots of people coming to your

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defense.

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Yeah, that's right.

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But you didn't seem to be, you're not quoted as getting terribly angry or exercised about

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it.

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No, they wanted to criticize it all right.

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I mean if you just did what people thought you ought to do you'd be awfully limited,

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you know.

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You couldn't talk about lesbians or prostitutes or thieves or robbers or anything.

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I think, well, it's limited.

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You've got to take from everything in life I think.

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Later Billy Sunday was also censored.

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They wanted you to change the name of one section of the dance from Wise and Foolish

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Virgins to Wise and Foolish Maidens.

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Oh, how silly.

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I'd forgotten that that's true.

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It's ridiculous.

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And they insisted that you remove the cross from the Ku Klux Klan costumes.

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Oh yes, I remember that too.

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I forgot that we had the Ku Klux Klan in there, yes.

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That was considered shocking to use that.

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And this is, Billy Sunday thought I was making fun of her husband too.

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I had a letter from her and I wrote her and I said, I'm not making fun of your husband

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at all.

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I'm just using actually his words.

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And I'd seen pictures of him and I'm using his movements.

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I'm not inventing anything new.

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This is what your husband did.

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So she calmed down.

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Actually Ruth, what do you think of Billy Sunday?

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Not the ballet, Billy Sunday the Evangelist.

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Oh, well I think he must have been fascinating because there's so many highfalutin speeches

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made about religion, you know, and the Catholic Church.

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And they talk way above everybody's head.

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And I think this was a wonderful idea to put it into slang so that everybody could understand

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what he was talking about, don't you?

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Yes.

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Yes.

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No, I think he had a terrific idea.

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And that was what attracted you to him as a subject for your ballet.

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The slang, the fact that he was...

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Yes, he was talking so people would understand what he was saying.

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Yes.

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Now, when you went to Paris in 1950 was when you began your association with the Champs-Elysees

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Ballet.

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Subsequently, that company became very important to you.

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Yes.

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Almost as though you were adopting it or that you wanted to adopt it.

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Well, no, it was a French company and they did my ballet Revenge, which they did very

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well and I was pleased that they were doing it.

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It was just supposed to run one or two performances and it ran every night for a month.

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So naturally I was pleased with the Champs-Elysees company.

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In fact, the Champs-Elysees company, you choreographed Revenge from what I have read and gave it

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to them because they were in danger of going under and you wanted to help preserve the

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company.

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That I don't remember.

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Maybe I did.

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Did you look upon it as a potential European base for you?

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No.

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The Ballet Russe and your association with Sergei Danum, that was a long, productive

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and difficult association.

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Well, he was the only one who had the guts to have a company.

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Diaghilev was gone and he was such a great man.

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Danum wasn't an artistic person at all, but he kept the company going.

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So we were all in that arm.

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You weren't performing.

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Danilov was in it, Freddie Franklin was in it.

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Everybody was in that company and did ballets for them.

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It was difficult because you couldn't get exactly what you wanted, but at least you

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got the ballet scene somehow.

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He traveled all over the country and it went on for a long time until he died.

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Now you had a period of time in the late 40s where you had licensed your ballets on a lend-lease

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program where they took the whole thing, the sets, the costumes, the choreography, the

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whole thing as a package.

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Do you remember anything about...

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Who took it?

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I don't remember.

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The Ballet Russe.

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Oh.

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It was apparently a new concept that Tom or you had come up with.

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If they were going to do a ballet of yours, they had to do it the way you had conceived

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of the production.

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Yes, of course.

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That was kind of a new idea at that time, wasn't it?

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I don't know.

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But I wanted my ballets done the way I did them.

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Of course, I didn't want somebody else coming in and staging them.

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There are very few people who can stage your ballets.

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Freddie Franklin can stage Frankie and Johnny for me and Larry Long now can do the Mary

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Widow and quite a few of Flitermaus he can do.

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I'd like to have other people do them, but they have to not do them in my way naturally.

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You say naturally, but I think looking at some of the correspondence, there was often

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some dispute, not about the choreography, but about changing sets and changing costumes

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and changing orchestrations for some of your ballets.

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Do you remember any of that?

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No, I don't.

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I can't imagine why they would change them.

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Who changed them?

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Well, there were some problems.

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There were problems over Love Song, for example, which was one of the ballets that the Ballet

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received.

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Maybe I didn't get the musical rights to it or something like that.

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You have to be very careful.

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When you do Carmina Burana, you go through all kinds of rigmarole.

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You need a lawyer to get the rights for that.

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And there's so much music.

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Like the Mary Widow, I had a lot of trouble with that.

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That had to be all negotiated through a lawyer.

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I can't do it even now, I don't think, in Europe.

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I can only do it here, if I'm not mistaken.

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Tom?

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He was very good at that.

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Yes, he was very clever at negotiating things like that.

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It was his suggestion that you do the Mary Widow?

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Yes, it was his idea, not mine.

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And your first reaction to the idea was?

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Oh, I thought it was too popular.

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I was too serious to do the Mary Widow.

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I had a lot of fun doing it once I got into it.

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But I thought that was just popular music.

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Actually, it's great music.

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It is terrific.

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And I was glad he suggested it because that's the most successful ballet I ever did.

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It's going every place now.

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Up to this day, he got a Peabody Award on television.

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And so I'm hoping that he suggested it.

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Now, when you started out with the idea of the Mary Widow,

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the very first time it was performed, you just did not the whole Mary Widow,

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but some segments called Belia.

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That's right.

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Well, no, I did it in London with a London Festival Ballet.

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And I didn't put Belia in.

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Belia wasn't in it.

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I think it was called, I can't remember exactly.

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But oh, I know what it was.

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I left out that whole middle section, which gives it the contrast,

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the Marsovian scene and all those dances that come in there.

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They're sort of demicaracter dances.

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And they make the ballet so it isn't nothing but just nothing but waltzes.

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And the Belia was a beautiful song, which we do at the end there.

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And it's a beautiful pas de deux.

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It has a great variety in it now.

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It wasn't nearly as good when I first did it in London.

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The ballet wasn't nearly as good.

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Now, I think it's a marvelous ballet.

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But it has everything.

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And it's done in the right proportions.

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And it's a wonderful part for the widow.

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It's a wonderful part for the man, Danilo.

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You kept working and working and working over the sets, especially.

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Well, those are difficult because the original version was just done

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with curtains that rise up and come down.

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Lots of theaters, we can't use the sets at all because the theaters

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haven't got enough space to lift them up.

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So it is difficult to do that.

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We sometimes have to do it without any sets at all.

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We can do it without any sets at all, just against a black curtain.

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But of course, it's more effective if it's done with the proper sets.

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The sets are really quite elaborate, the final sets.

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Yes.

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The curtains, they're all done by curtains that have to come up

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at a certain time and go down at a certain time.

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And that tangle has to be seen through a scrim.

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It's more effective that way.

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But to do that ballet properly is hard to do.

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You have to have the right theater and you have to have the right dancers.

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It's not an easy ballet to do, but it's a sort of a foolproof ballet.

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If you do it badly, it's still a success.

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You know what I mean?

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It's a lot less difficult to relate to than a ballet, say, for example,

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like Billy Sunday.

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Yes, because everybody knows the story of the Mary Woodle

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and there's nothing much to the story.

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It's just pretty dancing.

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There were a lot of legal hassles over the rights to the Mary Woodle.

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Yes.

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Tom was very relieved in one of the letters he writes to you.

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He says he's so relieved he was able to get all the legal rights

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that you needed and relieved that the ballet was a success

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because he felt responsible.

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Yes, he was.

250
00:15:22.860 --> 00:15:26.920
Was that the first time Tom had ever suggested a ballet to you?

251
00:15:27.560 --> 00:15:27.580
Yes.

252
00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:29.320
And the last?

253
00:15:30.060 --> 00:15:30.780
Mm-hmm.

254
00:15:32.140 --> 00:15:35.180
It was a good idea, a marvelous idea.

255
00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:42.920
So did Tom confine his suggestions mostly to the business end of your work?

256
00:15:42.920 --> 00:15:42.920


257
00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:48.220
Did you take part in much of the business end, Ruth?

258
00:15:48.580 --> 00:15:49.840
No, I didn't have to.

259
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:52.740
But now I have to and I find it extremely difficult.

260
00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:57.140
I hate doing business and I'm not good at it.

261
00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:00.660
Sure, I try to get Solovey to do things for me,

262
00:16:01.700 --> 00:16:03.960
but he can't always do it either.

263
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.320
He doesn't know much about dancing.

264
00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:11.340
It seems from reading the things that Tom has written

265
00:16:11.340 --> 00:16:17.140
that he was really, in addition to being your business manager,

266
00:16:17.900 --> 00:16:21.480
a real champion of your work.

267
00:16:22.880 --> 00:16:24.080
I don't know.

268
00:16:25.100 --> 00:16:27.200
Did he used to tell you his opinions?

269
00:16:28.020 --> 00:16:32.420
Well, he liked my work very much, yes, which helped me because I'm,

270
00:16:32.420 --> 00:16:35.180
you know, an artist is always doubtful.

271
00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:37.140
You never know whether it's good or bad or indifferent

272
00:16:37.140 --> 00:16:40.420
and somebody who tells you helps you a lot.

273
00:16:41.620 --> 00:16:46.800
It's very important to have somebody who eggs you on, so to speak,

274
00:16:47.880 --> 00:16:53.120
and promotes your career, which was important to Tom, too.

275
00:16:54.700 --> 00:16:55.800
You were a...

276
00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:02.740
Did he help you choose from among the offers that you got for performances?

277
00:17:02.740 --> 00:17:03.500
Yes, of course.

278
00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:07.260
I gather sometimes he could be difficult.

279
00:17:07.500 --> 00:17:07.840
Tom?

280
00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:08.920
Yes.

281
00:17:09.420 --> 00:17:10.300
I guess so.

282
00:17:10.860 --> 00:17:11.880
In negotiations?

283
00:17:12.560 --> 00:17:13.860
Oh, yes, I think so.

284
00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:19.940
And indeed, in dealing with some of the people with whom you worked,

285
00:17:20.180 --> 00:17:22.960
there is the story of someone, and I now forget who,

286
00:17:23.180 --> 00:17:25.080
just packing up and leaving Saint-Tropez

287
00:17:25.080 --> 00:17:30.280
because he and Tom would get into fierce arguments about some ballet or other.

288
00:17:30.300 --> 00:17:32.280
Was that a usual kind of occurrence?

289
00:17:32.620 --> 00:17:35.540
I don't remember that at all. I wonder who was it?

290
00:17:35.940 --> 00:17:38.640
If I don't know who it was, maybe I can tell you.

291
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:39.360
OK.

292
00:17:41.420 --> 00:17:43.360
I don't know who that was.

293
00:17:46.760 --> 00:17:48.940
You might change while you're...

294
00:17:48.940 --> 00:17:49.500
OK.

295
00:17:49.500 --> 00:17:49.680
OK.