WEBVTT

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This is tape number two, oh three number two, Ruth Page.

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We're visiting with her in her study.

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This will be bars and tones.

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The tone is on channel two, correction from 21.

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And the mix is the lob and the shadow of my phone.

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The boom is right over.

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And this will be a minute of bars and tones.

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I prefer our issues, but I'm not one.

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We've got our issues.

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Would you like some more?

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No, thank you.

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We've got our issues.

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That's better.

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You got any layer for us?

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Yeah, for the more.

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Isn't it amazing to do one interview where you get cables and cameras.

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I was going to say there's more stuff here.

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I don't know what's...

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Well, we need to go.

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You do?

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Yeah.

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It always amazes me to do something in this smallest thing in television.

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It seems like you need 40 voices.

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40 mills.

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Yeah.

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40 voices.

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Okay.

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We were talking about your mother.

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And it strikes me that she must have been...

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You got that, Laura?

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We were talking about your mother.

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And it strikes me that she must have been a rather extraordinary person.

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To have said to her daughter, to have raised you.

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I mean, she must have been extraordinary.

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What was your mother like?

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I mean, what kind of person was she, other than her love of music?

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Well, she was very pretty.

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And she was always into something, doing things.

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She was always busy.

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I don't know what she was doing, but she was always busy doing things.

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Going to musicals and having people come to the house to play.

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And she always played for everybody when they came.

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She practiced a great deal.

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And she always played for me.

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I would like to improvise while she was playing the piano.

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And I like certain pieces better than others.

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She'd play the ones I'd like, you know.

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And she went around every place with me when I had to go.

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I don't think she paid any attention to Lafayette and Irvine at all.

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She always went with me.

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And my father went off to the war.

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And so did my brother Lafayette.

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I don't know what happened to Irvine.

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He was too young to go.

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And mother went to South America with me.

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We spent a whole year there with Paola.

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That was a very interesting year for both of us.

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We went every single place all around.

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Crossed the Andes by train.

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Then came up the West Coast.

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We went down to Valparaiso and Santiago and Concepcion and Talca, down in Chile.

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Then we came up to Lima, Peru.

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And then we went through the Panama Canal and ended up in Cuba,

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at the other end of Cuba for some reason.

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I don't know the proper end.

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I remember we crossed the, there was a strike in Cuba,

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and we crossed in a strike breakers train.

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And we finally got to Havana.

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And after that, mother and I went home.

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Because the year was up and the father was back.

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We had to go back and I had to go back to school.

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Now Ruth, here you were.

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You were 16 years old at this point.

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About on here.

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And here you were spending a year with your mother,

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traveling with Pavlo's company, the most famous dancer in the world.

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What was it like for you with the other people in the troupe?

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And traveling with your mother.

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I mean, did you feel as though you were sort of the petted baby dancer

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who was part of the group?

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Or did you feel sort of separate because your mother was with you?

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What was it like?

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No, I felt perfect.

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Mother was a great friend of Paola's.

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And everybody was very friendly with mother.

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We went every place by boat, you see.

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And we were a long time on boats.

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I remember getting terribly bored with all the boats we had to go on.

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Because every place we went to, we went by boat.

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We started out in, I think it was Pernambuco.

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And then we took another boat to Bahia.

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And then another boat to Rio.

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And then we went by train to San Paulo.

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Then we went by boat to Buenos Aires.

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And then they crossed the Andes by train.

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Then we went to Santiago and Valparaiso and Concepcion,

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talking in Chile.

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Then up the coast to Lima.

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We stayed a long time in Lima.

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And then came home, came home by the Pernambuco now.

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Well, I just told you all that.

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Well, it's an amazing kind of journey.

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It is.

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For you to be taking.

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What was it like to dance on the same stage as Pavlova?

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Well, she was thrilling.

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I was just in the corda ballet.

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I don't know, it wasn't anything.

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But I enjoyed it.

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I loved it.

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Oh, Ruth, you must have felt a special kind of pride.

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I mean, it isn't everybody who gets, you know,

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picked up out of Indianapolis, Indiana,

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I mean, and gets to dance in the corda ballet.

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Well, there weren't many Americans in the company.

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They were mostly English girls.

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And they all took Russian names.

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They did.

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I took a Russian.

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And mine was Alexander Stepanova or something like that.

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So we all had to pretend we were Russians.

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Did you really pretend you were Russian?

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I mean, when people came up to you and said...

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Well, we couldn't very well pretend that

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when people came up to speak to us, no.

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Was Pavlova able to speak English herself?

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Did she speak English at all?

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Yes, she spoke excellent English.

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Did you spend a lot of time with her yourself off stage?

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Mother did, but I didn't.

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And your mother was just...

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It strikes me that your mother might have been in some ways

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your closest friend. Is that possible?

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She spent a great deal of time with you for...

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Mother?

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Mm-hmm.

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Yes, I have all my letters to mother.

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They're very interesting letters.

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When I was in...

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I don't know, when she wasn't with me,

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I was in New York in school,

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and I wrote to my mother every single day,

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and we have all those letters.

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And they're terribly, terribly interesting.

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Somebody showed them to me the other day,

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and I told her everything I did.

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And I remember I had three bows,

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and I said,

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Mother, you don't need to worry about these three bows of mine

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because I like my dancing much better than any of them.

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Your mother didn't want you to get married.

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No, well, I was too young.

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And she approved of dancing as a career?

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Yes.

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And your father?

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I guess so.

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They didn't ever say anything against it.

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And was there ever a time when they said to you,

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Ruth, you ought to come back to Indianapolis

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and settle down and marry a doctor?

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No.

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They never said...

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I never didn't like Indianapolis.

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I didn't want to go back there.

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I didn't like it at all.

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I remember it very well.

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I think I'd like it now.

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It sounds like an interesting city.

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But at that time, I was crazy about New York.

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I wanted to live in New York.

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I always wanted to live in New York.

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One more question about Pavlova.

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On the South American tour, where you spent the year,

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what were the ballets that you were doing?

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Well, that's an interesting question.

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We did Fairy Dahl,

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Kopenfei it was called,

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and we did a ballet called Amarilla.

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I don't know it.

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Well, I can't remember much about it.

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She was a gypsy, I believe.

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And what else did we do?

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Pomenfei we did, it seems to me, most of the time.

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And there was a ballet called Les Preludes

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that we used to do of Liszt.

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And isn't that funny?

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I can't remember all the ballets we did.

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She had quite a big repertoire.

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And then she always did every night

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a series of diverties malls.

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And she always did the ballet.

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And she always did two.

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She did the Dying Swan.

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We opened up with a Hungarian Rhapsody or something

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which the corps did.

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Then she did the Dying Swan.

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And then there was a girl in the company,

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Hilda Budzawa, who was sort of a soloist.

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She could do something,

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a little minuet or something.

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I don't remember what she did.

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And then three of us did a thing called

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the Momomisi Kal,

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which was always a big hit.

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I remember we came in with little pipes.

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And it made a great big hit.

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We always had to repeat it.

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The three of us.

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The girl in the middle had a scarf.

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And then she ended it with either

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the Pavlova Gavotte or the Bacchanal.

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And once in a while,

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instead of the Dying Swan,

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she'd do the Lillebille,

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that's the dragonfly.

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And that was it.

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She did two ballets every night

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plus two diverties malls.

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Then when she got old,

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I say old, she was 50 when she died,

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she only did one ballet

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and two diverties.

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But she never missed a performance.

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She danced every night of her life.

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And she danced just as well

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in the little tiny places

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as she did in the big cities.

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She was very, very conscientious

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and did her best that she possibly

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could for every performance.

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You could tell that because you were

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traveling with her and seeing.

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Yes.

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And she didn't care where she danced.

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She danced in the tiniest little towns

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and she'd give her her very best.

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Could you get a sense then

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when you were up on stage

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while she was dancing,

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did she seem to get the same,

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to electrify the audience

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in the same way,

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no matter where she was?

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Yes. Oh yes.

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You were mad about her.

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I remember another ballet

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that was called Faust.

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I remember that ballet too.

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The music would have been...

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I'm trying to think.

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There are three different Fausts.

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There's Gounod and Berlioz

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and Boito,

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those three.

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And I think this was the Gounod one.

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I think it was Gounod's Faust.

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The most melodic really.

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The most danceable.

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It was very popular.

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I remember I got to cross the stage

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with her.

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And I touched her hand.

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I was thrilled to death

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with that part of it.

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But

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I don't think what else she did.

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Well, she did a Russian dance too

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where she just stood still

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and sort of did runs.

271
00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:02.760
And two boys just broke their necks

272
00:11:03.380 --> 00:11:05.240
doing all these kind of stunts,

273
00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:05.840
you know.

274
00:11:06.500 --> 00:11:08.360
And people only looked at her.

275
00:11:09.640 --> 00:11:11.860
These boys did their utmost.

276
00:11:11.860 --> 00:11:14.580
They were breaking their necks to do all kinds of

277
00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:15.760
really hard things.

278
00:11:16.060 --> 00:11:17.560
And people only watched her.

279
00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:19.520
She had that kind of charisma.

280
00:11:20.420 --> 00:11:21.860
Real star. She was absolutely

281
00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:23.400
a star.

282
00:11:23.640 --> 00:11:24.960
There's never been a star like her.

283
00:11:25.380 --> 00:11:28.600
Is there anybody today, maybe you've answered the question already,

284
00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:30.580
to whom you would compare her?

285
00:11:30.980 --> 00:11:32.560
Have you ever seen anyone dance

286
00:11:32.560 --> 00:11:34.120
and you said, alright, well that's...

287
00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:36.160
Well, there are lots of great dancers today.

288
00:11:36.580 --> 00:11:38.120
And the dancers, what they do now

289
00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:39.180
is much, much harder.

290
00:11:39.180 --> 00:11:39.660
And I think that's the thing about her dancing.

291
00:11:40.100 --> 00:11:42.280
What she did was very simple

292
00:11:42.280 --> 00:11:43.980
steps and very...

293
00:11:43.980 --> 00:11:46.320
Now, the poor dancers have to

294
00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:48.180
break their necks to get anybody

295
00:11:48.180 --> 00:11:48.960
to look at them at all.

296
00:11:49.060 --> 00:11:51.180
And McCarb, I suppose, is the best one.

297
00:11:52.880 --> 00:11:54.460
But there are a lot of very, very

298
00:11:54.460 --> 00:11:55.160
good ones now.

299
00:11:56.820 --> 00:11:59.060
They couldn't have a whole company of their own

300
00:11:59.060 --> 00:12:00.000
and just beat the whole star.

301
00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:01.400
I don't think any of them could.

302
00:12:02.040 --> 00:12:04.040
They have to be sort of part of a group.

303
00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:07.040
Is there a way that you can

304
00:12:07.040 --> 00:12:09.660
figure out to kind of define what the star quality was

305
00:12:09.660 --> 00:12:11.200
that she had? Or is it something like

306
00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:12.180
a movie star?

307
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:15.640
How can you define somebody else?

308
00:12:15.800 --> 00:12:17.420
She was a genius, that's all.

309
00:12:17.460 --> 00:12:18.720
She was really a genius.

310
00:12:19.300 --> 00:12:20.920
Kreutzberg had that same charisma

311
00:12:20.920 --> 00:12:23.040
that she did. I think he was

312
00:12:27.040 --> 00:12:29.040
a genius too.

313
00:12:30.680 --> 00:12:32.920
But he wasn't as well known as she was.

314
00:12:33.800 --> 00:12:35.640
He was your partner for a period of time?

315
00:12:35.640 --> 00:12:38.500
I was lucky to dance with him.

316
00:12:39.180 --> 00:12:40.920
We went to Japan together.

317
00:12:41.940 --> 00:12:45.460
And he was a very remarkable dancer.

318
00:12:46.280 --> 00:12:48.680
Kreutzberg, you danced for the Emperor, didn't you?

319
00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:49.900
Emperor, yes.

320
00:12:50.740 --> 00:12:52.720
That was in 1928, wasn't it?

321
00:12:52.880 --> 00:12:54.120
I think so, yes.

322
00:12:55.260 --> 00:12:56.980
He was marvelous.

323
00:12:58.660 --> 00:12:59.640
Going back to

324
00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:02.280
the South American tour

325
00:13:02.280 --> 00:13:03.900
and Pavlova,

326
00:13:03.900 --> 00:13:06.420
and the fact

327
00:13:06.420 --> 00:13:08.900
that you were then 16 years old,

328
00:13:09.160 --> 00:13:10.480
when was the first time,

329
00:13:10.880 --> 00:13:11.900
Ruth, that you

330
00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:14.880
knew that you were

331
00:13:14.880 --> 00:13:16.660
a good dancer?

332
00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:18.220
That you had something special?

333
00:13:18.280 --> 00:13:20.600
Oh darling, I always thought I was good.

334
00:13:22.180 --> 00:13:24.420
I always thought I was

335
00:13:24.420 --> 00:13:25.480
something special.

336
00:13:26.580 --> 00:13:28.740
There's nothing ordinary about me.

337
00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:32.060
I believe it.

338
00:13:32.060 --> 00:13:33.760
So that when

339
00:13:33.760 --> 00:13:35.880
Pavlova's teacher said,

340
00:13:36.760 --> 00:13:38.120
or the ballet master

341
00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:38.660
said,

342
00:13:39.420 --> 00:13:42.080
why doesn't Ruth come to Chicago

343
00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:44.380
and spend the summer with us?

344
00:13:44.700 --> 00:13:46.160
You thought that that was

345
00:13:46.160 --> 00:13:47.820
just perfectly ordinary, that you were a dancer?

346
00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:48.920
Sure, yes.

347
00:13:49.740 --> 00:13:51.360
Of course, the dancers were rarer.

348
00:13:51.580 --> 00:13:54.020
Now the women dancers are a dime a dozen.

349
00:13:54.940 --> 00:13:55.700
But in that day,

350
00:13:55.860 --> 00:13:57.420
they were more rare.

351
00:13:58.700 --> 00:14:00.540
There were lots fewer

352
00:14:00.540 --> 00:14:02.100
dancers, and we didn't have to do

353
00:14:02.100 --> 00:14:04.960
such hard things as they have to do today.

354
00:14:05.460 --> 00:14:06.540
Oh, and I see the

355
00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:08.680
auditions. We have auditions

356
00:14:08.680 --> 00:14:10.480
at our school. People who are at our

357
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:12.140
places to try out dancers.

358
00:14:12.280 --> 00:14:14.160
Oh my God, what they give them to do.

359
00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:16.500
They have to be able to do everything, acrobatics

360
00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:18.700
and tap and foot days

361
00:14:18.700 --> 00:14:20.560
and real classic

362
00:14:20.560 --> 00:14:22.600
dancing and jazz dancing.

363
00:14:24.520 --> 00:14:26.920
I wouldn't like to be a dancer today.

364
00:14:27.300 --> 00:14:28.360
I really wouldn't.

365
00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:30.980
But you can do everything too,

366
00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:32.900
and have done everything, just about,

367
00:14:33.980 --> 00:14:35.180
in your days.

368
00:14:35.180 --> 00:14:36.720
I've never done tap, I've never done

369
00:14:37.340 --> 00:14:37.780
acrobatics.

370
00:14:38.180 --> 00:14:40.100
Sort of acrobatic, some of your ballets,

371
00:14:40.140 --> 00:14:42.160
not acrobatic, I guess, in the sense that you mean

372
00:14:42.160 --> 00:14:43.700
not the way it is today.

373
00:14:44.540 --> 00:14:45.700
And no tap, ever.

374
00:14:47.420 --> 00:14:48.780
I wish I had, I love it.

375
00:14:49.100 --> 00:14:50.640
I took a few dance

376
00:14:50.640 --> 00:14:52.520
lessons last year,

377
00:14:52.520 --> 00:14:54.360
but I didn't do very well.

378
00:14:56.980 --> 00:14:57.680
It's hard.

379
00:14:57.760 --> 00:14:59.100
It's lots of fun though.

380
00:14:59.460 --> 00:15:01.140
We teach tap in our school.

381
00:15:02.380 --> 00:15:02.820
I know you do.

382
00:15:03.460 --> 00:15:05.600
I guess what I'm thinking of is, isn't there a tap

383
00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:06.900
part of Frankie and Johnny

384
00:15:06.900 --> 00:15:08.020
that you dance?

385
00:15:08.040 --> 00:15:09.240
Oh, a few steps.

386
00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:12.080
That she dances?

387
00:15:12.300 --> 00:15:13.220
And didn't you dance Frankie?

388
00:15:13.220 --> 00:15:15.920
No, she doesn't do tap.

389
00:15:15.940 --> 00:15:18.920
No, the boys come in carrying the coffin doing a tap step.

390
00:15:19.680 --> 00:15:20.980
I knew I was remembering something.

391
00:15:20.980 --> 00:15:23.000
Yeah, they do a tap step

392
00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:25.240
because they bring in the coffin.

393
00:15:26.640 --> 00:15:27.740
Which is very amusing.

394
00:15:28.060 --> 00:15:28.660
Oh, it's wonderful.

395
00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:31.020
It's a great moment in the ballet.

396
00:15:31.260 --> 00:15:31.960
You've seen it?

397
00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:32.760
Oh, yes.

398
00:15:34.220 --> 00:15:36.220
I've seen it live and I've seen it on tape.

399
00:15:39.340 --> 00:15:42.500
This is totally out of context, but I was reading something.

400
00:15:42.680 --> 00:15:45.360
The first time that ballet was performed in Paris,

401
00:15:45.900 --> 00:15:46.480
Frankie and Johnny,

402
00:15:46.700 --> 00:15:48.460
it really had quite a reception, right?

403
00:15:48.760 --> 00:15:51.120
Yes, people were shocked. They didn't know what to make of it

404
00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:53.080
because they'd never seen anything like that.

405
00:15:54.100 --> 00:15:56.480
There were lots of pros and cons.

406
00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:01.080
And Larry Onuf and Gunter Roewe,

407
00:16:01.160 --> 00:16:03.340
they were two very famous artists there.

408
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.220
They okayed it and said it was great.

409
00:16:05.400 --> 00:16:08.540
And then the whole Paris started thinking it was great too.

410
00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:11.700
But without them, I think we would have had a hard time.

411
00:16:11.980 --> 00:16:14.160
What was it about it that was so shocking to them?

412
00:16:14.180 --> 00:16:16.440
Well, they'd never seen a real ballet like that.

413
00:16:16.700 --> 00:16:20.040
For them, ballets were always in tutus, you know,

414
00:16:20.040 --> 00:16:25.220
like Giselle or, well, the classical ballet Swan Lake.

415
00:16:25.260 --> 00:16:28.640
This was completely an American thing.

416
00:16:29.460 --> 00:16:31.660
They'd never seen anything like it.

417
00:16:31.980 --> 00:16:33.020
American story.

418
00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:37.260
It's still in its way today.

419
00:16:39.340 --> 00:16:39.740
Startling.

420
00:16:40.380 --> 00:16:41.560
It's original.

421
00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:43.560
Yes, it is very original.

422
00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:47.120
But it's a classic now.

423
00:16:47.180 --> 00:16:49.000
People don't think anything about it anymore.

424
00:16:50.180 --> 00:16:51.820
But it took a long time.

425
00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:54.060
Yeah, I used to dance it. I danced it a lot.

426
00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:55.720
I danced it in Paris.

427
00:16:57.040 --> 00:16:59.100
But it has no tap steps in it.

428
00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:00.440


429
00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:02.520
For me, I mean.

430
00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:02.980
For you.

431
00:17:04.020 --> 00:17:05.140
For the Frankie.

432
00:17:06.940 --> 00:17:08.020
Nobody ever said to him,

433
00:17:08.020 --> 00:17:09.800
and Ruth, you're not terribly tall.

434
00:17:09.800 --> 00:17:10.720
How tall are you?

435
00:17:11.560 --> 00:17:12.380
Oh, I don't know.

436
00:17:12.580 --> 00:17:16.480
I think I'm five feet two or five foot four.

437
00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:17.280
I don't know which.

438
00:17:17.280 --> 00:17:19.280
And nobody ever said,

439
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:22.220
isn't that a little short to be a dancer?

440
00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:23.040
No.

441
00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:26.240
The dancers are getting taller and taller now.

442
00:17:26.620 --> 00:17:28.040
I would be short now.

443
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:29.940
They're all getting so big.

444
00:17:30.300 --> 00:17:31.160
Very big, yeah.

445
00:17:31.280 --> 00:17:32.440
They're too big.

446
00:17:33.040 --> 00:17:34.580
They have to have such tall men.

447
00:17:36.380 --> 00:17:37.740
The girls are getting much bigger.

448
00:17:38.760 --> 00:17:40.300
But, well, so then when you started,

449
00:17:40.520 --> 00:17:42.580
I mean Pavlova wasn't terribly tall.

450
00:17:42.740 --> 00:17:44.320
I've always pictured her as being very...

451
00:17:44.320 --> 00:17:45.520
Oh, she's not tall at all.

452
00:17:45.520 --> 00:17:45.960
No.

453
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:49.520
She's about my size.

454
00:17:51.020 --> 00:17:51.020


455
00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:52.080
All right.

456
00:17:52.700 --> 00:17:54.380
Anyway, so then you came back

457
00:17:55.140 --> 00:17:56.660
after the South American tour

458
00:17:56.660 --> 00:17:59.700
and went back to school.

459
00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:00.920
In Indianapolis.

460
00:18:01.380 --> 00:18:02.300
No, in New York.

461
00:18:02.360 --> 00:18:03.720
And then you went directly to New York.

462
00:18:04.020 --> 00:18:05.620
No, I went to school in New York.

463
00:18:06.140 --> 00:18:08.640
I graduated at Tudor Hall in Indianapolis.

464
00:18:08.840 --> 00:18:09.340
Is something wrong?

465
00:18:10.120 --> 00:18:10.920
I'm terribly sorry.

466
00:18:11.980 --> 00:18:13.740
Okay, just let it be.

467
00:18:13.860 --> 00:18:14.580
We'll pull it from something.

468
00:18:14.860 --> 00:18:15.860
Do you want to go ahead and change it?

469
00:18:16.420 --> 00:18:16.980
Stop tape.