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Do you have the bars you need or what?

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We're rolling and recording.

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We are rolling and recording.

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Very good.

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We were talking about the performance that you saw of the Russian ballet that was very

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socially correct.

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It was called the Footballer and there was a lot of dancing around and at the end the

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prima ballerina came in riding on a tractor.

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It was sort of dance in the workers' democracy.

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What do you remember about that?

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I just remember that Laz came in on a tractor but it was sort of unexpected to see that

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in Russia because they're so very classical.

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I don't know why they were doing that.

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I suppose they were trying to be modern.

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They didn't want people just to think they did nothing but swan-like and all those classical

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ballets.

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I suppose that was the reason.

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I don't know.

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It doesn't seem from reading the things that you've written about that particular trip

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to Russia that you felt in any sense that you were going to your spiritual home, the

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home after all that Pavlova and classical ballet really one associates with Russia.

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Well Pavlova left there when she was no age at all and I don't think she ever went back

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to Russia.

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I think you're right.

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I guess I meant the tradition.

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Did you feel that you were by that time into creating a tradition of your own?

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Yes, I suppose so.

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But Russia didn't mean very much to me.

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I was interested in it and I'm always interested in any country no matter what they're doing.

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But Russia was not especially more interested in any place else.

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On the trip back from Russia, on the trip out to Russia, I'm sorry on the boat, you

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met for the first time I think possibly you had seen him dance before, Harold Kreutzberg.

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And I guess that was an important job.

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Well, yes, certainly he was a very, very, I think he was a genius and charming, charming

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person.

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We always had a lot of fun together.

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He loved to laugh.

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We laughed a lot and he didn't take anything very seriously but when he did the three mad

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figures that was his best dance I think they were very serious.

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And I was very flattered when he asked me to dance with him.

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I was thrilled to death.

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I enjoyed dancing with him.

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We did, we sort of created the dances together, you know, what you usually do with your partner.

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It's hard to say where one begins.

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You sort of do it together.

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And I remember we did a country dance and we did a bacchanal which was very, very modern

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we thought, very up to date.

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An Arabian dance that was just, we always called it Arabian Nuts.

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But it was Arabian Nights.

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And I thought we did one or two or three others.

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I don't remember what they were.

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You did a dance called Tropic, didn't you?

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Yeah, that was a solo.

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That was my most successful dance.

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Your most successful dance?

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Mm-hmm.

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Why do you say that?

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Well, the audience liked it and the critics liked it.

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Everybody liked it.

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It was interesting, unusual.

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You did it dressed in a mask.

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I had a mask on, yes.

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And what was, did it have a story or was it a mood?

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No, it was just trying to, the mood of the Tropic, sort of heavy and to the ground.

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It wasn't jumping or anything.

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It was slow moving, very, no, like the mood of the Tropic.

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You think of the hot countries and I think that, I don't know why it was successful,

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but it was.

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Sexy? Was it sexy?

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Was it sexy?

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I know that you performed it at the Rainbow Room and I wonder if it was a kind of an exotic

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It was very exotic.

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I don't know if it was sexy.

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It was very exotic, yes.

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About Kreutzberg, there are some photographs of him here as I was looking at them myself.

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I was struck by how he's almost scary looking.

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You know, the bald head, Ruth.

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It was Max Reinhardt who had him shave his head.

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He shaved it, something that Max Reinhardt was doing.

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And everybody liked it so much that he just kept it that way.

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Wilkins was his pianist.

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He went every place with him, did all his business for him and everything.

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And these look exactly like Kreutzberg.

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This is one of his dances.

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I forget which one.

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Is this all about Kreutzberg?

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It's just a little piece about Kreutzberg.

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He seems to have made an enormous influence on you, Ruth.

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You say the two major influences on your dancing were Pavlova and Kreutzberg.

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Well, no, I said that they were the two that I thought were the greatest dancers

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that I'd ever been with.

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But I don't know how they influenced me.

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Pavlova influenced everybody because she was so great.

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And everybody wanted to dance because she inspired them.

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All my generation of dancers.

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She was the inspiration for all of us.

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And Kreutzberg was the first of the real modern dancers that we'd ever seen.

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And he brought something very new to the dance, you know.

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He wasn't classical at all.

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He had had no classical training?

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No, I don't think he had any training at all.

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He just danced.

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He didn't have any training.

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I think maybe he took a couple of lessons from Mary Wigman, but I'm not even sure of that.

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She was the big influence in Germany.

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She was the one who started the old modern dance trend.

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And the kind of dancing that he did, Ruth,

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I know that there was one time in Germany when you went to see him dancing on the steps of a church.

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Steps of a church?

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On the steps of the cathedral.

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In Salzburg.

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Oh, I don't remember that.

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You don't?

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No, he lived in Salzburg. I know that.

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What was there about his dancing?

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I mean, which of his dances do you remember that?

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I told you the three mad figures were the most interesting.

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I mean, sort of the way he moved or the choreography, if you could describe it for us in a way that...

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Well, it's hard to put dance into words, you know.

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I could get up and dance it for you.

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That'd be okay.

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But he did a lot of running in different kinds of ways, you know.

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And moved very gracefully, again I use that word, and dramatically also.

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And he was very expressive.

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And well, that picture that's in the hall there, that's of Kreuzberg in the three mad figures.

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There were three of them. This was one of them.

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But the bacchanal we did was not like an ordinary bacchanal that you'd expect.

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It was very modern. It's hard to describe it.

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There's a picture of it in there. You can look at the picture of it.

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I think there's one in there.

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It's not the kind of bacchanal that you would expect because it's not...

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Freestyle.

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Popovic did a wonderful bacchanal, which was really what you'd expect a bacchanal to be, just skipping around.

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It's just marvelous in it, I must say.

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But this was more slower, more abstract?

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No, it was falling to the floor.

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People didn't do it. They do it all the time now, roll around.

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That was the first time people started falling on the floor and getting up.

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It was jerky instead of just graceful. It wasn't very graceful, it was jerky.

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What you'd think of as much more modern.

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And the kind of music that...

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I think Wilkins wrote the music for it, if I'm not mistaken.

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Wilkins wrote most of Kreuzberg's music.

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How would you describe the music? It was modern?

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It followed the dance, exactly like the dance.

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It was easy to dance to because Wilkins knew what Kreuzberg was doing, knew what we were doing,

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and wrote music that seemed to fit the dance. It was easy to dance to.

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But not melodic?

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Well, some of it was.

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He seems to have been an almost hypnotic looking figure, all the photographs of Kreuzberg in costume on stage.

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You were drawn to him, even in the photographs that you see of him when he's just standing.

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Yes, he did draw everybody to him.

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You wanted to look at him and see what he was going to do. He was so interesting.

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So unusual, he was an unusual person.

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How did he move? When you say he moved in sort of a jerky fashion?

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Sometimes for the dances, just for the back and out.

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No, it was mostly very smooth and flowing. It's awfully hard to describe. You've never seen him?

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No, I've seen him, but it was much later when he came back for Coming of Burana.

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Oh, he didn't do anything in that. He was the death figure. So he didn't do anything in that.

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So there's no way to see, really?

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No, it's a shame there are no films of him. Maybe there are in Germany, maybe there are some in New York.

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But I don't have any films of Kreuzberg. I have pictures of him, but no films at all.

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I don't think there are very many films, if any at all.

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That's why it's sort of important to remember, because what you remember will be what people really know of him.

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It's got to be from the pictures, from the photographs. Well, it's too bad.

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Did he ever try to... What was his attitude toward you, Ruth? Did he ever try to teach you anything? Did he have a philosophy?

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Oh, no, he wasn't a teacher at all. No.

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He gave lessons around, but people just followed along after him and tried to do what he was doing.

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And some of them succeeded and some didn't. They were very unusual lessons.

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As you know, in ballet, you teach everything so scientifically and so correctly, it can only be done one way.

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But he could interpret it in different ways. But everybody tried to do what he was doing.

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And did he have a philosophy about dance at all?

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No, no, no, no. He wasn't cerebral at all. Cerebral, I guess you pronounce it.

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He didn't think about it then. He just did it.

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No, that's right.

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Was he a very emotional kind of person?

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He was very amusing. As I say, he loved to laugh. I don't know whether you'd call him emotional or not.

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I never thought about that. Maybe he was. I don't know.

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Not tempestuous, in any case, just a sort of...

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No, he was a wonderful friend. Lots of fun to be with. Adored being with him.

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We went to Japan together, did dance there together.

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Yes, you did. In...

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28, wasn't it? No, was it 28 or 34? I think I went with him in 34.

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May of 1934.

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That's right.

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That was your second trip to Japan. And you found the country somewhat changed.

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Well, there were no more rickshaws. When I first went there were rickshaws around.

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In 1934, there wasn't a rickshaw left.

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And it had become rather industrialized, Japan, too. Americanized.

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Yes, it became Americanized. That's right.

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And on that trip to Japan, you did some very interesting dances.

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I'm trying to...

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Well, actually, let's get back, because it's a...

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Some of the dances, he did his three mad figures, but you did expanding universe and figure in space.

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We did all our regular repertoire there.

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Everything we did in our repertoire, we did in Japan.

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We had a limited repertoire. It wasn't an enormous repertoire.

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It was...

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You said a little bit about being his partner and you're making up the dances together.

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How would that work? How did you do it? Did you stand in front of a mirror or what?

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Or play music first or discuss it?

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Well, Wilkins would sort of write the music as he saw us doing movements, you see.

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And it's awfully hard to put all these things into words.

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There's nothing to talk about. You do it.

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So it's awfully hard to say, but Wilkins wrote the music along while we were composing the dances.

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And you would be in a studio somewhere with a mirror and just working and moving together?

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Yes.

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And would you work on the same dance over and over and over for a very long time?

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Or did they come fairly easily and quickly once they came?

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Well, I don't know what you call easily and quickly.

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We didn't... No, we did them quickly, I think. More quickly.

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In a few weeks' time rather than months and months.

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Oh, yes.

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Somebody has said of you by the time you got into the 1930s, you were up to your ears in your modern period, Ruth.

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Oh, that's interesting.

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How would you describe your modern period?

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Well, I'm trying to remember what I did in 1930, did you say?

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1933. Let's say 1933.

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That's when you were doing...

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All the sack dances and this and that.

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Yes, I did those Noguchi sack dances. Those were interesting.

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Those were very modern. I suppose you used to call them very modern.

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And what else was I doing at that time? I did a dance called Possessed.

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I remember that with music by Villa-Lobos, which was somebody who was being possessed.

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It was a short dance, but very interesting dance, I think.

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I did all those abstract dances. I had two sticks that I used.

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And the sacks and the sticks and the elastic strings, which were attached here and here and here.

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And you could move them in all kinds of interesting ways.

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Anybody ever done dances dressed in sacks or with sticks?

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I don't think so. Not that I know of.

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They were copied very much later on, but I don't think at that time anybody had ever done any that I know of.

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And the idea for the sack, the Noguchi sack... Are we changing cassettes?

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Yeah, I think we're...

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Okay, why don't we do it?

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Oh, okay, before we... Yes, please.

236
00:16:14.800 --> 00:16:18.280
Are you uncomfortable in that chair? Would you rather have a different chair?

237
00:16:18.300 --> 00:16:18.980
No, that's all right.

238
00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:19.560
Is it wrong?

239
00:16:20.160 --> 00:16:22.480
I wouldn't mind having a pillow in the back of me.

240
00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:23.160
Oh, okay.

241
00:16:23.160 --> 00:16:27.000
Those little pillows that are in the living room are uncomfortable in this chair.

242
00:16:27.100 --> 00:16:28.640
Oh, the little pillows that are in the living room?

243
00:16:28.660 --> 00:16:30.180
There's some little fur pillows.

244
00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:30.800
All right.

245
00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:32.140
Okay.

246
00:16:33.140 --> 00:16:33.800
That I...

247
00:16:33.800 --> 00:16:35.360
I thought you needed to sit quietly.

248
00:16:35.760 --> 00:16:37.000
No, you don't need to sit quietly.

249
00:16:37.180 --> 00:16:38.080
It's just that you were moving.

250
00:16:39.760 --> 00:16:41.980
You don't want to go in? Want some more tea?

251
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:43.260
I would like some.

252
00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:46.600
Could you tell Carmen to bring us some more tea?

253
00:16:46.820 --> 00:16:50.660
Byron, maybe you could open the door and ask Carmen if we might have a bit more tea, please.

254
00:16:50.660 --> 00:16:51.720
Oh, wait a minute, Ruth.

255
00:16:51.900 --> 00:16:52.720
There's a pot here.

256
00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:53.240
Oh.

257
00:16:53.540 --> 00:16:54.640
Wait, wait, never mind, never mind.

258
00:16:55.340 --> 00:16:56.280
I'm going to try it in the hot.

259
00:16:57.960 --> 00:16:58.720
Just put it on.

260
00:16:59.240 --> 00:16:59.600
Well...

261
00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:00.240
Where's your cup?

262
00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:00.920
I don't know.

263
00:17:01.680 --> 00:17:02.300
Would you like some tea?

264
00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:03.620
Her cup is up there.

265
00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:05.440
This is Ruth's cup here.

266
00:17:05.600 --> 00:17:06.840
Just give me that little white one.

267
00:17:07.080 --> 00:17:07.400
This one?