WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.620 --> 00:00:11.700 This is tape number 6, it's 18 March 85, with Ruth Page, the FM for TNT Productions. 2 00:00:11.720 --> 00:00:16.720 This will be audio on channel 2, and tone on channel 2, and boom on channel 1. 3 00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:36.560 It's funny how things come back to you when you start talking about it. 4 00:00:36.800 --> 00:00:36.840 Yeah. 5 00:00:38.780 --> 00:00:39.540 It's good. 6 00:00:40.860 --> 00:00:43.820 Well, it's fun, you know, when you start, it's fun to remember, right? 7 00:00:47.780 --> 00:00:47.780 8 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:52.520 Zoom. 9 00:00:58.000 --> 00:00:58.520 Yes? 10 00:00:59.100 --> 00:00:59.720 Yes. 11 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:00.280 12 00:01:01.360 --> 00:01:05.540 Okay, so you and Tom were married, and you went off on your honeymoon. 13 00:01:05.540 --> 00:01:06.140 Where'd you go? 14 00:01:06.660 --> 00:01:08.020 We went to Monte Carlo. 15 00:01:08.520 --> 00:01:08.900 Yeah. 16 00:01:10.080 --> 00:01:13.180 And while you were in Monte Carlo... 17 00:01:13.180 --> 00:01:14.380 Oh, yes, that's right. 18 00:01:14.380 --> 00:01:20.100 When I was in Monte Carlo, I had a wire from Buenos Aires, from the Colonna Opera, 19 00:01:20.880 --> 00:01:23.040 inviting me to come there to do Cocteau. 20 00:01:24.180 --> 00:01:29.900 And Cocteau is the only thing that I ever wanted, ballet that I ever wanted to do, 21 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:30.940 that I didn't choreograph. 22 00:01:30.980 --> 00:01:35.140 I was dying to do it, and I always said I'd go to the ends of the world to do it. 23 00:01:35.700 --> 00:01:39.100 So I told Tom, I said, I'm going to go to Buenos Aires. 24 00:01:39.240 --> 00:01:40.200 He said, all right. 25 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:44.840 So he went home alone from his honeymoon, and he sent Mother over. 26 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:48.000 He thought I was too young to be going around alone. 27 00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:54.180 So Mother came over, and I went to Buenos Aires. 28 00:01:54.520 --> 00:01:55.780 And I did the Cocteau. 29 00:01:56.160 --> 00:02:00.440 I came back to Chicago for one day, and then I went to Buenos Aires, 30 00:02:00.460 --> 00:02:02.140 and I did Cocteau, and then I came home. 31 00:02:02.440 --> 00:02:03.560 That was my honeymoon. 32 00:02:05.080 --> 00:02:08.620 And when you came home, Tom, didn't he, wasn't angry or upset? 33 00:02:08.620 --> 00:02:10.640 No, he was thrilled to see me. 34 00:02:13.500 --> 00:02:15.500 You said everyone was saying, oh, his marriage. 35 00:02:15.500 --> 00:02:17.700 Well, everybody said that marriage would never work. 36 00:02:17.700 --> 00:02:22.140 She left him on his honeymoon, and it lasted until he died, of course. 37 00:02:22.860 --> 00:02:24.980 Until 1969? It was a long time? 38 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:26.800 Yes, it is. It was a long marriage. 39 00:02:27.060 --> 00:02:28.040 So what made it work? 40 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.580 Well, he was so marvelous. That's what made it work. 41 00:02:31.580 --> 00:02:35.540 I guess he loved me, I think, very much. 42 00:02:36.600 --> 00:02:38.240 And so it just went fine. 43 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:40.000 He liked you, too. 44 00:02:40.440 --> 00:02:42.900 Yes. That's important. 45 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:43.920 Yes. 46 00:02:44.320 --> 00:02:46.180 You have to like somebody as well as love them. 47 00:02:46.380 --> 00:02:48.280 I think liking is more important than loving. 48 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:49.660 Don't you? 49 00:02:49.860 --> 00:02:50.560 Yes, I do. 50 00:02:50.760 --> 00:02:51.940 You have to like somebody. 51 00:02:52.440 --> 00:02:54.240 We always liked each other. 52 00:02:55.200 --> 00:02:56.540 And loved each other, too. 53 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:59.140 I have all my letters to him and all his letters to me. 54 00:02:59.140 --> 00:03:01.000 They're very lovey-dovey. 55 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:04.980 You wrote often when you were separated. 56 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:06.220 Oh, yes, of course. 57 00:03:07.720 --> 00:03:09.940 People don't write letters anymore. It's a dead art. 58 00:03:10.200 --> 00:03:11.400 That's right. It certainly is. 59 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:13.300 Nobody writes letters anymore. You telephone. 60 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:16.500 It's a shame, I think. 61 00:03:16.980 --> 00:03:21.040 Because a letter forces you to think about what it is you really have to say. 62 00:03:21.580 --> 00:03:24.640 Andy Winnick is trying to get together a book of all my letters, 63 00:03:25.180 --> 00:03:26.300 the letters that I received. 64 00:03:26.300 --> 00:03:28.100 I must say they're fascinating. 65 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:31.960 I read some of them. They're terribly, terribly interesting. 66 00:03:33.060 --> 00:03:35.800 When did you find the time to write so many letters, 67 00:03:36.020 --> 00:03:38.020 and to write in your diaries, and to write reminiscences? 68 00:03:38.020 --> 00:03:39.720 I didn't write diaries then at all. 69 00:03:39.820 --> 00:03:41.120 I just wrote letters. 70 00:03:41.720 --> 00:03:45.060 I don't write anything in my diary that takes ten seconds a day. 71 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:48.660 It's that. I don't write anything except factual things. 72 00:03:49.900 --> 00:03:51.640 But there are other things that you've written, 73 00:03:52.160 --> 00:03:53.320 reminiscences, other things. 74 00:03:53.320 --> 00:03:56.220 Oh yes, I'm sort of a... I always write. 75 00:03:56.620 --> 00:03:57.940 I found some the other day. 76 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:00.300 There's a fact this big that makes a wonderful book. 77 00:04:00.340 --> 00:04:02.960 I read them. They sounded awfully interesting. 78 00:04:03.480 --> 00:04:05.040 I just wrote them when I felt like it. 79 00:04:06.140 --> 00:04:08.340 Sheila had them to me the other day and said, 80 00:04:09.200 --> 00:04:10.400 I said, what is that, Sheila? 81 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:13.580 She said, those are all the things that you've written in the last two years. 82 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:15.200 I said, can I read them? 83 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:17.100 She said, yes, take them. 84 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:20.400 So I did. They're making a marvelous book, a sequel to Page by Page. 85 00:04:20.520 --> 00:04:21.640 They're awfully interesting. 86 00:04:21.640 --> 00:04:23.360 If I do say so myself. 87 00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:25.740 What do you write about? What were they about, the things you wrote? 88 00:04:25.760 --> 00:04:28.440 Anything, everything, different things. 89 00:04:29.820 --> 00:04:31.440 They don't follow any... 90 00:04:31.440 --> 00:04:34.720 I never did write a biography, autobiography, never. 91 00:04:35.320 --> 00:04:38.420 These are just things that happened to me that interested me. 92 00:04:39.140 --> 00:04:40.200 And that you think about. 93 00:04:40.940 --> 00:04:45.400 You're writing sort of as almost like a stream of consciousness flows sometimes. 94 00:04:46.340 --> 00:04:49.000 It's subjects that you think... 95 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.760 It's reminiscences and then what you think about them and then they sort of flow. 96 00:04:53.200 --> 00:04:55.760 It's a very good, natural kind of writing talent. 97 00:04:55.760 --> 00:04:57.000 It's very natural, yes. 98 00:04:58.380 --> 00:04:59.940 You don't want to be a writer. 99 00:05:00.400 --> 00:05:02.480 No, I'm not a writer at all. 100 00:05:04.660 --> 00:05:07.440 They're kind of interesting because the subject matter is interesting, 101 00:05:07.460 --> 00:05:10.320 but I'm not a writer, a professional writer at all. 102 00:05:10.940 --> 00:05:11.900 I never learned to write. 103 00:05:11.980 --> 00:05:14.600 As you know, I never went to school, so I never learned to write. 104 00:05:15.780 --> 00:05:20.060 It doesn't seem to me as though a lack of a great deal of formal schooling, 105 00:05:20.100 --> 00:05:23.460 a university education, has been any real... 106 00:05:23.460 --> 00:05:25.480 that you've ever missed it very much. 107 00:05:25.500 --> 00:05:27.080 It seems as though you've educated yourself. 108 00:05:27.080 --> 00:05:29.620 Well, I do miss it because I don't know much about history. 109 00:05:30.780 --> 00:05:35.080 When I talk to my husband, who's really educated, he knows everything. 110 00:05:35.140 --> 00:05:40.100 I have to ask him when I want to know what Napoleon did at such a time, 111 00:05:40.260 --> 00:05:42.500 where he had breakfast and whatnot. 112 00:05:42.500 --> 00:05:44.980 And that's what he can always tell me. 113 00:05:46.180 --> 00:05:50.080 But other than that, you haven't really missed it much. 114 00:05:50.200 --> 00:05:53.120 I mean, I don't think you've ever felt at a disadvantage in the world. 115 00:05:54.740 --> 00:05:56.160 Well, maybe not. I don't know. 116 00:05:57.540 --> 00:05:59.740 I think I'd have done better if I had been educated. 117 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:02.720 How? What would you have done better at? 118 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:05.700 Well, lots of things. I don't know. 119 00:06:06.640 --> 00:06:08.740 I'd do the slide lectures better, probably. 120 00:06:11.740 --> 00:06:13.900 I don't know. It's always easy to say. 121 00:06:14.060 --> 00:06:16.460 It strikes me that you're a woman of few regrets. 122 00:06:18.200 --> 00:06:18.940 Am I right? 123 00:06:20.180 --> 00:06:21.220 Oh, I don't know. 124 00:06:22.340 --> 00:06:26.680 I regret not doing a lot of things, yes. 125 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:29.680 Hazard Short said if I would come and live in New York, 126 00:06:30.080 --> 00:06:32.000 I could do all his shows. 127 00:06:33.320 --> 00:06:34.580 And I should have gone. 128 00:06:35.820 --> 00:06:37.400 Then Tom would have had to come. 129 00:06:38.780 --> 00:06:40.180 Tell about that now. 130 00:06:40.640 --> 00:06:44.520 You always kept thinking that Tom was going to be willing to move to New York. 131 00:06:44.840 --> 00:06:47.680 He wasn't. I knew he didn't want to move to New York. 132 00:06:48.760 --> 00:06:51.000 And while I'd have liked to have done all of Hazard Short's shows, 133 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:54.480 he was a marvelous person and he believed in me. 134 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:55.620 He thought I was good. 135 00:06:57.140 --> 00:07:01.220 But he died soon after, so maybe it's just as well I didn't go. 136 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:03.340 Or that was my fate. 137 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:08.680 So then there you were after you and Tom were married 138 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:12.460 once you came back from Buenos Aires. 139 00:07:13.580 --> 00:07:16.640 And you were back in Chicago, dancing in Chicago, 140 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:21.420 living with Tom's father in his house. 141 00:07:24.740 --> 00:07:27.340 And Tom was developing his law practice? 142 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:29.860 He was always practicing law. 143 00:07:30.900 --> 00:07:34.100 He left this firm that he was with, his father's firm, 144 00:07:34.640 --> 00:07:35.760 and started on his own. 145 00:07:35.780 --> 00:07:40.680 So of course he had to get clients and he had to work up a business, which he did. 146 00:07:41.520 --> 00:07:44.060 Sounds as though Tom was a rather independent person too. 147 00:07:44.140 --> 00:07:45.440 Very, yes. Oh, very. 148 00:07:46.080 --> 00:07:48.560 Do you think that was the main thing that drew you to each other? 149 00:07:48.700 --> 00:07:52.100 No. He didn't want to work in his father's firm 150 00:07:52.100 --> 00:07:57.180 because the other partner had his two sons in the firm 151 00:07:57.180 --> 00:07:58.860 and they were always favoring them. 152 00:07:58.860 --> 00:08:00.660 He didn't want to be favored. 153 00:08:02.140 --> 00:08:05.580 So he got out of the firm. He didn't want to be favored at all. 154 00:08:05.580 --> 00:08:07.000 He wanted to do it all himself. 155 00:08:08.080 --> 00:08:08.700 Like you. 156 00:08:10.060 --> 00:08:11.240 I guess so. 157 00:08:11.740 --> 00:08:15.040 So during the period when you were here and you were dancing here, 158 00:08:15.380 --> 00:08:18.160 did you feel you felt frustrated because you weren't in New York? 159 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:21.600 Well, I always wanted to be in New York. I still do. 160 00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:25.460 I've gotten used to New York, to Chicago now, 161 00:08:25.460 --> 00:08:28.980 but I think New York is a much better place to live for a dancer. 162 00:08:30.500 --> 00:08:31.300 I think that's true. 163 00:08:31.340 --> 00:08:32.820 There's no comparison. 164 00:08:33.980 --> 00:08:35.980 What is it about New York that you like so much about it? 165 00:08:35.980 --> 00:08:38.720 Well, all the actions there. 166 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:42.000 And here are your hometown talent. 167 00:08:43.820 --> 00:08:45.120 Isn't that the truth? 168 00:08:45.760 --> 00:08:48.100 Don't you think that hometown talent is just, you know, 169 00:08:48.160 --> 00:08:50.060 it's one of these things of profit in his own country, 170 00:08:50.180 --> 00:08:52.120 just never really is fully appreciated? 171 00:08:52.560 --> 00:08:53.000 Absolutely. 172 00:08:54.520 --> 00:08:58.280 I always tell everybody they'd better go to New York if they want to have a career. 173 00:08:59.700 --> 00:09:01.200 Yet you've managed to... 174 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:03.000 Well, sort of. 175 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:06.200 But I'd have had a ten times better career if I'd lived in New York. 176 00:09:08.220 --> 00:09:08.860 You think so? 177 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:09.640 Yes, I know. 178 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:11.240 How would it have been different with... 179 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:14.300 Oh, I would have done a lot more. 180 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:19.560 Seems like you've crammed an awful lot into what you've done here. 181 00:09:19.560 --> 00:09:23.460 Yeah, I never could really have a company here. 182 00:09:24.040 --> 00:09:25.740 I think I could have in New York. 183 00:09:26.780 --> 00:09:28.060 And there is more action. 184 00:09:28.280 --> 00:09:30.860 There is this sense of being at the heart of the action. 185 00:09:31.260 --> 00:09:32.800 Yeah, and you're appreciated more there. 186 00:09:32.860 --> 00:09:33.900 Well, what you do. 187 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:36.980 I think, do you think it's true that in New York 188 00:09:36.980 --> 00:09:40.660 they take the dance more seriously than they do anyplace else, say, in the country? 189 00:09:41.180 --> 00:09:42.680 Well, I think they know more about it. 190 00:09:42.680 --> 00:09:46.840 There's more competition there, and they know more about it. 191 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:51.300 And there's a more discerning audience. 192 00:09:51.400 --> 00:09:52.840 There's a more discerning press. 193 00:09:52.940 --> 00:09:54.300 There's a larger audience. 194 00:09:55.400 --> 00:10:00.820 I was with the Lyric Opera 18 years here, but they wouldn't let me do any ballets. 195 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:05.040 I just did all the opera ballets, which I enjoyed doing, 196 00:10:06.980 --> 00:10:09.200 but it wouldn't have been better if I could have done... 197 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:14.160 I did the Mary Widow the first year with them, and that was such a big success. 198 00:10:14.160 --> 00:10:17.900 And I don't think they liked it, that it was a big success. 199 00:10:18.680 --> 00:10:22.580 I think they were jealous that a ballet could be so successful. 200 00:10:22.860 --> 00:10:24.360 So I never was allowed to do another. 201 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:26.560 And that ballet is going strong. 202 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:27.980 They do it every place right now. 203 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:28.480 I know. 204 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:32.520 They got an Up-P-Body Award. 205 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:33.440 I know. 206 00:10:33.800 --> 00:10:36.380 And it deserved it. It was a beautiful, beautiful show. 207 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:38.320 It's a beautiful ballet. 208 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:40.180 And it's true. 209 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:42.160 Most of the years while you were... 210 00:10:42.160 --> 00:10:45.020 Next time we'll talk about that, choreographing the ballets for the opera. 211 00:10:45.040 --> 00:10:47.440 Those were all years I was going to the Lyric. 212 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:50.180 And so I saw almost everything. 213 00:10:50.300 --> 00:10:53.340 Well, I saw everything. I was a subscriber, so I saw everything that you did. 214 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:58.160 And some of the ballet was marvelous, but there was never a whole... 215 00:10:58.780 --> 00:11:02.460 I suppose Carmina Burana is the closest thing to... 216 00:11:02.460 --> 00:11:05.400 Yeah. Carmina Burana has a lot of dancing in it. 217 00:11:05.400 --> 00:11:06.100 Really? Yes. 218 00:11:06.100 --> 00:11:08.660 And then I did it later just as a ballet. 219 00:11:09.160 --> 00:11:11.160 I have it now just as a ballet. 220 00:11:11.160 --> 00:11:13.000 But that was good. 221 00:11:13.160 --> 00:11:16.780 I enjoyed doing that with them as just as an opera. 222 00:11:17.620 --> 00:11:19.200 Because there was so much dancing in it. 223 00:11:19.980 --> 00:11:25.960 But it was the only thing that I think that gave you a real opportunity to do that kind of... 224 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:27.460 I mean, there isn't that much in opera. 225 00:11:27.460 --> 00:11:30.880 It's sort of the standard ballet that they write in. 226 00:11:33.420 --> 00:11:35.800 It's difficult to do. It's difficult to do very much with it. 227 00:11:35.800 --> 00:11:38.160 But I know. And next time I want to talk about how much you... 228 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:40.360 You and I are fellow opera lovers. 229 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:42.140 I never realized you were an opera fan. 230 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:43.540 Oh, I love opera. 231 00:11:44.580 --> 00:11:46.860 I always go to all of them. 232 00:11:48.400 --> 00:11:50.120 That's another thing they have more of in New York. 233 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:52.860 More of in New York. More opera. 234 00:11:52.860 --> 00:11:54.460 Oh, yes. They have it all year round there. 235 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.200 Here we just have a very short season. 236 00:11:57.120 --> 00:11:59.700 We do usually six operas a year. 237 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:00.240 238 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:01.180 Or eight. 239 00:12:01.300 --> 00:12:03.840 Eight sometimes. I think we do. Yeah, now. 240 00:12:04.920 --> 00:12:07.820 And you were in at the very beginning of that when they started the lyric. 241 00:12:07.880 --> 00:12:09.360 Carol Fox and... 242 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:11.300 I was in it for 18 years. 243 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:16.200 And it was really quite a good base for you, Ruth, was it? Or wasn't it? 244 00:12:18.580 --> 00:12:21.620 Well, yes. It paid my dancers. 245 00:12:22.380 --> 00:12:25.020 See, we had the opera. 246 00:12:25.700 --> 00:12:28.780 And then we had the Nutcracker. 247 00:12:29.560 --> 00:12:33.280 And then after the Nutcracker, the Nutcracker gave us a lot of money. 248 00:12:33.640 --> 00:12:34.680 So did the opera. 249 00:12:34.680 --> 00:12:41.900 Then after that we had Kurt Weinhold in New York who took us on tour. 250 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:46.240 So I didn't need any money at all because I got paid for everything. 251 00:12:46.620 --> 00:12:49.180 Got paid by the opera, got paid by the Nutcracker, 252 00:12:49.260 --> 00:12:53.680 and got paid for the tours from New York from Kurt Weinhold and... 253 00:12:54.500 --> 00:12:58.240 What was the name? Kurt Weinhold was the main one who took us on tour. 254 00:12:58.900 --> 00:13:00.220 In the summer we didn't do anything. 255 00:13:01.040 --> 00:13:05.840 One summer we were taken to Kansas City to do something or other, which was kind of fun. 256 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:08.740 But we didn't work in the summer. 257 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:12.180 Yeah, so it was good. It was a good thing to do. 258 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:15.160 It was enough work to keep it coming together for almost the whole year. 259 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.660 Without asking for any money, I never asked anybody for a penny. 260 00:13:18.920 --> 00:13:21.800 And in Chicago, that is no mean feat. 261 00:13:22.060 --> 00:13:24.520 I mean, it is something to have a talent. 262 00:13:24.620 --> 00:13:25.940 Yes, it was. 263 00:13:26.420 --> 00:13:29.800 Well, why don't we... Are we fairly close to the end of the tape? 264 00:13:29.980 --> 00:13:31.720 Where do we stand? Even if we're not. 265 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:34.260 Why don't we stop for now and... 266 00:13:34.260 --> 00:13:35.020 This will be ambient. 267 00:14:04.300 --> 00:14:05.660 End of ambient.