WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.860 --> 00:00:12.200 It's March 18, 1845, it's 1948, we were with Ruth Pager and Cleo Plum, this is from the 2 00:00:12.200 --> 00:00:14.320 Archives and Sylvia Moravos. 3 00:00:17.720 --> 00:00:21.600 Yes, that's an interesting picture, yeah that's a Gershwin. 4 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:26.240 That's a good ballet. 5 00:00:28.580 --> 00:00:30.120 It's a very good ballet. 6 00:00:31.540 --> 00:00:32.700 Have you ever seen it? 7 00:00:32.700 --> 00:00:32.940 No. 8 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:38.900 It is a joy to watch and as you watch it you have the sense that you're watching something 9 00:00:38.900 --> 00:00:39.380 new. 10 00:00:39.540 --> 00:00:42.880 You know how when you go to the ballet you have the sense that you're watching something 11 00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:43.100 new. 12 00:00:43.340 --> 00:00:46.780 When you watch Frankie and Johnny it feels fresh. 13 00:00:46.940 --> 00:00:47.420 Yes. 14 00:00:47.460 --> 00:00:48.600 And it's old Ruth. 15 00:00:48.900 --> 00:00:49.920 Oh it's very old. 16 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:50.920 How old is that? 17 00:00:51.100 --> 00:00:51.800 I can't remember. 18 00:00:52.160 --> 00:00:53.840 I oughta know when I did it. 19 00:00:58.680 --> 00:00:59.240 19... 20 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:05.220 But I got here before I did it in Paris. 21 00:01:06.060 --> 00:01:06.060 22 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:15.800 Oh well you know them what they're like. 23 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:22.100 Well listen darling I'll call you and let you know if I can make it. 24 00:01:22.220 --> 00:01:23.800 I don't know... 25 00:01:25.600 --> 00:01:26.900 Alright let's go. 26 00:01:27.740 --> 00:01:30.260 He won't be back until the end of April. 27 00:01:32.300 --> 00:01:32.780 No. 28 00:01:36.740 --> 00:01:38.380 Oh well you're awfully sweet. 29 00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:39.680 Yeah. 30 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:43.760 Okay I'll let you know about Thursday. 31 00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:46.000 Alright bye. 32 00:01:50.700 --> 00:01:52.320 Everybody wants you. 33 00:01:52.500 --> 00:01:52.740 Yell. 34 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:53.900 I'm so popular. 35 00:01:56.320 --> 00:01:58.320 Okay here's a picture of you. 36 00:01:58.460 --> 00:01:59.400 Yeah that's a flapper. 37 00:01:59.720 --> 00:02:02.160 There's one with me with the quarterback too. 38 00:02:03.100 --> 00:02:08.520 That was the first I think Americana, real Americana. 39 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:11.520 Now I know that date was 1926. 40 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:17.680 Maybe somebody had done something American realistic like that but I don't think so. 41 00:02:17.820 --> 00:02:20.060 There isn't one of me and the boy. 42 00:02:20.200 --> 00:02:22.040 I thought there was one of me and the... 43 00:02:22.040 --> 00:02:23.020 There is some. 44 00:02:23.220 --> 00:02:24.880 I don't know where it is. 45 00:02:25.440 --> 00:02:26.960 It's not in this book. 46 00:02:27.540 --> 00:02:29.520 It's the same costume and... 47 00:02:30.900 --> 00:02:32.160 It may be in here. 48 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:32.500 Anyway. 49 00:02:32.820 --> 00:02:33.140 It doesn't matter. 50 00:02:33.220 --> 00:02:34.900 So tell about the flapper and the quarterback. 51 00:02:35.060 --> 00:02:36.880 I mean that was really quite a departure. 52 00:02:37.200 --> 00:02:38.400 Yes it was. 53 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:41.320 Yeah that was a real departure. 54 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:43.380 I don't know how I happened to do it. 55 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:46.920 I had the music especially written by Clarence Loomis. 56 00:02:47.060 --> 00:02:48.100 I remember him. 57 00:02:49.440 --> 00:02:53.780 And that costume is sort of copied after the John Held cartoons. 58 00:02:57.700 --> 00:03:02.680 And at that time we were all trying to be very American. 59 00:03:03.100 --> 00:03:04.740 You know we didn't want to be classical. 60 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:06.920 Now of course it's just the opposite. 61 00:03:06.920 --> 00:03:12.760 But at that time everybody was trying desperately to do something American, American. 62 00:03:13.440 --> 00:03:16.560 And that was my first American attempt. 63 00:03:16.900 --> 00:03:19.620 I did a lot of others later but that was the first one. 64 00:03:20.600 --> 00:03:22.020 And what's the story of the ballet? 65 00:03:22.040 --> 00:03:23.180 There is no story at all. 66 00:03:23.460 --> 00:03:29.120 It's just a flapper and a quarterback dancing together like... 67 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:33.100 Well the Charles, it was a little bit sort of based on the Charles and that was the dance of the hour. 68 00:03:33.460 --> 00:03:35.060 And it was sort of like that. 69 00:03:35.060 --> 00:03:43.320 I remember coming in and I had on these galoshes and he took off my galoshes and threw them up into the air. 70 00:03:43.420 --> 00:03:47.460 And then we started going into a jazzy thing. 71 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:49.560 And I remember the end of it. 72 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:51.300 We slid down each other's backs. 73 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:54.420 It was sort of original. 74 00:03:54.600 --> 00:03:55.200 It was short. 75 00:03:55.220 --> 00:03:56.600 Just a little short dance. 76 00:03:56.880 --> 00:03:57.360 How long? 77 00:03:58.000 --> 00:03:59.320 Oh about five minutes I guess. 78 00:03:59.440 --> 00:04:00.100 That is short. 79 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:00.640 Yeah. 80 00:04:02.060 --> 00:04:05.220 And you danced it and how was it received? 81 00:04:05.820 --> 00:04:06.660 Oh everybody adored it. 82 00:04:06.740 --> 00:04:07.860 It was something very new. 83 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:09.160 You see everybody loved it. 84 00:04:09.160 --> 00:04:10.640 It was very new at that time. 85 00:04:11.740 --> 00:04:12.820 Everybody loved it. 86 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:18.860 Now when you went out to dance it for the first time, knowing it was something new, knowing it was something different, were you at all concerned? 87 00:04:19.280 --> 00:04:19.660 Afraid? 88 00:04:19.740 --> 00:04:20.860 Afraid people wouldn't like it? 89 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:22.580 Well I never care what people like. 90 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:24.240 They don't like it, I don't do it. 91 00:04:24.260 --> 00:04:25.260 If they like it, I do it. 92 00:04:25.440 --> 00:04:25.740 That's all. 93 00:04:26.200 --> 00:04:27.440 It's as simple as that. 94 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:32.280 I've done a lot of dances that people don't like and I just don't do them anymore. 95 00:04:32.900 --> 00:04:34.180 But that one was very popular. 96 00:04:34.660 --> 00:04:37.480 The Peter Pan dances were very, very popular too. 97 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:39.600 What were the Peter Pan dances? 98 00:04:39.880 --> 00:04:41.360 Those were the ones you started doing. 99 00:04:41.520 --> 00:04:44.440 Those are the ones you started doing with? 100 00:04:45.340 --> 00:04:46.220 Oh I think so. 101 00:04:46.300 --> 00:04:47.820 I don't know if I should do Peter Pan. 102 00:04:48.460 --> 00:04:49.060 I don't know. 103 00:04:49.060 --> 00:04:51.700 I just always fancied myself a Peter Pan character. 104 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:53.340 I was Peter Pan. 105 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:54.980 Everybody called me Peter. 106 00:04:55.660 --> 00:04:56.120 Really? 107 00:04:56.120 --> 00:04:59.100 There's a picture of me as Peter Pan up there. 108 00:04:59.960 --> 00:04:59.960 109 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:02.520 By Remizzo. 110 00:05:03.300 --> 00:05:04.520 You're making a note, Laurie. 111 00:05:07.340 --> 00:05:09.200 Did you think of yourself as Peter Pan? 112 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:13.040 Oh yes, I was hoping that Peter Pan was just as you can imagine. 113 00:05:15.380 --> 00:05:16.340 Very fey. 114 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:18.900 Everything's awfully hot in here. 115 00:05:19.340 --> 00:05:21.220 It's the lights a little on. 116 00:05:21.280 --> 00:05:23.280 I don't know if the heat's on or not. 117 00:05:23.620 --> 00:05:24.320 The heat is on. 118 00:05:24.320 --> 00:05:25.140 The heat is on. 119 00:05:25.400 --> 00:05:26.180 It's on? 120 00:05:26.400 --> 00:05:26.920 That's true. 121 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:28.500 By the window I can feel it coming out. 122 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:30.120 That window or this one? 123 00:05:30.460 --> 00:05:30.880 Out there. 124 00:05:31.860 --> 00:05:32.960 Let's get Carmen. 125 00:05:33.400 --> 00:05:34.260 I'll go get her. 126 00:05:34.620 --> 00:05:36.220 Tell her to turn the heat off in there. 127 00:05:36.220 --> 00:05:36.920 It's too hot. 128 00:05:38.320 --> 00:05:40.100 It's hard to turn on when I let you do it. 129 00:05:40.100 --> 00:05:41.300 Do you want us to open a window Ruth? 130 00:05:41.440 --> 00:05:41.780 No. 131 00:05:42.340 --> 00:05:43.840 It's toasting to the lights too. 132 00:05:44.140 --> 00:05:45.800 It's too cold when the windows are... 133 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:47.680 I nearly froze to death yesterday. 134 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:48.500 Weren't you cold? 135 00:05:48.740 --> 00:05:49.140 Terribly. 136 00:05:49.140 --> 00:05:50.500 It was awful yesterday. 137 00:05:50.780 --> 00:05:51.760 Oh my God. 138 00:05:51.760 --> 00:05:52.800 I thought I'd never get home. 139 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:56.340 I came in from wherever I was out in the country. 140 00:05:58.640 --> 00:06:00.960 I wanted to stop and just buy a newspaper. 141 00:06:02.220 --> 00:06:04.320 They said, can we let you off on this corner? 142 00:06:04.420 --> 00:06:07.480 I was going to the Drake Hotel and they let me off on the other side of the street from the Drake. 143 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:09.060 I thought I'd never get across the street. 144 00:06:09.280 --> 00:06:10.380 Yeah, the wind was awful. 145 00:06:11.540 --> 00:06:14.380 I hate this windy climate we have. 146 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:18.820 You live on one of the windiest corners in one of the windiest cities in America. 147 00:06:18.860 --> 00:06:21.720 One day I was trying to cross that street and I just couldn't get across. 148 00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:24.480 The policeman came out and picked me up and took me home. 149 00:06:24.520 --> 00:06:25.780 Carried me across the street. 150 00:06:26.260 --> 00:06:27.460 I appreciated that so much. 151 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:28.780 I never would have made it otherwise. 152 00:06:29.620 --> 00:06:30.960 Yeah, the wind is really awful. 153 00:06:31.300 --> 00:06:32.780 It can get terrible. 154 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:34.000 Do you want some tea or coffee? 155 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:34.920 No. 156 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:36.440 Anybody? Tea? Coffee? 157 00:06:36.440 --> 00:06:36.980 I'll have some coffee. 158 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:40.400 Carmen, we'd like one coffee and one tea. 159 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:41.780 I'll have another cup of tea. 160 00:06:42.200 --> 00:06:43.120 Where is it? 161 00:06:43.320 --> 00:06:44.180 What would you like? 162 00:06:44.460 --> 00:06:45.100 Don't you want anything? 163 00:06:45.260 --> 00:06:45.480 No. 164 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:46.900 I'd like a coffee. 165 00:06:47.960 --> 00:06:48.840 Two coffees? 166 00:06:48.940 --> 00:06:50.520 Two coffees and I guess two teas. 167 00:06:50.520 --> 00:06:52.360 I'll have a little more tea too please, Carmen. 168 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:54.080 Two coffees and two teas. 169 00:06:55.900 --> 00:06:58.460 Those are, yeah, I don't know why I'm so hot. 170 00:06:58.860 --> 00:07:00.100 I've got a warm dress on. 171 00:07:00.520 --> 00:07:01.840 Well, it's partly the lights. 172 00:07:02.060 --> 00:07:02.060 173 00:07:03.180 --> 00:07:06.660 Why don't we go through this cassette and then stop when the tea comes and turn the lights off, 174 00:07:06.660 --> 00:07:09.780 which will cool down a little bit and then we'll do a little more right after the tea, okay? 175 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:10.720 Well, I don't care. 176 00:07:11.180 --> 00:07:11.920 You're a pro. 177 00:07:12.060 --> 00:07:13.360 You're used to lights, huh? 178 00:07:14.400 --> 00:07:15.020 No, go ahead. 179 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:15.700 Keep it rolling. 180 00:07:16.080 --> 00:07:16.080 181 00:07:16.080 --> 00:07:17.840 Yes, we'll just do it after the other time. 182 00:07:17.860 --> 00:07:19.260 Walk right through my frame. 183 00:07:20.260 --> 00:07:21.900 I had to get in somehow. 184 00:07:22.320 --> 00:07:22.320 185 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:23.520 You're going to shock poetry. 186 00:07:23.880 --> 00:07:25.800 That's right and there you go lousing it up. 187 00:07:25.860 --> 00:07:26.660 There I am. 188 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:28.280 It's a time once drowsy. 189 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:30.820 Okay, are we going? 190 00:07:31.320 --> 00:07:31.620 Okay. 191 00:07:31.940 --> 00:07:32.740 All right. 192 00:07:33.020 --> 00:07:36.140 So there we are, Flapper and the Quarterback, Peter Pan. 193 00:07:36.220 --> 00:07:37.800 Now I think that this is very interesting. 194 00:07:38.760 --> 00:07:42.400 I mean, were you being deliberately fey, Ruth, or do you think you just are sort of a Peter Pan? 195 00:07:42.400 --> 00:07:43.460 No, I was that way. 196 00:07:43.760 --> 00:07:44.980 Yeah, still are. 197 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:46.240 Oh, yes? 198 00:07:46.780 --> 00:07:47.840 I don't know what I am now. 199 00:07:47.880 --> 00:07:48.560 I'm nothing now. 200 00:07:49.440 --> 00:07:49.900 Hardly. 201 00:07:50.300 --> 00:07:50.560 Nothing at all. 202 00:07:51.700 --> 00:07:54.460 The Peter Pan, so what do you think is the essence of Peter Pan? 203 00:07:54.540 --> 00:07:56.080 The Peter Pan never grows up. 204 00:07:56.100 --> 00:07:59.740 It's the essence of the joy of being a child, of childhood. 205 00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:03.320 Yes, it's a charming character actually when you think about it. 206 00:08:03.400 --> 00:08:04.100 Don't you think so? 207 00:08:04.300 --> 00:08:04.560 Yes. 208 00:08:04.900 --> 00:08:06.620 I remember the play, Peter Pan. 209 00:08:06.660 --> 00:08:07.740 Don't you remember the play? 210 00:08:07.960 --> 00:08:09.260 I can't remember who did it. 211 00:08:09.500 --> 00:08:09.500 212 00:08:09.500 --> 00:08:10.480 Who was it? 213 00:08:10.620 --> 00:08:13.300 Who danced, who acted in Peter Pan? 214 00:08:13.540 --> 00:08:15.580 Well, let's see, Mary Martin became famous. 215 00:08:15.580 --> 00:08:15.580 216 00:08:15.740 --> 00:08:15.980 Yeah. 217 00:08:15.980 --> 00:08:16.320 Yeah. 218 00:08:16.320 --> 00:08:17.940 Peter Pan, yeah. 219 00:08:18.900 --> 00:08:20.100 It was a role you could have played. 220 00:08:20.400 --> 00:08:22.120 Did you ever think about the theater going? 221 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:25.640 No, I wish I had because I could have done it, I'm sure. 222 00:08:26.860 --> 00:08:28.620 I was only one of the choreographers. 223 00:08:28.620 --> 00:08:29.640 It was so stupid of me. 224 00:08:29.640 --> 00:08:33.900 I had so many different kinds of offers and I said, oh no, I'm a choreographer. 225 00:08:34.900 --> 00:08:35.340 You're stupid. 226 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:39.760 When was the first time you knew what a choreographer even was? 227 00:08:39.940 --> 00:08:40.280 We're going back. 228 00:08:40.280 --> 00:08:42.040 Well, I was just making up dances. 229 00:08:42.280 --> 00:08:43.380 That's all a choreography is. 230 00:08:43.380 --> 00:08:46.760 I always wanted to make up dances from the time I was born. 231 00:08:47.380 --> 00:08:49.020 I believe that's true. 232 00:08:49.260 --> 00:08:52.540 It came out of my mother's womb doing choreography, I'm sure. 233 00:08:53.820 --> 00:08:54.800 I'm beginning to think so. 234 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:55.320 I really am. 235 00:08:56.580 --> 00:08:56.580 236 00:08:56.700 --> 00:08:58.260 Okay, so the flap, we're in the quarterback. 237 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:07.900 And then after that, you did, there's a note here about a ballet you did called Oak Street Beach. 238 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:09.040 Oh, yes. 239 00:09:09.040 --> 00:09:09.800 That's very interesting. 240 00:09:10.380 --> 00:09:12.280 That was the beach here. 241 00:09:12.280 --> 00:09:12.740 Mm-hmm. 242 00:09:12.740 --> 00:09:18.020 And I thought it was so interesting the way the skyscrapers came right down to the water, you know. 243 00:09:18.500 --> 00:09:22.320 And that was all one of my first very Americana things. 244 00:09:22.940 --> 00:09:26.580 I don't doubt if it was a very good ballet, but the idea was good. 245 00:09:27.220 --> 00:09:28.040 It is a good idea. 246 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:29.960 Were there people in bathing suits at the beach? 247 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:30.080 Oh, yes. 248 00:09:30.500 --> 00:09:30.940 Yes. 249 00:09:31.060 --> 00:09:35.680 And they were, it was very realistic, a realistic ballet. 250 00:09:37.340 --> 00:09:41.640 I have pictures of it, so that's how I happen to know what it was like, because I don't remember it too well. 251 00:09:41.640 --> 00:09:43.840 And I think the same man wrote the music. 252 00:09:43.920 --> 00:09:45.160 I think it was Clarence Lummis. 253 00:09:45.860 --> 00:09:49.940 Now, how did you settle on Clarence Lummis to write the music for Flapper and the Flap? 254 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:50.800 I have no idea. 255 00:09:50.900 --> 00:09:54.700 He was just an American who was around here, and I guess I just used him. 256 00:09:55.160 --> 00:09:59.680 I always had my music specially written for my ballets until lately. 257 00:10:02.180 --> 00:10:10.120 Every ballet I, every dance I did, I had the music specially written until I started doing operas into ballets. 258 00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:10.520 Yes. 259 00:10:10.520 --> 00:10:12.160 And then I used opera music. 260 00:10:12.620 --> 00:10:19.800 And after that, I started using music that was already written, like Carmina Burana, Catute Camina, and all those ballets. 261 00:10:20.400 --> 00:10:24.960 The ballet things from opera, music written for the dance, really. 262 00:10:24.980 --> 00:10:25.480 Yes, yes. 263 00:10:25.920 --> 00:10:30.960 So, but was that common in those days for people to commission music for their ballets? 264 00:10:31.300 --> 00:10:31.300 265 00:10:31.500 --> 00:10:34.320 Was that common for people to commission music for their ballets? 266 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:40.200 Wasn't most ballet really done, it was folk music and music that already existed? 267 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:40.880 I don't know. 268 00:10:41.940 --> 00:10:45.060 I didn't pay attention to anybody's ballets except my own. 269 00:10:46.180 --> 00:10:52.660 When you gave the instructions to Harold Lummis to write music for the Flap and the quarterback, what did you tell him? 270 00:10:53.040 --> 00:11:00.620 I said what I wanted, or the idea, and how long I wanted it to be, and who it was going to be in, what it was going to be in. 271 00:11:01.060 --> 00:11:02.740 And then he got them, did the music. 272 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:05.200 If I didn't like it, I didn't take it. 273 00:11:05.940 --> 00:11:07.400 How much did it cost? 274 00:11:07.400 --> 00:11:11.420 Oh, you pay them any price. 275 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:14.000 He was happy to get $100. 276 00:11:15.800 --> 00:11:17.440 You didn't pay any price, little. 277 00:11:17.900 --> 00:11:19.660 Sometimes they'd do it for nothing. 278 00:11:20.700 --> 00:11:22.680 And sometimes they'd want a lot of money. 279 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:26.480 And all different prices. 280 00:11:26.760 --> 00:11:27.880 Did he come to the ballet? 281 00:11:28.100 --> 00:11:29.440 Did he ever see it performed? 282 00:11:29.720 --> 00:11:30.620 I don't know. 283 00:11:31.300 --> 00:11:33.000 I can't remember him at all, really. 284 00:11:33.620 --> 00:11:36.780 He's just a name, you know that he did it. 285 00:11:37.620 --> 00:11:39.880 Yes, I used a lot of different composers. 286 00:11:40.100 --> 00:11:41.640 Laman Engel I used a lot. 287 00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:44.320 He did all the dance poems that I did. 288 00:11:44.380 --> 00:11:45.560 He did all those. 289 00:11:46.280 --> 00:11:47.440 He was very good. 290 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:53.400 He was a sailor up at, where was that place where the sailors go? 291 00:11:53.540 --> 00:11:54.040 Great Lakes. 292 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:56.220 Great Lakes, was it? 293 00:11:56.780 --> 00:12:01.420 And we were living, when he'd come down, we'd work together all the time. 294 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:02.360 He was here, we worked. 295 00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:03.240 He was in the Navy? 296 00:12:03.560 --> 00:12:04.780 Mm-hmm. 297 00:12:05.800 --> 00:12:06.280 Yes. 298 00:12:06.280 --> 00:12:07.540 How did you find him, Ruth? 299 00:12:07.680 --> 00:12:09.320 I knew him before as a composer. 300 00:12:09.660 --> 00:12:11.780 He was just put in the Navy. 301 00:12:12.220 --> 00:12:13.720 That wasn't his job. 302 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:20.560 And he was very good for composing dances. 303 00:12:21.140 --> 00:12:21.920 Very good. 304 00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:23.580 Okay. 305 00:12:24.180 --> 00:12:25.440 So, let's see. 306 00:12:25.660 --> 00:12:28.080 We were sort of doing a chronology. 307 00:12:29.420 --> 00:12:31.940 You were invited to go and dance in Japan. 308 00:12:32.980 --> 00:12:35.360 And Otto was not. 309 00:12:38.160 --> 00:12:41.080 And, oh, here she is with the tea. 310 00:12:41.180 --> 00:12:42.180 Let's take a break. 311 00:12:42.540 --> 00:12:46.580 Why don't we go back to, you were about to leave for Japan. 312 00:12:47.300 --> 00:12:47.900 Oh, my. 313 00:12:48.420 --> 00:12:48.820 Okay. 314 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:49.920 You want to talk about that for a while? 315 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:50.560 If you like. 316 00:12:51.020 --> 00:12:51.420 Okay. 317 00:12:52.100 --> 00:12:57.440 You were about to go to Japan and you said, you had been invited to Japan and Otto had not been. 318 00:12:57.440 --> 00:12:58.160 We're rolling, yes? 319 00:12:58.260 --> 00:12:58.640 Oh, yes, ma'am. 320 00:12:58.920 --> 00:12:59.320 Okay. 321 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:02.260 You had been invited to Japan and Otto had not been. 322 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:04.220 And then what happened? 323 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:11.640 Well, I went and I took two girls and one boy with me. 324 00:13:11.920 --> 00:13:13.200 And then the boy was Harold Groszberg? 325 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:14.080 No. 326 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:14.680 Oh, that was later. 327 00:13:14.680 --> 00:13:18.020 The second time I went, I went with just Harold Groszberg and I alone. 328 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:20.240 This was the first time I went. 329 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:23.400 And I loved Japan. 330 00:13:23.500 --> 00:13:25.400 I've always been crazy about Japan. 331 00:13:26.260 --> 00:13:30.720 I think it started with when I was a child. 332 00:13:30.760 --> 00:13:34.140 I had a nurse who gave me a book of Japanese fairy tales. 333 00:13:34.400 --> 00:13:36.700 And I can see that book to this day. 334 00:13:37.100 --> 00:13:39.720 And I loved all those Japanese fairy tales. 335 00:13:39.740 --> 00:13:40.800 I still love them. 336 00:13:41.220 --> 00:13:46.080 And so I think I was prepared to love Japan even before I went. 337 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:47.520 And I did love it. 338 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:50.600 And I liked it both times. 339 00:13:50.880 --> 00:13:52.660 There are a marvelous audience over there. 340 00:13:52.660 --> 00:13:55.940 And they know more about you than you know about yourself. 341 00:13:56.060 --> 00:13:59.500 If you meet somebody, they'll say, oh, you did such and such a dance. 342 00:14:00.140 --> 00:14:01.820 Such and such a place, didn't you? 343 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:06.660 And your costume was like a new sort of say, oh, did I? 344 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:10.260 They remember everything, absolutely everything. 345 00:14:12.280 --> 00:14:14.240 And I had a lot of Japanese friends. 346 00:14:14.280 --> 00:14:15.660 I liked them very much. 347 00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:19.100 And how did it come to be that you were invited? 348 00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:23.220 Well, the Struck was the, I remember his name. 349 00:14:25.060 --> 00:14:29.700 And he was over here and saw Balm's performance. 350 00:14:30.460 --> 00:14:33.480 And instead of asking Balm to go, he asked me to go. 351 00:14:33.880 --> 00:14:35.120 That was the way it was. 352 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:36.640 And of course, I shouldn't have gone. 353 00:14:36.700 --> 00:14:38.240 It was a terrible thing to do. 354 00:14:39.260 --> 00:14:39.500 Why? 355 00:14:40.140 --> 00:14:42.560 Well, I mean, I was Balm's pupil. 356 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:44.280 And Balm had done everything for me. 357 00:14:44.280 --> 00:14:45.260 And I shouldn't have done it. 358 00:14:45.540 --> 00:14:47.380 I think it was a terrible thing to do. 359 00:14:48.180 --> 00:14:49.380 Anyway, I did it. 360 00:14:54.900 --> 00:14:57.600 Well, at the time, you must have felt it was an okay thing to do. 361 00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:58.520 No, I didn't. 362 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:01.520 But I wanted it so badly that I went. 363 00:15:01.580 --> 00:15:03.360 I was dying to go to Japan. 364 00:15:04.680 --> 00:15:07.100 And there was no chance I could go on my own. 365 00:15:07.520 --> 00:15:08.440 So I wanted to dance. 366 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:09.460 I wanted to dance. 367 00:15:09.500 --> 00:15:11.480 I really wanted that very badly. 368 00:15:13.100 --> 00:15:15.200 And so you made a little company and took them with you. 369 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:16.440 And what did you dance? 370 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:18.580 Oh, everything that I had. 371 00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:20.520 I can't remember what I danced. 372 00:15:20.560 --> 00:15:23.240 I really don't remember at all. 373 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:24.980 Everything I had in my repertoire. 374 00:15:26.180 --> 00:15:31.360 Well, it must have been unusual for the Japanese to see that kind of dance, 375 00:15:31.460 --> 00:15:34.520 in which by that time had become sort of American. 376 00:15:34.760 --> 00:15:40.680 And certainly even Western dance must not have been very well known to the Japanese at that point at all. 377 00:15:40.700 --> 00:15:43.040 Even the classic ballets, I would think. 378 00:15:43.040 --> 00:15:44.420 Well, I think they like classic. 379 00:15:44.420 --> 00:15:46.320 I think they knew classic ballet all right. 380 00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:49.860 But of course, I did all these, Saffron and Quarterback, things like that, 381 00:15:49.880 --> 00:15:52.480 which was rather a surprise to them. 382 00:15:53.260 --> 00:15:54.520 But they came right along with you. 383 00:15:54.520 --> 00:15:56.000 That's what I like about the Japanese. 384 00:15:56.040 --> 00:15:57.440 They were willing to learn. 385 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:00.840 And they went into it very thoroughly. 386 00:16:01.400 --> 00:16:05.060 They did everything very deep and profound. 387 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:06.660 They didn't just say, well, that's a nice dance. 388 00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:08.760 They wanted to know all about it. 389 00:16:11.040 --> 00:16:13.900 And I think they're very interesting people. 390 00:16:13.900 --> 00:16:14.680 I like them. 391 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.860 Do you think it's politeness or it's a different kind of approach to things? 392 00:16:18.880 --> 00:16:22.400 No, I think that they're more profound than we are. 393 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:24.220 We're fine with, oh, that's a cute dance. 394 00:16:24.220 --> 00:16:25.440 That's pretty, you know. 395 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:28.680 But they go into everything very deeply. 396 00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:31.400 At least that's the impression they gave me. 397 00:16:31.980 --> 00:16:33.940 Do you think maybe they take art more seriously? 398 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:37.880 Yes, and I tell you, they like to copy us too, you see. 399 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.580 They're very, we don't copy, at least I never did. 400 00:16:41.580 --> 00:16:44.380 But they like to copy what you do. 401 00:16:44.860 --> 00:16:46.580 So that's one reason that they... 402 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.080 But the Japanese theater is so interesting. 403 00:16:50.180 --> 00:16:52.180 There are all kinds of different kinds of theaters. 404 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:54.580 There's the no, which is very slow. 405 00:16:56.040 --> 00:16:59.860 And you have to sort of know about it before you can really enjoy it. 406 00:16:59.880 --> 00:17:03.880 And then there's the kabuki, which is the more popular theater. 407 00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:05.320 They have puppet theaters. 408 00:17:05.360 --> 00:17:07.000 Now they have a lot of different other kinds. 409 00:17:07.060 --> 00:17:07.960 I don't know what they are now. 410 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:09.840 I'd like to see what they have now. 411 00:17:09.840 --> 00:17:10.740 I don't know anymore. 412 00:17:10.740 --> 00:17:12.540 I haven't been there for so long. 413 00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:14.460 Maybe you should take another trip. 414 00:17:15.320 --> 00:17:15.940 I hope not. 415 00:17:15.940 --> 00:17:17.560 I don't want to take another trip. 416 00:17:19.600 --> 00:17:21.060 The other day we were sitting in 417 00:17:21.060 --> 00:17:23.500 when you were looking through the itinerary of that trip, 418 00:17:24.100 --> 00:17:25.760 and Jerry was reading it after you, and you said, 419 00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:28.560 oh, I've been there, and I've been there, and I've been there. 420 00:17:28.600 --> 00:17:30.500 You have really been everywhere. 421 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:38.300 Yeah, I haven't been to New Zealand or Australia or St.G. or South Africa. 422 00:17:39.360 --> 00:17:40.920 Some of those might be interesting. 423 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:41.720 South Africa? 424 00:17:42.020 --> 00:17:44.040 I was reading that article in The New Yorker. 425 00:17:44.100 --> 00:17:44.640 Have you read that? 426 00:17:44.840 --> 00:17:47.160 It's so long, I don't think I'll ever finish it. 427 00:17:47.580 --> 00:17:50.840 But it's all about the blacks in South Africa and their position. 428 00:17:50.940 --> 00:17:51.940 It's terribly interesting. 429 00:17:51.940 --> 00:17:52.660 Yes, yes. 430 00:17:52.660 --> 00:17:55.820 About slavery and how everything started there 431 00:17:55.820 --> 00:17:58.020 and what the apartheid means now. 432 00:17:58.040 --> 00:17:58.820 Yes, yes, now. 433 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:06.040 And the terrible situation the blacks went through there, 434 00:18:06.040 --> 00:18:08.280 all those, well, slavery mainly. 435 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:11.920 I'm going to finish the article though as soon as I get time. 436 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:14.340 Then I'll tell you about it. 437 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:14.680 Okay. 438 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:16.180 I'm about halfway through it now. 439 00:18:16.780 --> 00:18:18.640 You're really quite a voracious reader. 440 00:18:18.740 --> 00:18:19.420 You read a lot. 441 00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:20.560 I love to read. 442 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:22.420 Yeah, I like to read when I get in bed at night. 443 00:18:22.540 --> 00:18:25.140 That's when I like to read when nobody disturbs you. 444 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:28.680 And you like to listen to music before you fall asleep? 445 00:18:29.040 --> 00:18:31.060 Yeah, I listen to music all night long too. 446 00:18:31.080 --> 00:18:34.040 I turn that thing on and I can't sleep very well, 447 00:18:34.040 --> 00:18:36.160 so I listen to music most of the night. 448 00:18:36.600 --> 00:18:39.320 One of your biographers says that it's because your mother 449 00:18:39.320 --> 00:18:41.560 used to play music for you every night before you went to sleep. 450 00:18:41.700 --> 00:18:42.380 She always did. 451 00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:46.500 She had certain things that she put me to sleep with. 452 00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:47.700 453 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:54.140 Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da. 454 00:18:54.380 --> 00:18:57.180 Yeah, his mother, I always made her play me to sleep. 455 00:18:58.460 --> 00:19:00.500 And now you listen to music when you go to sleep? 456 00:19:01.220 --> 00:19:02.320 Mm-hmm. 457 00:19:02.320 --> 00:19:05.320 Sometimes it puts me to sleep and sometimes it doesn't. 458 00:19:07.380 --> 00:19:09.320 I'm a very temperamental sleeper. 459 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:11.460 You need to change your cassette.