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This is tape number four, it's 25 March 85, we're with Ruth Page in the Orange Room, the

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Chicago Room, and we will have a minute of bars and tones, this will be on channel one,

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and channel two will be the boom microphone, and we're with the Ablaam Productions.

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I thought it was...

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Ninety-Ninety.

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Ninety-Ninety.

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That's my phone.

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That's a pretty bouquet.

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I can smell myself.

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Yes. I love the smell of tangerines and roses too.

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Oh, this is where I'd like to sit.

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I'd have a lawsuit, I've always wanted to be in a lawsuit, but having been married

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to a lawyer, he always kept me out of lawsuits, and my present lawyer said, oh Ruth, you don't

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want a lawsuit, it would be ridiculous, it would cost you a lot of money, and what good

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would it do you?

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And he said, I'll just write them and tell them, they made a mistake. But that arabesque,

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it'll be her from now on, from posterity.

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I think that's awful.

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I do too.

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That's a very important picture of you, that perfect arabesque picture.

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It is. It is. As I say, it's the only time I've ever gotten to a perfect arabesque in

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my whole life, and the camera just happened to be there, but it is a perfect arabesque,

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and Chiquetti is the one who said that, and he's the great classic teacher.

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I know, and it was on your birthday cake and all.

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Oh yes, oh that's in the icebox, I forgot all about it. Want a piece of it?

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Maybe later.

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I'll get Carmen to bring it in here, they gave me the top of that cake, I forgot all

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about it, I had so many birthday cakes. But that with the arabesque on it is in the icebox.

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No. You don't want a piece now? You?

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Maybe after we're finished taping.

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Alright.

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I think, I really think that's awful.

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I do too. And Ron raised my, I didn't think, what's that, nothing ever, that's unimportant.

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He doesn't understand the importance of the picture.

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No. He doesn't understand the importance of the picture at all.

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Well.

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Maybe they can change it in the next edition. If he writes a very...

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I don't think there'll be an next edition. I think this is the book, this is it.

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It's a lovely book.

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Makes me angry.

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Me too, I was furious when I heard about it. I said, oh my god, the one good, really marvelous

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picture that I have, and somebody else gets credit for it.

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Who?

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Pesetsky, I think it was.

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You don't, I mean, that looks like you. It's hard, it doesn't look really, I suppose, an

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error. Anybody can.

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Yeah, so he didn't, the man who did the book didn't know me. And he found, I don't know

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where he got the picture, he must have gotten it at the Library of the Performing Arts in

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New York, because that's where all my pictures are. And it seems to be a lesson too, I should

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put my name on the back of the pictures before I let them out.

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You should.

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Because even I sometimes don't know who the picture's of and when it was taken and under

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what circumstances and who took the picture, you see. It's hard to remember after a certain

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number of years.

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Who did take that picture?

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Nicholas Murray, M-U-R-A-Y Murray, but he was pronounced Murray because he was Hungarian,

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I think. It was taken in New York, oh, I'd say about around 1492. But it was taken so

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long ago, I don't remember posing for it or anything. But his name is on it.

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And then when did Chiquetti see it?

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Oh, I have no idea about that.

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And you just heard that he said that is a perfect picture?

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No, no.

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He called you or he wrote you?

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No, I was studying with him.

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Oh, and you showed him the picture?

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Yeah. And he said that is a perfect arabesque. And for him to say that is so unusual, you know.

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Yes, he was a real perfectionist.

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Oh, my God. One finger would be out of place and that would spoil the whole thing, you see.

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But it is a perfect arabesque. Usually an arabesque goes as done like that. This is a

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fantazine, but anyway, it's... I haven't had any other pictures as good as that. I have

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one that's in a good arabesque, sort of different. But that one is perfect.

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It is a beautiful picture. Although there are a lot of pictures of you performing in

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costume and your ballets. And you always look wonderful and you look very different. I mean,

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did you spend a lot of time putting on makeup and changing the way? Because you look very

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different sometimes from ballet to ballet.

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Oh, sure. Not merely... I guess what I mean, Ruth, is not merely the costumes and the makeup.

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Of course, those would be different. But for example, there's a picture of you at the very

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cover, at the very front of this book that Mark Turbe filth is.

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Oh, that old book.

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Yeah. Oh, it's a wonderful one. That's a beautiful picture. Don't you think that's a beautiful picture?

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Yes, that is a good picture.

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That's marvelous. But the one in that was that one. Now, I think that to some degree, that

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almost looks like four different women.

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It does. Well, I got a wig on in one of them.

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It's the look on your face, too. An actress. You were a very good actress, as well as a very good dancer.

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Maybe. Who knows?

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Did you think about that consciously? Did you prepare yourself before you would go out on stage

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in the same way that actors do? Thinking about the role, the person that you were playing,

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the character you were playing, rather than the movements of the dance.

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Well, they went together, of course. You couldn't separate one from the other. They were dances.

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So you had to do it if you were a doll. You'd do it entirely differently from what if you were doing possessed.

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Of course.

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You see? So the idea behind the dance influences you on how you're supposed to look and what the costume is.

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Before you would go out on stage to dance whatever the role, whether it was Frankie and Johnny or possessed

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or porcelain doll, going back, or Park Avenue, Otelisk.

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Before you would go out on stage to dance, did you think yourself into the role the way some actors do?

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What would you do as you were waiting?

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You really get into the role. You think about what you're going to do, I suppose.

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I haven't danced for so long I don't remember.

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Well, you must think about the role before you do it.

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You choreographed a very, very interesting dance, a landmark really, for the 1933 World's Fair.

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Or no, right before. Wait, I'm going to get this right.

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What was it? What dance was it?

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La Diablas.

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Well, that was a ballet. That wasn't a dance.

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No.

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That was a whole big ballet.

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It was a whole big ballet.

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Wait, before we start talking about it.

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Based on the West Indies material, I got the idea for that in the two years in the French West Indies by Lafcadio Hearn.

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And I did it for Catherine Dunham.

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Well, the first time you did it, you did it yourself. It was 1933.

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That's right.

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This was the most unusual kind of ballet for its time.

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Yes, it was. All black.

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All black except for you. And ultimately all black.

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And the story of the ballet.

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Oh, it was about a sort of a witch. Not really a witch, but a person of great...

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And somebody who was very different, who came down the mountains and lured people after her.

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She was really quite something. A she-devil.

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Yes. It's Diablas. But they call it Diablas.

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I got the idea entirely from Lafcadio Hearn from his two years in the French West Indies.

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It was a very interesting book.

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And the music was written by William Grant.

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William Grant still. Yes, he was black.

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Which came first? You got the idea. And then you said, from reading Lafcadio Hearn.

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And then you said, I'm going to commission some original music for this.

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And went to William Grant still.

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He was the best black composer that I knew.

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You felt because it was a black subject it ought to be.

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Well, not necessarily, but I thought it would be nice to have a black composer.

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And then where did you get the dancers from?

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I went down to the South Side all summer and had tryouts and picked up all these black people.

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A lot of them hadn't even danced before.

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And that's where I got the company.

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I picked out the ones that I thought had talent.

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It wasn't hard dancing in it, but they had to look beautiful.

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And they had to move in a certain way.

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And I remember we had long fishing poles at the beginning for the scenery.

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But I went down there every day all summer. It was an awful job.

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But I did it.

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It was something new. You were aware that you were creating something new.

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And was it exciting for you? Did you say, I'm going to try something really radically different here?

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Yes, it was very exciting for me.

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I've always liked working with black people.

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And creating new things. I've always liked that.

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Now the first time that was danced, it was danced at the Century of Progress in the Auditorium Theatre, actually.

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And most of the dancing at the Century of Progress had been thus far.

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Things like Sally Rand and her fans.

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And in reading about it, this was a really serious attempt to bring some very good dance.

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I have to say, Chicago can also produce some excellent dance.

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And to bring that to the Century of Progress.

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Do you remember how the audience?

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They liked it. That's why the opera asked me to do it over at the opera.

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And I said, it's impossible. I just can't go down there and get all those dancers together again.

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And I said, but Kevin Dunham, I think she might be able to do it.

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And she did. She put it all together again.

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And we did it at the opera.

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And she danced.

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And she danced the lead role.

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She's a very intelligent dancer.

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Can you remember any ways in which her interpretation of the role was different from yours?

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No, of course not.

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Too long ago.

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Well, no, I say it's...

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I don't think you say interpret a role. You do it as a choreographer.

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Once it's done, no question of interpreting it.

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I don't think...

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That same year,

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you did...

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When you did that performance, when Catherine Dunham did that for the opera,

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also on that same bill, I'm trying to find it in I can't,

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there was another...

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It seems as though that year you went from Ravigna to...

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You were just going, going, going, going, going all the time.

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In fact, through most of the 30s,

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it seems as though you were performing and choreographing

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and putting the Ravigna season together

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and then racing to do the Chicago opera season and putting that together.

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You were just going, going, going all the time.

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Well, yes, you have to, in the days when you can go,

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do it while you still can.

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Seems to me you still do.

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You do.

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In 1935 was when you launched, for the first time,

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a ballet company that had your own name.

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The Ruth Page Ballets.

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The first program was made up of four ballets.

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You did it at the Studebaker Theater.

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One of them was Love Song.

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Oh, yes, that was a...

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What was Love Song?

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Well, it was put together by...

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I mean, I put the music together from Schubert, his love songs.

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That's why I called it Love Song.

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There was one of them, Dubisty Rue, and I forget the names of all of them.

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And I put them together and it started out...

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I was all in black.

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I was sort of a tragic figure.

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And Bensley was in it and he...

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We did a pas de deux together,

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and then this flirtatious girl came in, took him away.

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And then we did the African, who did that role?

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But it was a very simple idea.

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But that's all it was to it.

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It was a nice ballet, I think.

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I think it was one of my best ballets.

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I remember it very well.

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There was a group in red, in sort of serice color,

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and a group in green, girls.

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And then...

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It was the first time it was put together like a modern thing.

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It wasn't put together like a ballet.

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And then Walter Cameron came on with two boys and two girls.

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They were all dressed in salmon pink,

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and they sort of did like a divertissement in there,

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which was very charming.

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I remember Walter was awfully attractive in it.

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I forget how it ended.

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I think it ended me alone again at the end.

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It was a very sad ballet.

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Very sad.

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And it was a big success.

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It was...

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Tom's idea or yours to found that that's the first time

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there was ever anything called the Ruth Page Ballet.

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And then subsequently there have been lots of other companies

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that have had your name in them.

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But that was the very first that in 1935.

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I didn't remember that.

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Was it a milestone for you?

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Was it something you'd always wanted to have your own ballet company?

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Oh, I think everybody would like to have their own ballet company.

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Certainly.

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So it's much easier if you have your own.

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Tom was instrumental in setting it up.

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00:16:09.460 --> 00:16:10.020
Yes.

238
00:16:12.620 --> 00:16:17.360
He drew all the contracts and arranged all the financial things too?

239
00:16:18.680 --> 00:16:21.160
We made money out of it.

240
00:16:21.940 --> 00:16:23.600
We had the opera...

241
00:16:24.160 --> 00:16:25.260
I told you all this.

242
00:16:25.560 --> 00:16:28.240
We had the opera until Christmas.

243
00:16:28.460 --> 00:16:29.820
And we had the Nutcracker.

244
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:31.620
That started...

245
00:16:31.620 --> 00:16:33.120
Well, the opera didn't go until Christmas.

246
00:16:33.460 --> 00:16:34.580
It went for about...

247
00:16:34.580 --> 00:16:37.420
We had at least six to eight weeks work with the opera.

248
00:16:37.680 --> 00:16:41.160
Then we had the Nutcracker for...

249
00:16:41.900 --> 00:16:44.600
Well, about six weeks also it took.

250
00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:47.900
And then we did these tours from coast to coast

251
00:16:47.900 --> 00:16:50.020
with Kurt Weinhold in New York.

252
00:16:51.140 --> 00:16:54.440
And every year we did the same thing, so we didn't need any money.

253
00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:56.720
Paid for itself.

254
00:16:57.520 --> 00:16:58.040
That was good.

255
00:16:58.300 --> 00:16:58.620
Yes.

256
00:16:58.900 --> 00:17:01.300
Because now if you have a company, it costs a fortune.

257
00:17:02.180 --> 00:17:04.600
Very few people can afford to have their own company.

258
00:17:05.300 --> 00:17:08.300
Unless they're not supported by the state here like they are in Europe.

259
00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:09.680
Do you think they ought to be?

260
00:17:09.860 --> 00:17:10.280
No.

261
00:17:10.940 --> 00:17:12.620
I think you should keep the government out of it.

262
00:17:12.620 --> 00:17:13.400
They don't know anything.

263
00:17:14.380 --> 00:17:16.060
And I think it's better...

264
00:17:16.060 --> 00:17:18.340
I believe in private enterprise. It's much better.

265
00:17:19.340 --> 00:17:22.700
Do you think that it should be private philanthropic groups

266
00:17:22.700 --> 00:17:26.440
or do you believe that ballet, that by and large dance companies

267
00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:28.260
ought to be able to pay their own way?

268
00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:31.260
Well, I think now they can't pay their own way.

269
00:17:31.560 --> 00:17:35.380
So you have to find people that will support it for you.

270
00:17:35.520 --> 00:17:36.580
There are plenty of them.

271
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:40.200
Well, hard to find.

272
00:17:43.420 --> 00:17:48.620
Another opera, 1934, that you choreographed for the Chicago Civic Opera

273
00:17:48.620 --> 00:17:51.000
was an opera called Gold Standard.

274
00:17:51.600 --> 00:17:53.560
Oh, that was a ballet. That wasn't an opera.

275
00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:54.960
Oh, it was a ballet. I'm sorry.

276
00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:57.320
It was... you did it for the Chicago Civic Opera.

277
00:17:57.580 --> 00:17:59.320
It was an evening...

278
00:17:59.320 --> 00:18:01.800
Yes, it was music by Jackie Bear.

279
00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:04.980
It was charming music. It was called the Divietismo, I think.

280
00:18:05.600 --> 00:18:07.300
And I just did a ballet to it.

281
00:18:07.300 --> 00:18:09.080
It was a short ballet, but very attractive.

282
00:18:09.080 --> 00:18:11.080
I remember the costumes very well.

283
00:18:11.080 --> 00:18:15.740
They were sort of big hats and it was a cute little ballet.

284
00:18:15.760 --> 00:18:16.620
Nothing special.

285
00:18:17.040 --> 00:18:18.940
Did it have a story to it, Gold Standard?

286
00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:23.080
Yes, I don't remember the story, but it did have a story to it.

287
00:18:24.100 --> 00:18:26.460
Something with going on the Gold Standard or something?

288
00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:34.080
No, it was a girl who was attracted to somebody because he had money.

289
00:18:35.260 --> 00:18:35.740
Ah.

290
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:39.580
The traction was the money.

291
00:18:41.580 --> 00:18:42.700
An old story.

292
00:18:43.080 --> 00:18:44.040
Same old story.

293
00:18:46.180 --> 00:18:46.180


294
00:18:47.860 --> 00:18:52.540
Okay. In that same year, a new story, a new kind of way to do a ballet.

295
00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:55.400
That was your 1934 one. You did Hear Ye, Hear Ye.

296
00:18:55.660 --> 00:19:00.260
Oh, yes. That was the first ballet that Aaron Copland ever got a commission for.

297
00:19:00.360 --> 00:19:02.880
I thought he was talented, so I commissioned him to do it.

298
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.220
We only did it a few times.

299
00:19:04.220 --> 00:19:07.120
I wish we'd done it more because I think it was a good ballet.

300
00:19:08.540 --> 00:19:10.260
Remisov, I remember, did the costumes.

301
00:19:10.420 --> 00:19:19.360
It was a story that's been used a lot since about witnesses that tell the same story in a different way.

302
00:19:20.060 --> 00:19:28.220
It was told by a honeymoon couple and it was told by an Arabian mystic.

303
00:19:28.940 --> 00:19:32.940
It wasn't Arabian. He was a mystic, a Hindu mystic, I think it was.

304
00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:38.940
Then it was told also in the manner of the militant idealist. That was Bentley Stone.

305
00:19:39.340 --> 00:19:44.720
He was Maris in that part. And this girl sort of torn between the different ones.

306
00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:49.480
And it told the story of really a murder, a murder that had taken place in a nightclub, right?

307
00:19:49.620 --> 00:19:49.620


308
00:19:50.180 --> 00:19:50.580
Okay.

309
00:19:50.840 --> 00:19:51.500
We have to get to that.

310
00:19:51.620 --> 00:19:52.500
Oh, okay. Well, wait.

311
00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:56.940
Actually, I got that story. I told the wrong story. That Hear Ye, Hear Ye.

312
00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:02.060
I told the story of American Pattern, but Hear Ye, Hear Ye was sort of the same story.

313
00:20:02.060 --> 00:20:05.580
Well, there were three different people. No, you've got it pretty right.

314
00:20:06.540 --> 00:20:09.820
Three different people, three eyewitnesses tell different stories.

315
00:20:10.060 --> 00:20:10.360
Yeah.

316
00:20:11.220 --> 00:20:16.760
And it... I have more about it.