(15) 9-1-74, 2, Charles N David

Side 1:
William Grisham interviews Ebony Film Corporation cinematographer and director, Charles David.  David describes his work as a cinematographer and director, namely with Essanay Studios and Ebony Film Corporation. He also outlines the relevant cinematographic practices in Chicago during the silent era.

Side 2: 
In this part of the interview, Charles David describes his work as a cinematographer and director, including with prominent film producer and studio executive, Carl Laemmle.

Content notice: this interview contains racial slurs.

Side 1:

William Grisham: (00:05)
This is September 1st, 1974. [inaudible] 
 
Charles David: (00:09)
No, I mean that's my thoughts out [inaudible] Allen Blonde. [inaudible]. He was ahead of my time.
 
William Grisham: (00:24)
Probably so. He's made the—he was then later become a director and made around 1400 films as he was the most prolific director in—
 
Charles David: (00:35)
In New York. 
 
William Grisham: (00:36)
No, in Hollywood. He later went to Hollywood, and well—

Charles David: (00:40)
We ignored Hollywood in my day and time. 
 
William Grisham: (00:43)
Of course, you did. Now, see if I have my—I tend to want a transformer that I have. Do you have a transformer on yours or not? 
 
Charles David: (00:59)
Yeah, but I'm not using it. 
 
William Grisham: (01:00)
What if it was in this German thing that I have? 
 
Charles David: (01:06)
I’ve got a Phillips. 
 
William Grisham: (01:08)
Here’s a Phillips. That will probably fit then.
 
Charles David: (1:10)
Will that help you?
 
William Grisham: (01:12)
Yeah

Charles David: (01:13) 
I'm running off a battery. 
 
William Grisham: (01:16)
I don't know what my batteries are like. I don’t know if they’re working either. Let’s see. Yeah. And I didn’t do anything. I had a transformer on every [inaudible].
 
Charles David: (01:30)
Does your transformer fit?
 
William Grisham: (01:32)
What?
 
Charles David: (01:34)
Does your transformer fit?
 
William Grisham: (01:37)
Of course, the ball with all this rigging. What is this? Is this yours [inaudible]?
 
Charles David: (01:39)
Oh, that’s the fit in itself.
 
William Grisham: (01:42)
Let me use this cartridge that I have.

Charles David: (01:46)
That there’s a fire out there. The house on fire, or they have a barbecue?
 
William Grisham: (01:51)
I’ll borrow yours, and then I'll take just take the cartridge with [inaudible]. I wouldn’t take the cartridge [inaudible]. There's only the Guild East and the Guild West and nothing for Chicago people. I would like to organize that.
 
Charles David: (02:08)
Well, that's the way they did to us. And they have a west coast union  local, and the east coast, right? 645, 659. And I won the local here. And they told me to go to the devil. So I went to the ole’ [inaudible]. 
 
William Grisham: (02:24)
Good for you.
 
Charles David: (02:24)
I got to George Brown and Tommy Maloyd. Now I got a gold card and now I'm coasting.

William Grisham: (02:33) 
Did you know—you knew Hazel and her husband Buddy.

Charles David: (02:38) 
Yeah. I was surprised. Hazel and I were very good friends.

William Grisham: (02:47)
She was a wonderful person. I interviewed her years ago, and I remember her son-in-law who was a fireman.
 
Charles David: (02:57)
Olson?

William Grisham: (02:58) 
And they had several hundred Destiny Films there, but he said that they had to burn them because they were—
 
Charles David: (03:02)
They were flammable.

William Grisham: (03:03)
Yeah, nitrate. There was a fire law so that’s how they got. And they did…

Charles David: (03:12)
In the olden day, they had no fire prevention budget or anything. I was at 173 North Green, and the film was too bad to use. I put it in the wash boiler and turn the steam hose on it and skin it off. And then I wipe it down and use it for later. And the guy come in, and I had a pile of film about that high in the middle of the floor. And I was white. When you got to talk to me, he says, “I am in a new department. I'm going to be fire prevention.”

Speaker 3: (03:49) 
We had—we had film started in the garage and in Jersey, the whole back end of the garage. And I was scared to death. I've got some of the basements, you know. Oh. 

Charles David: (04:01)
We have—we made Minuteman stuff for the selling of bonds. I guess we shot a hundred thousand foot of film and they come in thick cases. They wanted —they wanted them to get rid of it. So I said, “Well, I'll take it because we make it a hundred foot shot.” And we included some kind of an industry like making climate paper, batches or something like that. I was going to make a library of it. And it was twelve big cases of it. Not even in cans.

Speaker 3: (04:31)
In the, in the garage.

Charles David: (04:33)
See if we can gather—Don't worry, we did that. So I called, hello. I called up a garnish company. [inaudible] And we had some of stuff and it had some big views. It's enough. He said yes, we can recycle it. So, he'd come and pull up and got the twelve cases. I never heard any more of them. There was—
 
Speaker 3: (4:53)
That was a couple years—
 
Charles David: (04:53)
That was a wonderful library. 
 
William Grisham: (05:02)
These things are really…

Charles David: (05:05)
I’m surprised that mine doesn't fit yours. It seems to be.
 
William Grisham: (05:09)
Let me see what you have, what you've done on your own microphone. 
 
Charles David: (05:11)
I'm a—
 
William Grisham: (05:12)
So you have a SIM. This was one of the early ones. 
 
Speaker 4: (05:15)
That plug got to fit into the number two whole.
 
Unidentified Speaker: (05:20) 
If that's the right one.
 
Charles David: (05:23)
You got to hold mic Number two. You’re using both.
 
William Grisham: (05:28)
No, I don’t need to.
 
Charles David: (05:30)
Well, you’ll l lose your remote control. And I don’t think that that was set [inaudible]. Now you got a transformer.

William Grisham: (05:41)
Okay. Bring— can you plug that in?

Charles David: (05:44)
I was expecting it.

William Grisham: (05:49) 
I just don't understand is why this thing doesn't work. Why it doesn't go down because it should. See that’s the recording button.

Charles David: (05:57) 
It's running.
 
Speaker 3: (06:00)
It’s running. I can hear it.
 
Charles David: (06:02)
Well, it’s quick and it’s buzzing, but I’m not sure. Yeah. At the microphone line. ‘Cause you got this cord.

William Grisham: (06:10) 
Hello? Hello? Hello? Hello. Hello. It isn't live. That’s the thing. And this has to go down and lock. Well, when did you join Essanay? 

Charles David: (06:34)
In the spring of 1908

William Grisham: (06:36)
In the spring of 1908. And where were they located in 1900? 
 
Charles David: (06:39)
1933.
 
William Grisham: (06:41)
And that was 1933 Argo. That was the first studio there. Where did they—

Charles David: (06:45)
It wasn’t a studio at first. They built a studio and then they built a—But they built the lab and then they built the studio.

William Grisham: (06:51)
And they built the studio right.

Charles David: (06:53) 
And forgot to put an entrance to it.

William Grisham: (06:55)
Then they built a 1345 in about 1910 didn't they?
 
Charles David: (07:00)
No.
 
William Grisham: (07:01)
When was the 1345?

Charles David: (07:02)
Or that was after I left. And I was there. I got fired about 1912. And then about 1914, I went back to run the Sport Thompson machines.
 
William Grisham: (07:16)
Wow.
 
Charles David: (07:19)
But that they had to build that in the meantime. So it must've been after 1912.

William Grisham: (07:26)
Oh right.
 
Charles David: (07:26)
Studio B.

William Grisham: (07:28)
Yes, it was the other additions, you know? 
 
Charles David: (07:30)
Yeah.
 
William Grisham: (07:31)
So let me ask you this. You're you were in the—how do we record? And can we just play a little bit back? All right. Mr. David, your first name is? 
 
Charles David: (07:43)
Charles
 
William Grisham: (07:44)
Charles David. And you—what—why did you join Essanay? And in what year? What—
 
Charles David: (07:52)
I tell you the story about it? 
 
William Grisham: (07:53)
Yes.
 
Charles David: (07:54)
From the beginning?
 
William Grisham: (07:54)
Right.

Charles David (07:55):
Well, I was a ballplayer, and I had to walk from Focal street and Oakley to Chicago and Western to find a Prairie. And I owned the ball. I used to pick up a scrub team, and Shardi Richardson was one of the kids that came around. And he was of course some kind of a guy and he got in trouble. And I took his part. So he said, “Do you want a job in the movies?” I said, “Sure.” And so he said, “Come on out to Essanay” and gave me the address. And I went out the next day and Burt Hamilton, he was Shardi’s uncle. And he said—
 
William Grisham: (08:39)
Who was Burt Hamilton? 
 
Charles David: (08:40)
He was a superintendent. General superintendent.

William Grisham: (08:43)
This would be the technical end or what, general superintendent?
 
Charles David: (08:45) 
Over everything.
 
William Grisham: (08:47)
Yeah. Over what though? But not production. 

Charles David: (08:52)
Well, he had the camera man under his wing. 
 
William Grisham: (08:54)
So it would be the technical and the—
 
Charles David: (08:55)
No, I think – I think it was production too. 
 
William Grisham: (08:57)
All right. 
 
Charles David: (08:58)
He wasn't a—he was a director, but he didn't direct at Essanay.
 
William Grisham: (09:02)
I see. 
 
Charles David: (09:03)
So you asked me if I know anything about printing. I said, “Sure.” I used to print solely on paper and sunshine. So he said, “You get $18 a week” and that's all he said. I went – gone, go to work. So sure, he took me back to work. And Dave Hargan was the head of the printing room. And he and Shardi and I would run the printing room. I worked in the printing.

William Grisham: (09:28)
What was the printing room? For what—
 
Charles David: (9:30)
We had three printers for printing film.
 
William Grisham: (09:33)
For printing film and? 
 
Charles David: (09:40)
And we used to get an amount of film from Eastman. And when that was run off, when that run out, we have nothing else to do. So I used to go down and run the, what you would call Russians nowadays. So I run the projector, but after a while, Dave Hargan was promoted to the—
 
William Grisham: (10:04)
Hargan or Harken?
 
Charles David: (10:05)
H.A.R.G.A.N.
 
William Grisham: (10:07)
G.A.N.
 
Charles David: (10:08)
He was promoted to the studio as the camera, as an assistant camera man. And he soon became a camera man. At that time, Harry Zeck, he was an import from the east coast. He was the head camera man. And no previous to that, there was a—Charlie Kaufman was the camera man. And then Zeck come in with all this technique from the East.

William Grisham: (10:32)
And where had Zeck been?

Charles David: (10:34)
He, I think he was with some Jersey outfit. I don't know.

William Grisham: (10:38)
Oh, it would probably be Edison and Wright.

Charles David: (10:41)
Well, it was two companies right in New Jersey.
 
William Grisham: (10:45)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (10:47)
But he come west and he we got into a little trouble with the powers that be—
 
William Grisham: (10:58)
Ah.
 
Charles David: (10:58)
A fellow named Bill Miller come in as a camera man.
 
William Grisham: (11:02)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (11:03)
And then eventually he took his brother Posey. And so, Dave Hargan and Bill Miller and Posey were the cameramen.

William Grisham: (11:11)
And you remember Posey’s first name by any chance? Was it—P.O.S.E.Y was his name? And his last name? 
 
Charles David: (11:16)
Yeah. Always called him Posey.
 
William Grisham: (11:18)
Right. When did  Major Spoor, Marvin Spoor, become a cameraman there?

Charles David: (11:24)
Quite a while on that [inaudible] downgrade. He didn't feel like working. I made sure I wasn't the camera man while I was there.

William Grisham: (11:32)
Up through what year, then, that was?

Charles David: (11:34)
I'll say, come in about one—Chaplin coming about 1914. Yeah.
 
William Grisham: (11:41)
1914. The winter of 1914.

Charles David: (11:43)
That's when Maide started working in the office in the studio.
 
William Grisham: (11:49)
I see. Tell me did you know—did you meet or ever see or ever have others talk about George K. Spoor? For what did—what was generally the feeling about Spoor? George K. Spoor the founder?

Charles David: (12:03) 
Oh, he was very upstage but he talked to every, anybody, that, you know, that wanted to talk with him.

William Grisham: (12:09) 
Friendly man.
 
Charles David: (12:10)
Very friendly. 
 
William Grisham: (12:11)
What other things would characterize him?

Charles David: (12:15) 
Well, he had a mind of his own. And what else could I say about him? Good man.

William Grisham: (12:30)
Did you—well, you carry on with your story now because there—you were there, and you worked.

Charles David: (12:38)
I worked first, as I said, in the printing room. Then when Dave left, they've hired him [inaudible].
 
William Grisham: (12:46)
Yeah, they hired him.
 
Charles David: (12:47)
I was put in charge—
 
William Grisham: (12:50)
Of the printing.
 
Charles David: (12:51)
Printing department. That’s the [inaudible]

William Grisham: (12:52)
Did you do your own—did you have your own perforating machines there?

Charles David: (12:57)
Oh, that predates that. We at first we had the two perforators.
 
William Grisham: (13:03)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (13:04)
And we—I did the perforating at night.

William Grisham: (13:07) 
And you perforated at night. And in other words—

Charles David: (13:10)
The negative at night. We had a thing, Charlie O'Connor printed, perforated during the day. At night, the dark rooms wouldn’t stand the negative exposures. They were made of paper. 
 
William Grisham: (13:22)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (13:23)
So, I printed—I did the perforating at night. Then we had others in the periphery, in the printing room, running department.

William Grisham: (13:34) 
The perforators—Eastman sent the raw stock to you without preparations in other words.

Charles David: (13:39)
Yes. At first Eastman couldn't give us enough raw stock. So we bought some stuff like the Lumira and Gaumont and stuff like that. 
 
William Grisham: (13:47)
Did you ever buy from Pathé ? 
 
Charles David: (13:51)
I don't think we ever did.
 
William Grisham: (13:51)
But Gaumont you did.
 
Charles David: (13:53) 
Oh, what was the name of the shop that—
 
William Grisham: (13:55)
Great Northern.
 
Charles David: (13:57)
No, not them. They had—for a time they were the – they given us the stock
 
William Grisham: (14:05)
I see.
 
Charles David: (14:05)
Finally Eastman, Don Howell, made printers – made perforators for Eastman, so he began to get perforated film.
 
William Grisham: (14:15)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (14:16)
But before all of this thing, Bert Howell, he created all this stuff. He built perforators, and he built the printers.
 
William Grisham: (14:29)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (14:30)
And he standardized it. He was the first one to put a standardization on the size of a printer of a perforation. 
 
William Grisham: (14:36)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (14:37)
And you know, they also got this, whoever the powers to be in the business to standardize the number of where the perforation should land. 
 
William Grisham: (14:47)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (14:48)
At first, you know, everybody had their – had the hole and the different sizes of parts of the frame.
 
William Grisham: (14:56)
Right.
 
Charles David: (14:56)
Some of them be on the line, and some of them be a little off the line. And you can imagine what would happen when we tried to print it.

William Grisham: (15:03) 
Well, it had to go—it had to be with— 
 
Charles David: (15:06)
It had to be with that. 
 
William Grisham: (15:09)
The projectors of the time.
 
Charles David: (15:10)
The what?
 
William Grisham (15:11)
It had to work with the projector. So, it had to be standardized somewhere rather early on. 
 
Charles David: (15:17)
Oh yeah, but right at the beginning.
 
William Grisham: (15:17)
Because of—right in the beginning. And Howell worked for George K. Spoor along with—

Charles David: (15:23)
No, he had the—Bert had the Bell who was the city projectionist. 
 
William Grisham: (15:30)
Yeah.
 
Charles David: (15:31)
And he got Howell into it.

William Grisham: (15:34)
They toured with this equipment before the turn of the century. Both Howell and Bell worked for Spoor. 
 
Charles David: (15:43)
Yeah.
 
William Grisham: (15:44)
And

Charles David: (15:44)
Not at the of the turn of the century.

William Grisham: (15:46)
Before the turn of the century.
 
Charles David: (15:47)
Oh, they did?
 
William Grisham: (15:48)
Yes. That's how—and Amet was the one who invented the machine, the magnascope. Edward Hill Amet. 
 
Charles David: (15:56)
I didn't know him. 
 
William Grisham: (15:57)
And so that was fairly well standardized then, I'm talking about the perforations.

Charles David: (16:02) 
Well, I thought that the perforations were standardized just before Eastman went into the film business and that must have been around 1907. They didn't make film. 

William Grisham: (16:14)
Well, see Spoor was making film prior to his joining up with Bronco Billy Anderson in 1907. And they were making film media in the—from 1895 on.
 
Charles David: (16:28)
I didn't know that. 
 
William Grisham: (16:29)
Yeah. So that—

Charles David: (16:32)
He was a—he was selling, he was renting film. 

William Grisham: (16:36)
From Pathé. And he made some film because he used his sister Belle in some of these early films.
 
Charles David: (16:42)
I never heard of those things.
 
William Grisham: (16:43)
You were then in the print printing department in whom—who was there now, other than—
 
Charles David: (16:53)
Richardson and Hargan
 
William Grisham: (16:54)
And Har- then what was the sort of line of ascendancy then? You went from there to become cameraman, assistant camera? 

Charles David: (17:02) 
No – I come – I did the assistant camera man on lake Indianapolis races. We covered the first brick track races in 1911.

William Grisham: (17:11)
And I have a copy of that film incidentally. 
 
Charles David: (17:14)
Oh, you do? 
 
William Grisham: (17:15)
Yeah, I'm using—we're using it in another film right now. Were you on that? How many other were—

Charles David: (17:20)
Dave Hargan and the two Millers.
 
William Grisham: (17:23)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (17:23)
And Jack Rose was the stillman. 

William Grisham: (17:26) 
Was that for Essanay? Did Essanay turn it out?
 
Charles David: (17:28)
That was for Essanay Yeah, they had an exclusive on it.
 
William Grisham: (17:30)
See, ‘cause I have some of that early footage.
 
Charles David: (17:31)
What a turn em on that was.
 
William Grisham: (17:33)
I know. That was a Ray Haroon that won that one with a rear vision mirror, you know?
C
harles David: (17:40)
Well, you know, one man deal and the Marmon Wasps. 

William Grisham: (17:42)
Yeah and engineering you know, the Marmon Wasps, right. Marmon Wasps all are—
 
Charles David: (17:48)
Oh, what a show that was. [inaudible] rims and so forth.
 
William Grisham: (17:50)
We have—and the—now at Essanay you were at 1333; the labs were built there. When they took film – when they went out and shot film, it was largely on location. It was not studio. 

Charles David: (18:09)
No.

William Grisham: (18:10)
At that time.

Charles David: (18:12)
That was Anderson was a producer then, and Harry McRae Webster and Pop Baker come in and they already started production.

William Grisham: (18:19)
Alright. Now the—Bayne, Beverly Bayne, tells me about Harry McRae Webster. Who preceded Harry McRae Webster in production? 
 
Charles David: (18:27)
See, I don't know.
 
William Grisham: (18:29)
See you mentioned Pop Baker. He came later, didn't it? 
 
Charles David: (18:30)
Yeah, he was a circus manager or something. And he did the comedies. And although the production was seven-hundred and fifty foot and then we put a comedy on the end of it. And Pop Baker did that.

William Grisham: (18:45) 
The split reels.
 
Charles David: (18:47)
Yeah.
 
William Grisham: (18:48)
And Baker also directed the Sweetie Series. I know that. 
 
Charles David: (18:51)
I don't remember. Ah, yes. He—
 
William Grisham: (18:52)
He did direct the Sweetie Series. Baker – Harry McRae Webster came before him. Right. Harry McRae. 
 
Charles David: (18:58)
Well, as far as I can remember, they were both there.

William Grisham: (19:01)
And then who was, you mentioned a third name. Who was that?

Charles David: (19:05) 
For director? 
 
William Grisham: (19:06)
Yeah.
 
Charles David: (19:11)
I don’t remember.
 
William Grisham: (19:14)
Well, you mentioned a Burt Hamilton was the general.
 
Charles David: (19:18)
Oh, he was the general superintendent.

William Grisham: (19:21)
What was that? Technical? This is what I have to separate production from the technique.

Charles David: (19:25)
He was the—he was right under Spoor or right before.

William Grisham: (19:28) 
Then there was a man then later by the name of Boucher. 
 
Charles David: (19:33)
Boucher.
 
William Grisham: (19:34)
Boucher who came in. And did he take Bert Hamilton's place? 
 
Charles David: (19:38)
No. Yes, he did.
 
William Grisham: (19:39)
Yes, he did, didn’t he?
 
Charles David: (19:40)
But he didn’t have anything to do with the laboratory. [Inaudible]. 
 
William Grisham: (19:43)
But he was production? 
 
Charles David: (19:44)
Yeah.
 
William Grisham: (19:45)
But now Bert had something to do both with production and the laboratory. 

Charles David: (19:48)
Oh, he had it entirely when he writes. 
 
William Grisham: (19:50)
Okay, fine. And where have Bert come from? 
 
Charles David: (19:56)
He’d been a director of some sort.

William Grisham: (19:59)
Mhm. And Baker had brought—didn't Baker bring—
 
Charles David: (20:05)
Berry.
 
William Grisham: (20:06)
Well, Berry. I want to know how Berry—he got there. He came by a circus or what? He had been on Broadway.

Charles David: (20:11)
Oh, he was circus. He was changing elephants as far as I can remember.
 
William Grisham: (20:15)
Yeah. That's what I had heard, but he'd been on Broadway and bit parts before that. And McRae Webster. Where did he come from? Baker came from the east. I know that.

Charles David: (20:25)
Well, Webster must've come from the east.

William Grisham: (20:27)
And these were Eastern stock companies probably. 
 
Charles David: (20:29)
Yeah.
 
William Grisham: (20:30)
Um.

Charles David: (20:31)
I think he was married to Lye Briscoe. Is that—does that name sound familiar to you? She was one of the stars.

William Grisham: (20:42)
Who were some of these very early stars now?

Charles David: (20:46)
Well, I know Bushman and Burn – Blackburn. Lyle Douglas.
 
William Grisham: (20:59)
Who?
 
Charles David: (21:00)
Lyle Douglas

William Grisham: (21:01)
Yeah, Lyle. Was Bayne there? Bayne, I know—

Charles David: (21:06)
Bayne, Beverly Bayne, my—
 
William Grisham: (21:10)
Frisco.
 
Charles David: (21:11)
Ruth Stonehouse
 
William Grisham: (21:11)
Ruth Stonehouse was there. 
 
Charles David: (21:13)
She was cute. She was the nicest one of the bunch. She got backed all over Bayne.

William Grisham: (21:22)
Whatever happened to Ruth? Did she go on because Bayne did? Bayne went on to it MG.

Charles David: (21:27)
She kind of faded off. She was too nice of a girl to be in the picture.

William Grisham: (21:31)
I understand. I can understand that. Yeah.
 
Speaker 3: (21:33)
You mentioned the Welle Parsley before that.

Charles David: (21:35)
Oh, she used to hang around me. She's the—she used to come out there. That was a—quite of a bitter rivalry between the office down Clark Street and our studio. And we resented anything that come out of there, and she used to come around and nose around the laboratory, which was out of grounds for any of us. That bunch.

William Grisham: (21:59)
The office on Clark Street had what in it? Did it have the scenario department? And so on?

Charles David: (22:05)
It must've had ‘cause we didn't have it out there.
 
William Grisham: (22:08)
Until later. 
 
Charles David: (22:09)
Yeah.
 
William Grisham: (22:11)
And , the first location, , was on Wells Street. Do you mean Wells or [inaudible].

Charles David: (22:16)
Eugenia and Wells. 
 
William Grisham: (22:17)
What?
 
Charles David: (22:18)
Eugenia and Wells. I didn't work there, but I know all about it. 
 
William Grisham: (22:21)
That's right. 
 
Charles David: (22:22)
When we collected our entire technical staff in the laboratory from that's what's called little hell in those days. 
 
William Grisham: 22:29
Mhm.
 
Charles David: 22:29
So, you can recognize the bad boys they were.

William Grisham: (22:32)
Now your Eugenia and Wells was sort of a studio or what?
 
Charles David: (22:35)
No, it was a laboratory. 
 
William Grisham: (22:36)
It was a laboratory. 

Charles David: (22:37)
The studio was in the vacant lots along Clark Street.
 
William Grisham: (22:40)
And there was a Clark Street office or was it Wells Street? ‘Cause I have a Wells Street location on the letter.

Charles David: (22:46)
The office is Clark Street. It was on this Wells Street was the laboratory.

William Grisham: (22:52)
Mhm. That was the first laboratory then. Well, if you were there in 1908 then you were there a few months after the whole thing started because it was in 1907. 

Charles David: (23:06)
Yeah. We were all [inaudible]
 
William Grisham: (23:07)
That it at started. Yeah.
 
Charles David: (23:08)
To know that everything was in turmoil. I run the projecting machine half of the time and we then discovered the—why are my Biograph pictures were better than ours. They made closeups. And we insisted on having a full body. And if you cut their feet, why they'd scream.

William Grisham: (23:31)
Right. The Biograph—that was—with that—there were a number of people there.
 
Charles David: (23:36)
American Biograph Mutoscope Company.
 
William Grisham: (23:38)
Mutoscope Company. That was in a brownstone in New York. And Griffith was the director. 
 
Charles David: (23:45)
I don’t [inaudible].
 
William Grisham: (23:46)
Yeah Griffith. That's the reason for the close-up is that he began that, and it was he who was at Biograph in—before 1970 then. So, it was Griffith you were competing against.
 
Charles David: (23:56)
[inaudible] for other pictures. 
 
William Grisham: (23:58)
What?
 
Charles David: (23:58)
We used to show for other pictures.
 
William Grisham: (23:59)
Biograph and all the others.

Charles David: (24:01)
At the beginning, when I first came there, Selig, you know, they were ahead of us.

William Grisham: (24:07)
They were ahead of you in 1904. And where were they located? They were on—

Charles David: (24:13)
Irving Park in Western. Did you and I [inaudible] Kensal?

William Grisham: (24:18)
I know of him, yes.  

Charles David: (24:19)
Well, he called me up and asked me where Selig were. 

William Grisham: (24:46)
That's because the building doesn't remain, you see. Was there a fire of some kind?
 
Charles David: (23:31)
No, I bought it up.
 
William Grisham: (23:32)
What happened? Tell me about that.

Charles David: (24:35)
Yeah, they were moving west. 
 
William Grisham: (24:36)
Yes.
 
Charles David: (24:37)
And—
 
William Grisham: (24:39)
What year was this? By 1916?
 
Charles David: (24:42)
It must have been fifteen or around there. I'm not sure.
 
William Grisham: (24:46)
[Inaudible].
 
Charles David: (24:48)
And we, bought out and jobless—I had—I was working for United Photo Play by that time. Not United Photo Play. I was working for Ebony and we had a contract with United Photo Play Studio. 
 
William Grisham: (25:01)
Where was that? The United Photo Play.
 
Charles David: (25:03)
On California and Western, between California and Moe, between Milwaukee and Fullerton. And I don't—I'm not sure it was 2300 and something, I think.

William Grisham: (25:31) 
Milwaukee and Fullerton. What kind of a place was United Photo Play?

Charles David: (25:15)
It was, oh, maybe two—well, it was a two-story building.
 
William Grisham: (25:21)
Two story building. And was it a large studio? 
 
Charles David: (25:24)
Well, who didn't have large studios in those days? But it was a—we had a high ceiling, maybe sixteen, eighteen feet. And we had several banks of [inaudible] there. And we had a dark lights to get our light effects.

William Grisham: (25:40)
Is that building United Photo Play still standing or not?

Charles David: (25:43): 
I don't know. I think it is. Somebody told me it was.
 
William Grisham: (25:46)
Did they—
 
Charles David: (25:48)
I put in a laboratory. You know. I knew the laboratory business. 
 
William Grisham: (25:51)
Very good. 
 
Charles David: (25:52)
And I put in a laboratory down there, and we did all the Ebony films at that laboratory.

William Grisham: (25:59)
At the laboratory. That's United Photo Play. Milwaukee, near Milwaukee and Fullerton, right? 

Charles David: (26:04) 
Um, on, on California between Milwaukee and Fullerton.

William Grisham: (26:11)
And were you listed in the telephone directory as Ebony Films or were you listed as United Photo Play?

Charles David: (26:17) 
I don’t remember. Ebony Films, I guess. Cause United Photo Play went broke.

William Grisham: (26:21)
Right. And the—now in the laboratories, did you tint a good deal of the film that went through? Was there a standard tinting on any of this? 

Charles David: (26:35)
Oh, we quite often we added color with aniline dyes.

William Grisham: (26:40)
With the aniline dyes, right. Chaplin requested a lot of tinting, didn’t he? In his photos?

Charles David: (26:46)
I was doing Sport Thompson developing machines at that time. I don't know what they—I know he's a so-and-so. There was a place at the Clark. I think it was Clark. No, it was—What's the other street that around, over there—
 
William Grisham: (27:06)
Wells.
 
Charles David: (27:06)
No.
 
William Grisham: (27:09)
Broadway.
 
Charles David: (27:10)
Broadway and Stemberg Saloon was there. And that was a hangout.

William Grisham: (27:14)
And that's where they went at the end of the day, right. To—
 
Charles David: (27:17)
Several times during the day. 
 
William Grisham: (27:18)
Several time during the day. Right. 
 
Charles David: (27:19)
Stemberg
 
William Grisham: (27:20)
Stemberg Saloon. S.T.E.M.

Charles David: (27:21) 
We used to hang out there. I wasn't a drinker, but I liked my beer. And Chaplin come in and ignored all of us. He'd never buy a drink and they, all the technicians, would raise hell with him.

William Grisham: (27:36)
Now that was S.T.E.M.B.U.R.G. or B.U.R.G.?  
 
Charles David: (27:39)
Who?
 
William Grisham: (27:40)
Steimberg Saloon.

Charles David: (27:41) 
S-T-E-I-M. Oh, that’s Steimberg. Just the way it sounds.

William Grisham: (27:46)
B.U.R.G. or B.E.R.G.? 
 
Charles David: (27:49)
B.E.R.G.
 
William Grisham: (27:50)
Steimberg Saloon. And Chaplin had only made, made only film at Essanay. And then he left for the west coast.

Charles David: (28:00)
He made more than—Oh, what there. Yeah, he might've been. I thought he made two.

William Grisham: (28:05)
He made his new job, I believe, in 1915. His new job was [inaudible]. Now, when did you leave Essanay? So that I have that.

Charles David: (28:13)
Must have been early in 1912.
 
William Grisham: (28:15)
1912.
 
Charles David: (28:18)
And then went back for a short spell in ‘14.
 
William Grisham: (28:21)
In 1914, went back. 
 
Charles David: (28:23)
That was a short spell because they promised that we sold the machines that we were going to sell. Machines to Paramount.
 
William Grisham: (28:31)
These are the Spoor.
 
Charles David: (28:33)
Spoor Thompson. 
 
William Grisham: (28:34)
Tell me about the Spoor Thompson machines. I have a patents on those and I just was wondering what—
 
Charles David: (28:38)
You have a patent on it? 
 
William Grisham: (28:39)
I have the patent records on them.

Charles David: (28:42) 
Oh, what about them? They were murder.

William Grisham: (28:44)
What were they anyway? What did they do?

Charles David: (28:47) 
Well, it's long machine, twice the size of this room. 
 
William Grisham: (28:51)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (28:52)
And when the film broke, we'd move whatever we had in the developer. We'd pull them up on our rack, you know, and fix it. 

William Grisham: (29:00)
These was, these were the developing machines.

Charles David: (29:03)
And they would develop negative and positive.
 
William Grisham: (29:05)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (29:06)
Of course, different machines or different times.
 
William Grisham: (29:09)
Yeah.
 
Charles David: (29:10)
And there was a series of tanks. You're gonna imagine that. And we had the mixers, the chemicals, up on the room above. And we keep it in tanks. And then we replenished as we saw fit.

William Grisham: (29:27)
Were there any fires or anything because of work or practice? It was all really very good safety practice.

Charles David: (29:35)
No safety practice. We never had a fire. 
 
William Grisham: (29:37)
You never had it. Okay. Shardi Richardson then went on to become a cameraman. Am I correct?

Charles David: (29:45) 
Oh, that's a long way off. He went with Hamilton, and they started the American Film Company.

William Grisham: (29:52) 
Yes. Now tell me about the American Film Company. That started not too long after Essanay began. Am I correct?

Charles David: (30:00)
No? Hamilton and I—he lasted till maybe 1913. And he got mad and quit.

William Grisham: (30:07) 
Now Hamilton was Burt Hamilton, and Burt Hamilton quit.

Charles David: (30:13) 
He was the general superintendent, and he had a fight with Spoor.

William Grisham: (30:15)
He had a fight with Spoor, right.

Charles David: (30:17)
And he constantly fought with Bronco Billy. 

William Grisham: (30:24)
Both. How was Bronco Billy to get along with? I talked to his wife and his daughter, and they said that he was a kind of a loner.

Charles David: (30:29)
He was, but not as far as the women were concerned. 
 
William Grisham: (30:33)
Yeah. That's what I heard. 
 
Charles David: (30:34)
He had an American [inaudible], and they'd be making the picture.
 
William Grisham: (30:37)
Yeah.
 
Charles David: (30:38)
Or whatever you think. And he’d get some girl in his car, and he’ll drive away. Hold her. 

William Grisham: (30:45)
Yeah, Bronco Billy, Bill had left for the west coast ‘cause he couldn't get along with Spoor, I understood.

Charles David: (30:51) 
Oh no. He—they were making these westerns in the backyard, and then the stone quarries and things. They built—

William Grisham (30:57)
Where did they make some of the early westerns with Bronco Billy here? You say stone quarries.
 
Charles David: (31:03) 
That was the stone quarry on Western Avenue. I don't even remember where it was now.
 
William Grisham: (31:05)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (31:06)
I know we had the 35-foot mountain in the backyard.

William Grisham: (31:10) 
But where now what location did you have the thirty-five—

Charles David: (31:14) 
Well, where the studios are now, alongside of the thing.

William Grisham: (31:18)
And you had built that.
 
Charles David: (31:20)
I didn't build it, but it was built.
 
William Grisham: (31:22)
It’s on Argyle.
 
Charles David: (31:24)
On Argyle, yeah.
 
William Grisham: (31:25)
And I have a number of pictures showing the westerns as they were done in the studios and with the, these banks of Cooper Hewitt lights. Who installed the Cooper Hewitt's anyway? 

Charles David: (31:37)
Well that I don't know. That was one of the first thing they did. And I was in the lab at the time, you know?

William Grisham: (31:42) 
Well, here here's what the story I have. Maybe this will—that it was Alan Dwan, who was an engineer.
 
Charles David: (31:48)
That name sounds familiar, but I can’t place it.
 
William Grisham: (31:50)
Alright, Dwan was an engineer here and he installed Cooper Hewitt's in the postal, post office. And Spoor went by one day and saw those lights and peered in and asked around and finally found that it was Dwan who did it. He said, “Would you put them in my studio too?” And then we can shoot films indoors. And Dwan did, and then joined the staff as a writer, a scenario writer. 
 
Charles David: (31:16)
Could be.
 
William Grisham: (32:17)
And then he went with Burt Hamilton to farm America.
 
Charles David: (32:20)
Oh, He did go with Hamilton?
 
William Grisham: (32:21)
Yeah. They farmed America.
 
Charles David: (32:23)
Remember Jayguar and Kerrigan. 
 
William Grisham: (32:25)
And Kerrigan. When that's also
 
Charles David: (32:28)
He was star there.

William Grisham: (32:31) 
That’s right. Right.
 
Charles David: (32:30)
And Burt Hamilton took them with him.
 
William Grisham: (32:32)
Right. I knew that he took Kerrigan, and then Kerrigan and Dwan went to the west coast, right?

Charles David: (32:37)
No, they went to St. Louis.

William Grisham: (32:39)
They went according to Dwan to the west coast to—

Charles David: (32:47)
Well, they moved to St. Louis. I'm pretty sure. 
 
William Grisham: (32:49)
Well.
 
Charles David: (32:50)
They said Johnny Sites and—

William Grisham: (32:52)
I knew Gino John Sites’ son and his grandson. 
 
Charles David: (32:55)
Oh, did he have a son? 
 
William Grisham: (32:57)
Yeah, John Sites’ son. Now you're talking about Sites who did the pearl white thing?
 
Charles David: (33:02)
Oh no, he was a—
 
William Grisham: (33:04)
George Sites, you’re talking about.
 
Charles David: (33:06) 
No, I’m talking about Johnny Sites. He was the lab man. 
 
William Grisham: (33:07)
All right. 
 
Charles David: (33:08)
And he finally become a cameraman with this American Film Company.

William Grisham: (33:12)
Okay, good. That's Johnny Sites
 
Charles David: (33:13)
Johnny Sites.
 
William Grisham: (33:14)
And not George Sites. Well, Jayguar and Kerrigan though went where? From—What do you mean? 
What, what’s happened to—
 
Charles David: (33:21) 
Hamilton took him and several others to a studio, I think. First, they went down a Cedric Street or along there, and there was some kind of an organization. But if [inaudible] primarily went to a St. Loud because Shardi went with this uncle naturally when they broke up. And I don't think he went to St. Louis. I'm not sure.

William Grisham (33:43)
Well, there's the—see they're went there—The American studios are still standing. The building is on Broadway, north on Broadway and Devon. And that's where they apparently went because the building is there, and you can see the terracotta at the top. It has the flying “A.”  It's where the Devon Theater is. That's where their studio is.
 
Charles David: (34:01)
I think so.
 
William Grisham: (34:01)
That's where they—and then they also had—
 
Charles David: (34:04)
Well, I bought out.
 
William Grisham: (34:05)
They must've gone to St. Louis to though. [Inaudible] you have that in your recollection.
 
Charles David: (34:08)
That's where Johnny Sites got his start. 
 
William Grisham: (34:10)
In St. Louis. 
 
Charles David: (34:11)
And become quite a camera man. And he was seven years with Valentino over in Europe.

William Grisham: (34:18)
Well, American also opened a studio in Santa Barbara, California. Does that—
 
Charles David: (34:20)
 No, that was later. 
 
William Grisham: (34:22)
Yeah, it was later. Right? With the Talmadge sisters, but Kerrigan, who else? What other actors left then for America?

Charles David: (34:30)
Oh, nobody but Stooges.

William Grisham: (34:32)
But not good ones.
 
Charles David: (34:32)
But not the good ones. 
 
William Grisham: (34:33)
But Kerrigan was the best of all.

Charles David: (34:35)
He was big shot. 
 
William Grisham: (34:36)
Yeah.
 
Charles David: (34:37)
He was top in those days. 
 
William Grisham: (34:39)
Right.
 
Charles David: (34:40)
They tried to replace Bushman with him, you know, that they were entirely different.
 
William Grisham: (34:46)
Yeah. Bushman arrived very early. Wasn't he there early?
 
Charles David: (34:47)
He was there early. 

William Grisham: (34:48)
Yeah. That's what I thought.
 
Charles David: (34:50)
We used to box with him. I boxed with him. He used to come out in the yard and, you know, when we had nothing to do. We were always boxing. They were a tough bunch of kids.

William Grisham: (35:00)
He was always in training. I know that he had—
 
Charles David: (35:01)
Yeah, he was in good shape.
 
William Grisham: (35:03)
He was in very good shape. Right.

Charles David: (35:04) 
And I get boxing, he get boxing. So, we had, you know, we sparred then we didn't fight. But these kids that—I was the night foreman for a long while. 
 
William Grisham: (35:13)
Great.
 
Charles David: (35:13)
And I had to control these kids and believe me, you talk about Aniline dyes. You know, they take this—these—we had drum developers. 
 
William Grisham: (35:24)
Yes. I've seen those.
 
Charles David: (35:25)
And when they put it on the drying rack, they had to take these cotton things and all the—any—
 
William Grisham: (35:32)
Lint.
 
Charles David: (35:33)
Lint. No, from watermarks.
 
William Grisham: (35:36)
Oh, watermarks, sure. Watermarks.
 
Charles David: (35:37)
And these kids would be yellow or red or whatever would working. And they didn't give a damn.
 
William Grisham: (35:41)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (35:42)
They see somebody they didn't like and Wang! Right in the face of the [inaudible] with aniline dye. And it would be days and weeks before they get it off.

William Grisham: (35:53)
Did you have a lot of—did you have a lot of fun? You talked about Stemberg Saloon.
 
Charles David: (35:57)
Oh, I had a lot of fun.
 
William Grisham: (35:58)
And, what about [inaudible] Barry? And he was there. 
 
Charles David: (36:01)
One of the finest guys you ever want to know.
 
William Grisham: (36:02)
That’s what I hear.
 
Charles David: (36:03)
Well.
 
William Grisham: (36:03)
He was fairly early on, wasn't he? What year did he arrive, do you think?
 
Charles David: (36:07)
Well, I don’t remember. He was there when I was there.
 
William Grisham: (36:09)
You know, he came a little bit later than that. 
 
Charles David: (36:10)
Yeah.
 
William Grisham: (36:11)
Um, what about Gloria Swanson? When did she arrive?

Charles David: (36:15)
She used to hang around you know, when we couldn't use studio eight. I wasn't there. 

William Grisham: (36:20)
Studio eight is the old studio.
 
Charles David: (36:22)
The first one.
 
William Grisham: (36:22)
The 1333. Yeah.

Charles David: (36:24)
Yeah. And when they couldn't—they bought, built the bigger one. They were having the trouble with the natives, the locals on the kind of fire hazard. So, they rented it to the fire department.
 
William Grisham: (36:38)
Rented what to the fire department? 
 
Charles David: (36:40)
Studio eight.
 
William Grisham: (36:41)
I see.
 
Charles David: (36:41)
And Gloria Swanson used come over and see the fireman, I think. That's how she got in.
 
William Grisham: (36:49)
Well, I have just got a letter from Gloria from—she's writing from Europe. And she's very interested in this whole project.

Charles David: (36:57)
I never know her but you know—

William Grisham: (37:00)
She um, she was very ambitious. Did she come—she came from the Swedish part of town, obviously.

Charles David: (37:09)
They— her father had that saloon on—I tried to point it out the other day. Just where—I think it's Lincoln Park west or something like that. It's such a street. And it was the Relic Saloon. And her father run it.
 
William Grisham: (37:25)
What was the name of it?
 
 Charles David: (37:26)
I think it was the Relic because it had a lot of the Chicago fire, something about it. [inaudible]
 
William Grisham: (37:33) 
Oh, I see, the Relic Saloon.
 
Charles David: (37:33)
It's something like that. 
 
William Grisham: (37:34)
Right.
 
Charles David: (37:34)
It was kinda vague.
 
William Grisham: (37:36)
And Bronco Billy's wife mentions that she was also—that she was very ambitious. She tried to get in and— 
 
Charles David: (37:45)
Oh Gloria.
 
William Grisham: (37:46)
Gloria, very good.

Charles David: (37:47)
Oh, she had too much strikes against her because she was just ordinary. 
 
William Grisham: (37:50)
Yeah. She was—
 
Charles David: (37:51)
She had married Berry while she had never gotten any of it.

William Grisham: (37:53)
Now, did she marry him on the backlot or not? I understand that she did. 
 
Charles David: (37:56)
I don’t remember.
 
William Grisham: (37:56)
The backlot at Essanay. 

Charles David: (37:58)
That could be, but I wasn't there.
 
William Grisham: (38:00)
Mhm. It was probably—
 
Charles David: (38:02)
And I know they resented this, you know. They were a little bit biased on masonry up there. They were all masons. 
 
William Grisham: (38:10)
Mhm.
 
Charles David: (38:10)
And anyone that wasn't a mason, they weren't very well-received.
 
William Grisham: (38:19)
Now, you then—what did you do after the—you hit it up. You find that you hit it up the printing part of the lab. Am I correct? 
 
Charles David: (38:28)
Yeah.
 
William Grisham: (38:29)
And then what happened after that? What else did you do? 
 
Charles David: (38:32):
Well, when I left, I was in charge of the printing, perforating, and so forth. We had our own perforators for a while. I had a handle then.

William Grisham: (38:44)
Did you know any of the people at our—hear about any of the people at Selig over on Irving Park and Western? 

Charles David: (38:54)
Well, I went over to ask for a job, and Parson’s threw me out, but I knew Andrew-
 
William Grisham: (38:58)
Who threw you out?
 
Charles David: (38:59)
Parsons. He was—

William Grisham: (39:00)
He was the guy. Yeah, he was. Parsons was—

Charles David: (39:03)
He was the general manager, and I went over there. And I said I’m a cameraman.
 
William Grisham: (39:08)
Yeah.
 
Charles David: (39:09)
Where'd you get your experience? I said, “Essanay.” He said, “I can't use you.” 
 
William Grisham: (39:13)
Now why did he say that? 
 
Charles David: (39:14)
‘Cause he hated Essanay.
 
William Grisham: (39:17)
He hated Essanay. Okay.

Charles David: (39:20)
You know, in the first, we had those little Indian heads.
 
William Grisham: (39:24)
Right.
 
Charles David: (39:24)
And Essanay had, I mean, Selig had—I think they had a time with it.
 
William Grisham: (39:27)
They had a time with it, Essanay. 
 
Charles David: (39:29)
They put it on every set we've ever shot because they just assume Selig showed us—shown—I mean film.

William Grisham: (39:36)
Right. And they did it so they wouldn't have to copyright the material because they're not too many—
 
Charles David: (39:40)
I don’t know what that was.
 
William Grisham: (39:40)
Not too many of the films are copyrighted, which is a shame. 

Charles David: (39:43)
You know that for a long while the lab had to make the titles, and we used to put the—have a cup. And then we all had to wash our hands and put the cup on to turn the pages type of—I thought that was a highlight.

William Grisham: (39:59)
That is really a highlight. Yeah. The title scripts then came down from what? The scenario department? 
 
Charles David: (40:05)
Yeah.
 
William Grisham: (40:05)
Or from the director?

Charles David: (40:07)
I think it's come from the lab, but from the officer. 
 
William Grisham: (40:09)
Yeah.
 
Charles David: (40:10)
But we had a guy named Conrad. Conrad Laperti.
 
William Grisham: (40:14)
But that's—I've heard of him too. 
 
Charles David (40:14)
We imported him—we imported him from that—Essanay imported him from Europe. And he started out by making miniatures mountains, and scenery like that. And he did it in the lab. So, he was under our skin.

William Grisham: (40:32)
Now. Did he become a camera man?

Charles David: (40:34)
He became a cameraman Yeah. He was a cameraman in Europe, I think.

William Grisham: (40:40)
And he would be Laperti. How did he spell his name? Do you remember? I can look it up.

Charles David: (40:43)
Capital L.A.
 
William Grisham: (40:45)
Mhm. Capital. In other words, we don't know.
 
Charles David: (40:48) 
Pretty [inaudible].
 
William Grisham: (40:59)
Yeah.
 
Charles David: (40:50)
Well, he—I was president of the Cameraman’s Union. Naturally, I organized it. I made myself president. Then he, he followed me in as president. 
 
William Grisham: (41:01)
Very good, and—
 
Charles David: (41:03)
Would become nuts.
 
William Grisham: (41:04)
Yes. That's the guy that went nuts. That's right. 
 
Charles David: (41:05)
Yeah.
 
William Grisham: (41:06)
That's the—
 
Charles David: (41:07)
He was always nuts if you ask me ‘cause— 
 
William Grisham: (41:09)
Right. Was he a German or what? It was Conrad.

Charles David: (41:13)
I think German. 
 
William Grisham: (41:13)
What rank? 
 
Charles David: (41:14)
He couldn't talk English. 
 
William Grisham: (41:15)
Yes, he was German. Okay. 
 
Charles David: (41:17)
I got some pictures downstairs with him and Dave when they went over to Europe. 

William Grisham: (41:20)
Oh, beautiful. Yeah. Great. What are some of the other cameraman whom you remember? Where did sh-, did Shardi—Shardi went with American, right?

Charles David: (41:29)
He went with American and then he went with Bell and Howell, I think. 
 
William Grisham: (41:33)
Okay.
 
Charles David: (41:34)
Oh, he went with McNabb.
 
William Grisham: (41:35)
Alright.
 
Charles David: (41:36)
Yeah. McNabb was a president of Bell and Howell. He went to the Bell and Howell. Then he went with Ron Thicker, and he was a technician.

William Grisham: (41:46)
Now Ron Thicker was established apparently in about 1908 or 1909.

Charles David: (41:51)
Oh no, they’re about 1950, as far as I can remember.

William Grisham: (41:53)
Well, he started out at World Industrial Films, and it was Ron Thicker general manager. I have it. And he writes a letter to Mr. Selig saying—and this is in, oh, in 1914, I guess. He said, “When I established my studios four or five years ago,” which would make it 1909. He said, “I owe everything to you.” Now did Ron Thicker come out of Selig? He must have. Or did Ron Thicker—
 
Charles David: (42:22)
Yes. I don't know where he come from. 
 
William Grisham: (42:24)
It must have been Selig. 
 
Charles David: (42:25)
But I met him. No. I think Laemmle. Financer, Thicker. 

William Grisham: (42:30)
Yeah, that was Carl Laemmle
 
Charles David: (42:33)
Laemmle.
 
William Grisham: (42:34)
Now, Laemmle was a distributor of film. And then later his whole family, well, became Universal Films.

Charles David: (42:42)
Well, he become somebody when, you know, we had the Big Eight Patents Company.
 
William Grisham: (42:47)
The Patents Company. Right.
 
Charles David: (42:48)
And he's he set out to beat them. He had a—he had a department store in a building in a—
 
William Grisham: (42:56)
He was a furrier, wasn't he? 
 
Charles David: (42:57)
No, he was—he had a department store. 
 
William Grisham: (42:59)
Yeah.
 
 
Charles David: (43:00)
And sold all kinds of women's laundry and all in this two-story building in Oshkosh. I made a newsreel shot of it years later, but—

William Grisham: (43:10)
Then he came to Chicago.
 
Charles David: (43:11)
He came to Chicago, and he was one of the prime movers against the Patents Company
 
William Grisham: (43:23)
Right. And—
 
Charles David: (43:24)
He finally got us for—they got him for—what do you call that—
 
William Grisham: (43:30)
Monopoly.
 
Charles David: (43:31)
Monopoly.
 
William Grisham: (43:32)
Right.
 
Charles David: (43:32)
That's how I—we lost the Ebony. We had maybe only—
 
William Grisham: (43:35)
Now, tell me how you—how did you lose Ebony?


Side 2:

William Grisham: (00:02)
Let's not get into that yet that but I [inaudible].
 
Charles David: (00:004)
Yeah. 
 
William Grisham: (00:06)
It’s fantastic because you—
 
Charles David: (00:07)
Nobody ever made a nigger picture before.
 
William Grisham: (00:09)
Nobody did. You see, that's my point. Everybody, all the whites played blacks in those days. 
 
Charles David: 
Yeah, well—
 
William Grisham: (00:14)
Until [inaudible]. 
 
Charles David: (00:14)
I got a [inaudible] for that and the funniest thing that ever happened. We made up niggers as Chinaman, And you never saw such a terrific combination in your life. 
 
William Grisham: (00:25)
[inaudible] let's go back now to Carl Laemmle. And did you ever meet Carl at all? 
 
Charles David: (00:32)
I knew him. 
 
William Grisham: (00:33)
You knew him? What kind of an operator was he? All stops are out now. Let's be truthful [inaudible]. 
 
Charles David: (00:40)
Clever. 
 
William Grisham: (00:40)
Yeah. 
 
Charles David: (00:41)
Honest. The most decent man I ever dealt, did business with. 
 
William Grisham: (00:44)
Great. 
 
Charles David: (00:45)
And he had more thieving relatives than you ever [inaudible]. 
 
William Grisham: (00:48)
That’s what I heard. That's what I heard. Yeah.
 
Charles David: (00:50)
I know Stern, his brother-in-law. 
 
William Grisham: (00:53)
Yes. 

Charles David: (00:54)
And, they—When, I went to work shortly after that with Commercial Filmers, which was a subsidiary of Laemmle’s. 
 
William Grisham: (00:59)
Laemmle’s was an exchange or a distributor. He was a distributor. 
 
Charles David: (01:06)
Yeah, they were distributors in the exchange. 
 
William Grisham: (01:08)
But he also produced them, didn’t he? Because I—
 
Charles David: (01:10)
Oh, later, yeah.
 
William Grisham: (01:11)
But he produced films under Laemmle, not under Universal. 
 
Charles David: (01:14)
Oh, always Laemmle, yeah.
 
William Grisham: (01:15)
It was Laemmle, and he produced. So where would his studios have been? Or what—
 
Charles David: (01:19)
The west coast. 
 
William Grisham: (01:20)
Alright, the Laemmle studios, west coast and New York, because Universal was in New York. There was also, well, go on about your recollections of Laemmle. 
 
Charles David: (01:31)
Well—
 
William Grisham: (01:34)
You said—
 
Charles David: (01:34)
He had this lab, this studio and the, he also had a place called The Commercial Filmers. That's on 173 North Green. And a fellow named, I’ve forgotten his name, but he was running it. 
 
William Grisham: (01:51)
Yes. 
 
Charles David: (01:52)
And he quit, and they put me in charge. 
 
William Grisham: (01:55)
Of Commercial Filmers. 
 
Charles David: (01:57)
Commercial Filmers.
 
William Grisham: (01:58)
What year was that? You remember that, Mr. David? 
 
Charles David: (02:00)
When was I married? ’13. 
 
William Grisham: (02:02)
1913. 
 
Charles David: (02:04)
And, I forget the guy’s name. Well, anyway, he quit he quit and I took over. And Abe Stern was one of the, one of Laemmle’s relatives. And he was sort of, you know, in charge of a lot of things. And he sold commercials to the studio. I mean the laboratory. I mean a shop. That's what it was. ‘Cause we made titles and these “just a moment please” slides and stuff like that. And we renovated film. So—
 
William Grisham: (02:44)
Did you shoot any original film yourself or not? 
 
Charles David: (02:48)
No, not then. I was only a kid, crazy as a bedbug. And I was working for him for a while, and then Abe Stern sold the thing to another company, another guy, Jewish of course. And I was out in the [inaudible], was working there and he come up one day. He says, “I'm your new boss.” So I still work. And then Laemmle called me, you know. I went up to, down to the exchange and he said, “This check, did you, did you okay this? Did you sign it? Did you receive this check?” And I said, “No. I've never seen it before.” [Inaudible] $500 for that place. It was an operating place. And somebody else signed my name to the check. They sold it for $500 and someone made it out to Charles David. He said, “Thank you, Charlie.” And soon after that, Abe Stern transferred somewhere else. He knew exactly who did it now. So then after that, well, [inaudible]. Because I took the Commercial Filmers over. I bought it myself. 
 
William Grisham: (04:13)
And what did you do there now? Was it renovating film? 
 
Charles David: (04:16)
Renovating film. I had to buffer the oil and stuff off of the, you know, those days they, the film was a little bit tough. These guys, these operators, to take this on oil can and [inaudible] and run it through. So we we’d renovate it and patch it up. The Sprockets [inaudible]—
 
William Grisham: (04:40)
Then that would be set on—
 
Charles David: (04:42)
Then we’d send it right back to the studio or to the Exchange.
 
William Grisham: (04:46)
To the Exchange.
 
Charles David: (04:46)
It was the Laemmle Film Exchange. 
 
William Grisham: (04:48)
His was, his was an exchange before he got into production. Did he do any production at all in Chicago, that you knew?
 
Charles David: (04:57)
Oh, this is all the beginning. I had the a, then I moved, then they [inaudible] 173 building and I had to move. And in those days, everything in the loop was direct [inaudible] and I moved to Curtis and Randolph. But then that was a [inaudible]. It was a wonderful building, but it had a two story frame house in the back. And I rented that and I put in a laboratory, of course. Everywhere I owned I had to have a lab. And I couldn't use the renovator because that had all direct motors and all on it. 
 
William Grisham: (05:39)
Yeah. 
 
Charles David: (05:39)
So I had to start all over again. And at that time I put in some tanks, racks and tanks the first time that, no, I didn't either. I had—
 
William Grisham: (05:48)
Drawing. Developing a drawing, right? 
 
Charles David: (05:51)
No, I did have tanks. I put in tanks there. And I was quite successful at that. And when the Eastland went down, I was the only camera man in the, in the town. And I got a wire from Laemmle, from Universal in New York to cover the shipwreck at the mouth of the river. 
 
William Grisham: (06:16)
When was that? That was the—
 
Charles David: (06:18)
It was about ‘14 or ’13 or I don't know when it went down. Oh, it must've been ‘15. Because Ed was a baby. And a guy named McGee come out west. He was charged there and we put out a whole reel on the sinking of, of the tipping of the Eastland, you know. 
 
William Grisham: (06:38)
That was the—
 
Charles David: (06:40)
The Eastland disaster.

William Grisham: (06:41)
Yeah, that was when it just turned completely over, right?
 
Charles David: (06:43)
Turned off on the side. 
 
William Grisham: (06:45)
Yeah.
 
Charles David: (06:45)
Drowned eight-hundred and some odd people. 
 
William Grisham: (06:47)
Yeah, it was a real disaster, wasn’t it? 
 
Charles David: (06:48)
My place was at Curtis and Randolph and the second regiment armory was at Curtis and Washington almost back to back. And that's where they had the morgue. So I really had a lot to do. 
 
William Grisham: (07:02)
And you did record that then? 
 
Charles David: (:07:04)
Well, I made several hundred feet and we got a one real picture out. And I think I made about—I was the only camera man on it them—
 
William Grisham: (07:15)
Yeah. 
 
Charles David: (07:16)
By the neck. 
 
William Grisham: (07:18)
Was there at this time, was there any kind of newsreel? I know that Selig started the newsreel with the Tribune. 
 
Charles David: (07:26)
Selig-Tribune. No, that was afterwards. 
 
William Grisham: (07:28)
That was the Selig-Tribune attribute. And then later the Trib dropped out of that and they went to Hearstright, Selig-Hearst? The Selig-Hearst? 
 
Charles David: (07:34)
No, no. Hearsthad international. They didn’t [inaudible] anybody. The Selig-Tribunejust died. 
 
William Grisham: (07:41)
Yeah. Why did it? 
 
Charles David: (07:42)
That was, well, it wasn’t a good movie reel. 
 
William Grisham: (07:45)
It wasn't very good. 
 
Charles David: (07:46)
Amos and Andy was the [inaudible]. They called it the [inaudible] Sam ‘n’ Henry, and they were supposed to illustrate the reel. [Inaudible] flat on his face so it folded. And then they went over to the daily news and become Amos ‘n’ Andy, and they were quite some people in then. But they started with Selig-Tribune. And it didn't last anytime. And Pathé, of course, Pathé Newsstayed right on through. 
 
William Grisham: (08:18)
That stayed right on through, didn’t it? That Movie Talk. 
 
Charles David: (08:21)
Yeah. And Hearst kept the Movie Talk. Well, that was, that was a Hearst-Fox D Light thing [inaudible].  
 
William Grisham: (08:28)
It was Hearst-Fox, right, it was. Well, Fox Movie [inaudible]. Now tell me about the actors, the studios. How did they shoot these films? Let’s say at Essanay. Or if you remember the Selig, you know, the Selig operation. What, how was it shot? Beverly kept, keeps talking—Bayne kept talking to me about, they're putting lines on the floor.
 
Charles David: (08:54)
Oh, we always had lines. 
 
William Grisham: (08:55)
Okay. Tell me about that, will you. 
 
Charles David: (08:57)
Well, at the beginning I didn't trust the cameramen So they'd make a, the angle of the two-inch lamps . We had very few lenses, you know, and the film was awfully slow. And they'd get a triangle, build a triangle out the, you know, the angle of the camera. 
 
William Grisham: (09:14)
Yes. 
 
Charles David: (09:15)
And then they’d have to stay in that. And they’d build a set into that. 
 
William Grisham: (09:19)
It's a lens, a two inch lens, right? 
 
Charles David: (09:20)
Two-inch lens and three-five. 
 
William Grisham: (09:25)
And the—now did anybody ever experiment? For instance, you talked about the superiority of Biograph films, probably largely because of Griffith and because of Billy—
 
Charles David: (09:39)
Bitzer.
 
William Grisham: (09:40)
Bitzer. And because also of Lillian Gish, who also experimented quite a bit. She was—
 
Charles David: (09:48)
I don’t know anything about that. 
 
William Grisham: (09:49)
She was the one that started the backlighting. She told Billy [inaudible] backlight. And this is where they had Matt Gibson backlighting. 
 
Charles David: (09:54)
I remember that. 
 
William Grisham: (09:56)
Yep. The, and she later directed films, even edited. 
 
Charles David: (09:59)
He took credit for the backlighting. 
 
William Grisham: (10:01)
Well, it was she. It was started and she asked Billy to do this. And what if, what, was there any experimentation at all? Because I've seen some of these films and the editing is rather great. It's parallel editing and all that. But there isn't a heck of a lot of imaginative camera work at Essanay. I'm talking about when Griffith said, “Why don't you strap your camera on and roll down a hill? And let's see what we get.” Was there anybody who was there who was asking these questions? Like, what if you did this? What if you panned? What if you tilted up, you know, this type of thing?

Charles David: (10:39)
Well, we were very crude.

William Grisham: (10:40)
They didn't do that? 
 
Charles David: (10:42)
We were not aggressive. 
 
William Grisham: (10:43)
In other words, the cameraman, the directors didn't ask for these. 
 
Charles David: (10:48)
They didn't ask for them because they couldn't get. You know, we had to, now we have [inaudible] of pan and tilt. 
 
William Grisham: (10:56)
Right. 
 
Charles David: (10:56)
In those days we had two cranks, one tilt and one pan. And the camera would go like just very slowly. That’s all you could get out of it. 
 
William Grisham: (11:05)
And yet Griffith was able to [inaudible]—
 
Charles David: (11:08)
He was able to do everything, [inaudible] camera and everything else.
 
William Grisham: (11:12)
Right. And all of this, there was no, in other words, there was no one really notable here. 
 
Charles David: (11:19)
No, nobody here was good. 
 
William Grisham: (11:24)
Was there a great deal of rivalry between Essanay and Selig? 
 
Charles David: (11:28)
Oh, they—terrible. 

William Grisham: (11:32)
You remember any of the Selig actors at all?
 
Charles David: (11:35)
well, I got a million pictures of—
 
William Grisham: (11:37)
Sanche, Tom Sanche. And—
 
Charles David: (11:39)
I don't remember them. If they were at Essanay, I’d remember them. 
 
William Grisham: (11:43)
Right. What, Ruth Stonehouse was in, what would her, mainly comedies or what? 
 
Charles David: (11:50)
[Inaudible] sister.
 
William Grisham: (11:53)
I see. 
 
Charles David: (11:54)
They didn't, we didn't make any real comedies except for Ben Turpin. 
 
William Grisham: (11:59)
You know, what about Ben? Can you tell me anything about that? 
 
Charles David: (12:02)
He was our janitor and prop man. 
 
William Grisham: (12:05)
At the very beginning, right? 
 
Charles David: (12:07)
Yeah. 
 
William Grisham: (12:08)
And where did he come from? 
 
Charles David: (12:11)
I understand he was in vaudeville. 
 
William Grisham: (12:13)
Yeah. Is that story about his going over the wall in the cemetery to pick flowers so that he could put some flowers, to take flowers off of grave so he can put some on the set true?
 
Charles David: (12:24)
Oh, he used to do that all the time. We used to play ball in the, on the back lot, you know, the big lot there. And the kids would batter over in the cemetery and, there’d be a funeral going on. They walked right into the flowers and get the ball out. And they used that to—Ben Turpin, of course, he was one of them that we would do a thing. He was a prop man too, you know? One day I was, I was standing there when we were quite getting along pretty good. And  he’s, “Where’s the broom? Where’s the broom?” I didn't know what he was talking about.

William Grisham: (13:01)
He was supposed to have been in the first film that was ever made by Essanay called An Awful Skate. Do you remember anything?
 
Charles David: (13:08)
That was an Essanay wasn’t it? 
 
William Grisham: (13:09)
Yeah. An Awful Skate. 
 
Charles David: (13:10)
Yeah, that was our comedy situation, skate down Clark Street. 
 
William Grisham: (13:14)
Skated down Clark Street. 
 
Charles David: (13:16)
Yeah. 

William Grisham: (13:16)
Right. Now, was that Ben on skates or no? 
 
Charles David: (13:18)
Yeah. Ben was on skates. 
 
William Grisham: (13:19)
That's what I [inaudible]. 
 
Charles David: (13:20)
He’d try anything. 
 
William Grisham: (13:21)
Ben was on skates and that was An Awful Skate. And that was the first film they did. 
 
Charles David: (13:27)
Those are two-hundred and fifty foot comedies. 
 
William Grisham: (13:29)
Right. 250 feet. And now Ben did several stints with them and then went, probably went back to vaudeville, didn’t he. 
 
Charles David: (13:39)
No, he went out west and they grabbed him. He was [inaudible]. 
 
William Grisham: (13:41)
Well, he went out—Chaplin said that he took him out west after Chaplin left in 1915. He took Ben Turpin with him to Niles Canyon, California, where they had the other Essanay. 
 
Charles David: (13:57)
Chaplin was too selfish to take anybody. 
 
William Grisham: (14:01)
Did Chaplin, as Beverly said, put up partitions so that nobody could look into his shooting on the set or what? 
 
Charles David: (14:09)
Well, it was quite possible because he was clannish as hell. He’d sit there for hours in a [inaudible], everybody waiting for him to make a show. He was a perfectionist. He drove everybody crazy. 
 
William Grisham: (14:23)
He was a perfectionist, right. Yeah. And—
 
Charles David: (14:27)
A one man band. 

William Grisham: (14:31)
All right. Any other recollections of Essanay that you really, you know—my information of the early part is very sketchy, I know.
 
Charles David: (14:40)
Well, I know it thoroughly because of Luxembourg, the electrician, the first electrician. 
 
William Grisham: (14:46)
What was his name now? 
 
Charles David: (14:48)
Luxembourg.
 
William Grisham: (14:49)
Luxembourg. How would you spell that? 
 
Charles David: (14:51)
[Inaudible]. 
 
William Grisham: (14:55)
And he was the first electrician. Did you hire Hazel Buddemeyer’s husband? What was his name? 
 
Charles David: (15:03)
 Oh, he was—Lutze tried to get me to be his assistant, and I wouldn't go. I wanted to be a cameraman. So this Buddemeyer come in and he got a job as an assistant. And the way Hazel met him, I used to be a dance hound. I’d go to a dance ten times a week If I could. And Hazel's club or something was, they opened a new dance hall. And Hazel gave me a bunch of tickets to sell. So the first one night tackled was Buddy and we went to the dance. And that’s where he met her. 
 
William Grisham: (15:39)
And was he, was she employed there or [inaudible]. 
 
Charles David: (15:41)
She was one of the film—
 
William Grisham: (15:43)
Cutters.
 
Charles David: (15:44)
Cutters. 
 
William Grisham: (15:44)
Yeah. 
 
Charles David: (15:45)
And my sister. 
 
William Grisham: (15:46)
Your sister was also a film cutter. 
 
Charles David: (15:48)
She was the negative cutter.
 
William Grisham: (15:49)
The negative cutter. What now, was Hazel a negative cutter or was she—?
 
Charles David: (15:51)
 Well, most of them did it but Bess was more precise. So she finally got the job as cutting and cleaning the negative. 
 
William Grisham: (16:00)
And her—
 
Charles David: (16:02)
Al Stice was the superintendent. 
 
William Grisham: (16:03)
Who was? 
 
Charles David: (16:04)
Al Stice. He was the lab superintendent. He owes me $75. [Inaudlbe] after he fired me. 
 
William Grisham: (16:17)
Why did he, why did Al Stice fire you anyway?
 
Charles David: (16:19)
I wouldn't dare tell you. He had, to tell you the truth, he used to take, forgotten her name now, the secretary and he'd go down after we cut the film, you know, and take a two-hundred foot roll down. [Inaudible} the projection room. He’d show that film, probably an hour and a half. And one Saturday afternoon, we worked from six to, eight to six every day, including Saturday. And I wanted to play ball. I was a ballplayer before I went with Essanay. 
 
William Grisham: (16:55)
Right. 
 
Charles David: (16:56)
 So I was banging on the door. “I want to go home, Al. We’re through. Can I go home?” So he came out and he was red as a beet. “You’re fired.” And I get gone back to Spoor. [Inaudible}, “To hell with you.” And on my way I went. That's how it happened. Then there was a guy, I think his name was Bergen. He was in on something, and He [inaudible] Spoor to death on something. He [inaudible] something to do with it. 
 
William Grisham: (17:24)
You know, that was [inaudible]. And, that was—
 
Charles David: (17:29)
[Inaudible] on Spoor.
 
William Grisham: (17:30)
Well, that was on the so-called Natural vision. 
 
Charles David: (17:33)
Yeah, but he was nosing around there for a long while before they tackled the Natural vision. You know, Spoor said he wouldn't sell to the Exchanges. He told them to go to hell. And that's why he ruined them. They pulled on him. 
 
William Grisham: (17:47)
Why did he—wouldn't sell? Why wouldn't he sell to the Exchanges? 
 
Charles David: (17:51)
He got mad at him. 
 
William Grisham: (17:52)
Yeah. 
 
Charles David: (17:53)
That is the Independent Exchanges. 

William Grisham: (17:58)
Right. So he lost his fortune with [inaudible], didn’t he?
 
Charles David: (18:03)
Yeah. 
 
William Grisham: (18:06)
Did you ever see the Natural vision? 
 
Charles David: (18:07)
Very often.
 
William Grisham: (18:09)
What was the effect? They said that—
 
Charles David: (18:10)
It was pretty, that's all. It was a wide screen. 
 
William Grisham: (18:13)
That's all it was. Wasn’t it a wide angle lens that he used?  
 
 
Charles David: (18:16)
Well, it was, but he’d run the film awfully fast. You had to have you're projector embedded in concrete to keep it steady. They had a show at the Century of Progress, you know? 
 
William Grisham: (18:30)
Right. He had a big pavilion there. I was told that there were two screens. One was a transparent screen and one—
 
Charles David: (18:36)
No. 
 
William Grisham: (18:37) 
That’s wrong, isn’t it? 
 
Charles David: (18:38)
It’s just a circular screen. 
 
William Grisham: (18:39)
Yeah. But there were two screens, and it was not in 3D as they said it was? 
 
Charles David: (18:44)
It looked like 3D because it was wide. 
 
William Grisham: (18:47)
It was just simply wide and also wide angle? 
 
Charles David:(18:49)
Yeah. That’s when the Albee brothers were cameraman. That’s when [inaudible] was a cameraman. He, they all worked on that. 
 
William Grisham: (18:57)
Now I have a strip of the natural vision film. And they said two images were projected on the film and the projector then shot this film and projected the film. And one of the images would hit the transparent screen and the other would hit the—
 
Charles David: (19:16)
I don’t believe that. 

William Grisham: (19:17)
That's all wrong. 
 
Charles David: (19:18)
I think that's wrong. 
 
William Grisham: (19:19)
And in other words, they did not shoot two images onto, because I don't see two images on the film that I have. 
 
Charles David: (19:25)
No. 
 
William Grisham: (19:26)
It was just simple wide angle.
 
Charles David: (19:28)
Wide angle. That's all it was. 
 
William Grisham: (19:30)
And it was—
 
Charles David: (19:32)
Seventy millimeter instead of thirty-five. 
 
William Grisham: (19:34)
It was sixty-three millimeters is what it was. 
 
Charles David: (19:36)
I think it was off color somewhere.

William Grisham: (19:38)
Yeah. Sixty-three. 
 
Charles David: (19:41)
Have we got [inaudible]. 
 
Speaker 4: (19:41)
No. 
 
Charles David: (19:41)
I have them though. 
 
William Grisham: (19:42)
It was sixty-three millimeters. So it was, it was not as reported in the press that there was—
 
Charles David: (19:47)
I don’t think so. 
 
William Grisham: (19:48)
A 3D effect. 
 
Charles David: (19:50)
I never worked on it, but I knew Mage and the Spoor, Albee brothers. 
 
William Grisham: (19:55)
Now who were the Albee brothers? 
 
Charles David: (19:57)
Well, they were the cameramen after things started to fade out.
 
William Grisham: 
And then Spoor and [inaudible] formed their own major [inaudible]—
 
Charles David: (20:05)
Yeah, that was Essanay. 
 
William Grisham: (20:06)
What? 
 
Charles David: (20:07)
That was Essanay. Spoor and [inaudible]. It was [inaudible], Spoor and Oscar, and Bill [inaudible]. 
 
 
William Grisham: (20:14)
Oscar and Bill [inaudible]. Right. Okay. Of all the major early studios, there was American. There was Selig. There was—
 
Charles David: (20:23)
Metropolitan came in there. They were Independence, you know. They never amounted to anything but I thought it was a theater. Or it might've been a warehouse, but it was on Central Division.  Or there was a technical, a high school, either Lane or Crane. And that was across the street. And they had a studio, And they made a couple of pictures but it leaked in there so that they couldn't operate. Or they didn't go for three or four months. And then they folded. 
 
William Grisham: (21:00)
And that was in about what year would you estimate that would be? 
 
Charles David: (21:04)
’15. 
 
William Grisham: (21:06)
1915. And then the only other studio would have been—where was Kalem located? 
 
Charles David: (21:12)
Oh, they were in the east.
 
William Grisham: (21:14)
They were in the east, but George Klein was in Chicago. 
 
Charles David: (21:18)
Klein.
 
William Grisham: (21:19)
Well, he pronounced Klein and, but everybody said Klein. Okay. George Klein was, what did he do? Because he was in Chicago too. 
 
Charles David: (21:27)
The name sounds so [inaudible] but I can’t place him.  
 
William Grisham: (21:29)
He presented foreign films, brought them over and then presented them. But Kalem was in the east. Was that New York?

Charles David: (21:40)
I don't know whether it was New York or—
 
William Grisham: (21:41)
Philadelphia. [inaudible]
 
Charles David: (21:42)
No, Lubin was in Philadelphia. 

William Grisham: (21:45)
Did you ever get to meet Mr. Lubin or know anything about Lubin?
 
Charles David: (21:49)
No. 
 
William Grisham: (21:50)
He could not speak English very well because—it must have been broken English because he writes almost in broken English. I have some of his letters. Now let's get to your, to Ebony now.
 
Charles David: (22:06)
I want you to excuse me a minute. 
 
William Grisham: (22:07)
Can you get by? 
 
[Break in tape]
 
Charles David: (22:09)
What happened here? We have twenty  pictures on the General Film program. And they'd been collecting the dough and everybody grabbed everything. And that was the end of us. 
 
Speaker 3: (22:19)
Sorry, didn’t you start at Ebony Films? 
 
William Grisham: (22:21)
Thank you. 
 
Charles David: (22:23)
No. No, I— they were floundering around. And I was over the little lab called Doctor—anyway, a little lab where we did developing. We had a little studio. And I heard that they wanted—you had to get film processed at French American Film Company, a little place over on [inaudible] and Madison.  And it was terrible. They'd match, we’d match up the negative with the positive from the dirt spots off the negative onto the positive. And you didn’t have to go any further. We can just match up the positives of that. Well, anyway, there was almost a year before I found out to they were brewing and hadn’t gotten out a picture yet. I went in there and in two weeks we had a picture out. 
 
Speaker 3: (23:22)
You wrote the [inaudible]. 
 
Charles David: (23:24)
I wrote the scripts and I put a lab in there. I was a good lab man. I knew how to make, build labs. And I put a lab in there. We did our own finishing, and in no time at all we had it in good shape. 
 
William Grisham: (23:37)
Where was their—where was that location? We'll, I'll ask you this again. I want to give this back to you so I don't take it. Where was Ebony? Was that, that place that you told me about? 
 
Charles David: (23:48)
United Photo. 
 
William Grisham: (23:49)
United Photo. Yeah. Okay. 
 
Charles David: (23:52)
They rented it from the United Photo Place Company, which went broke.

Speaker 3: (24:05)
You got another room [inaudible]. 
 
Charles David: (24:08)
Do you got this thing going? 
 
William Grisham: (24:09)
I’ve got three tapes. 
 
William Grisham: (24:12)
Are they still going right now? 
 
Speaker 4: (24:12)
Yeah. 
 
William Grisham: (24:13)
You can turn that off. 
 
[Break in tape]
 
Charles David: (24:15)
Arkham and Shorty Richardson and I. Shorty's coming over tomorrow. 
 
William Grisham: (24:22)
Great. Now this was—these were the perforators that you use—
 
Charles David: (24:28)
This is the first perforator. 
 
William Grisham: (24:29)
At Essanay or what? 
 
Charles David: (24:30)
At Essanay. No. 
 
William Grisham: (24:32)
Did you use these [inaudible].
 
Charles David: (24:32)
We tried that out at Essanay. 
 
William Grisham: (24:34)
And it didn’t—
 
Charles David: (24:35)
Then Howell brought another perforator. But this was the first printer I used. I mean this is the first perforator. It's called a Williamson [inaudible] because—
 
William Grisham: (24:28)
[Inaudible] it on? Yeah. Yeah. Great. Williamson [inaudible]. 
 
Charles David: (24:51)
Yeah. And we used to get the effect, the change of timing—
 
William Grisham: (25:04)
Scene? 
 
Charles David: (25:04)
You know. We had a [inaudible] on there with fifteen numbers on it and a spike here, and we’d it back and forth to get the different sound, different light. And every once in a while [inaudible]. That was the first job I had. 
 
William Grisham: (25:29)
What is this now?

Charles David: (25:33)
That's the lab crew. 
 
William Grisham: (25:35)
The lab crew at Essanay. 
 
Charles David: (25:36)
Yeah. 
 
William Grisham: (25:37)
Great. 
 
Charles David: (25:39)
This is [inaudible]. 
 
William Grisham: (24:45)
Zecker? 
 
Charles David: (25:46)
No. 
 
William Grisham: (25:47)
Who is he? 
 
Charles David: (25:47)
Harry Zeck isn’t on there. He was one of the printers after I left. There’s some of the best cameramen on the west coast on there. 
 
William Grisham: (26:00)
And then this is—
 
Charles David: (26:03)
This is the crew. 
 
William Grisham: (26:05)
The crew. 
 
Charles David: (26:06)
I took up a collection for our space and—let me put my specs on. Let’s see. That's Hazel. [Inaudible] this is a secretary. She was another one of the inspectors. There's my sister. And there's me. 
 
William Grisham: (26:37)
Here you are? 
 
Charles David: (26:38)
Yeah. There’s Harry Zeck. He’s down there somewhere. I think he's one of the promoters that we were talking about. And this is another one. She was a relative of—no she wasn’t. There were all the film inspectors. 
 
William Grisham: (26:55)
Okay. And tell me, this was about what year? 1910? 
 
 
Charles David: (27:00)
1910.
 
William Grisham: (27:01)
Yeah. You have it written on there. 
 
Charles David: (27:03)
Didn't you put it on there?  
 
Speaker 4: (27:04)
It’s written on the front. 
 
William Grisham: (27:04)
It’s on the front. I just saw it. 
 
Charles David: (27:06)
Essanay, X-Mas, 1910. 
 
William Grisham: (27:08)
Right? And then this? 
 
Speaker 3: (27:12)
[Inaudible]
 
Charles David: (27:18)
I don't remember any of them.
 
Speaker 3: (27:19)
[Inaudible].
 
William Grisham: (27:23)
It looks like Bayne. It is Bayne. Beverly Bayne.
 
Charles David: (27:30)
[Inaudible].  
 
William Grisham: (27:37)
[Inaudible]. Is that Travers? 
 
Speaker 3: (27:38)
Yes. 
 
Charles David: (27:38)
Yes. 
 
William Grisham: (27:39)
Richard Travers. That's not Bayne though. That is not Bayne. I don’t know who that is. Richard Travers. No [inaudible]. No [inaudible]. No. 
 
Speaker 4: (27:51)
I met a girl just [inaudible]. 
 
[Crosstalk] Charles David: (27:58)
Actors never [inaudible]. Never. 
 
William Grisham: (28:05)
What about Edward Arnold? 
 
Speaker 3: (28:07)
He may remember. 
 
Charles David: (28:08)
No, he was just the [inaudible] stuff.
 
Speaker 5: (28:12)
And guys, I hadn't heard that name in 40 years.

Charles David: (28:16)
Oh, this is the old Hollywood at the fair in Chicago. Grant Withers. I forget his name. He's quite an actor.  [Inaudible] was there sometime. Oh, these don't mean much. 
 
[Break in tape]
 
Charles David: (28:37)
…The  trust. 
 
William Grisham: (28:38)
Yeah.
 
Charles David: (28:39)
He, after everybody started snatching. I don't blame him. 
 
William Grisham: (28:43)
Yeah. 
 
Charles David: (28:44)
So we didn't get any money for our stuff. Of course, I was on the payroll that—we opened the studio. It was a—naturally we had sole stock.
 
William Grisham: (28:59)
Yes. 
 
Charles David: (28:59)
And up in Wisconsin there, the Four Wheel Drive at the time was really making money. And they'd take the Four Wheel Drive stock and sell it for twice what it was worth. And that kept Ebony going. 
 
William Grisham: (29:13)
What's Four Wheel Drive stock now?
 
Charles David: (29:15)
They make a Four Wheel Drive truck in Wisconsin. When the war broke out—
 
William Grisham: (29:21)
Yeah. 
 
Charles David: (29:22)
It was it. It was the best truck that was ever made. 
 
William Grisham: (29:27)
And was that part of the stock of Ebony or what. That's what I'm trying to figure out. 
 
Charles David: (29:31)
No, they sold the Four Wheel Drive stock. They bought, they took in the stock, give them Ebony stock for Four Wheel Drive. 
 
William Grisham: (29:39)
I see. It was an exchange. And that's what kept them going then. 
 
Charles David: (29:41)
Yeah
 
William Grisham: (29:42)
I see. 

Speaker 3: (29:44)
They used eggs for golf balls [inaudible]. 

Charles David: (29:49)
Oh that was in the [inaudible]. 
 
Speaker 3: (29:51)
I love that. 

Charles David: (29:52)
You’re not familiar with the west, going west from Chicago do you? [Inaudible] Bellwood and places like that? 
 
William Grisham: (30:00)
No. I am not. 
 
Charles David: (30:02)
Well, uh, it's quite built up now. You’ve heard of Westchester? 
 
William Grisham: (30:05)
Yes. 
 
Charles David: (30:06)
Well, we went out to Bellwood when we were, oh, a year old. We made the daisy film, they’d call it. it was rural comedies. 
 
William Grisham: (30:18)
And  why did they call them daisy films? 
 
Charles David: (30:20)
Oh, it was a screwball’s name that he named it. That’s all. 
 
William Grisham: (30:24)
Alright and this was where, now, with Essanay or—
 
Charles David: (30:29)
No, I owned the company. 
 
William Grisham: 
Alright This was now after Ebony? 
 
Charles David: (30:33)
No. Before Ebony.
 
William Grisham: (30:36)
Before Ebony.
 
Charles David: (30:38)
Ebony was in—
 
William Grisham: (30:44)
 1914 to 1918, you think? 
 
Charles David: (30:46)
Well, 1915 or something. 
 
William Grisham: (30:49)
‘15 to ‘18. 

Charles David: (30:50)
Took all my niggers away when the war started. 
 
William Grisham: (30:51)
Yeah. 
 
Charles David: (30:53)
And then they took the [inaudible] away from us.
 
William Grisham: (30:55)
Yeah. 
 
Charles David: (30:56) 
So I closed the studio. And after that, well, [inaudible] and Ralph Phillips started a school of acting. 
 
William Grisham: (31:03)
Who was in charge of Ebony? Who directed? Did you direct some of these? 
 
Charles David: (31:08)
I directed most of them but Phillips was the director. 
 
[Crosstalk] William Grisham: (31:10)
And you even wrote some of them?
 
Charles David: (31:12)
Phillip wrote the script and built the scenery and developed the negative and printed the positives. 
 
William Grisham: (31:20)
Fantastic. Phillip’s first name was what? 
 
Charles David: (31:21)
Ralph

William Grisham: (31:22)
And he was a Black man from—
 
Charles David: (31:25)
He was a Black White man.
 
William Grisham: (31:27)
Like the guy who runs Ebony now. 
 
Charles David: (31:30)
What? 
 
William Grisham: (31:30)
Like the guy who runs Ebony now Or was he a White man? 
 
Charles David: (31:32)
There is no Ebony anymore. 
 
William Grisham: (31:35)
No, but I’m talking about the Ebony magazine. He was not Black then? 
 
Charles David: (31:38)
No, he wasn’t. 
 
William Grisham: (31:39)
And his name was again, Phillips?
 
Charles David: (31:41)
Ralph Graham Phillips. 
 
William Grisham: (31:42)
Ralph Graham Phillips. You said there was a Black man in—
 
Charles David: (31:45)
Luther J. Pollard. He was a college man. He was—he run the whole thing.
 
William Grisham: (31:50)
And what happened to Luther J. Pollard after this whole thing? Where did he go? What did he—
 
Charles David: (31:55)
He probably died. I don’t know, but he quit. 

Speaker 5: (31:57) 
Didn’t we meet Pollard in the yard one time? Wasn’t that Pollard that we saw? 
 
Charles David: (32:02)
No. 
 
Speaker 5: (32:04)
Pollard. [Inaudible]

William Grisham: (32:06)
Was he who started then the whole idea? Excuse me. 
 
Speaker 5: (32:07)
I’m sorry.
 
William Grisham: (32:07)
No, you go ahead. 
 
Speaker 5: (32:08)
No, that’s all. 
 
Charles David: (32:10)
No, she's mistaken. Oh, that was an actor I met. 
 
Speaker 5: (32:14)
Oh. 
 
Charles David: (32:14)
After twenty-five years, I recognized one of the actors on the street. Dumbfounded him. 
 
William Grisham: (32:19)
Luther J Pollard was—where did he come from? 
 
Charles David: (32:24)
He lived in Evanston. 
 
William Grisham: (32:26)
Lived in Evanston. 
 
Charles David: (32:38)
Very respected man. 
 
William Grisham: (32:30)
And the well-educate? 
 
Charles David: (32:31)
Well-educated, a college man. And his brother was Fritz Pollard. He was the star of Brown University.
 
William Grisham: (32:41)
Great. And so it was Luther’s idea then to start Black comedy? 
 
Charles David: (32:49)
Yeah. 
 
William Grisham: (32:50)
And then you made it possible. You came in.
 
Charles David: (32:53)
I came in and rescued it. [Inaudible].
 
William Grisham: (32:54)
And rescued it from? Yeah. Right. Because they were—
 
Charles David: (32:57)
[Inaudible] flounder. 
 
 
William Grisham: (32:58)
Right. 
 
Charles David: (32:59)
I had this Essanay experience. 
 
William Grisham: (33:01)
Right. 
 
Charles David: (33:02)
And several others. 
 
William Grisham: (33:04)
What did Pollard do? Did he manage? 
 
Charles David: (33:05)
Just managed it. 
 
William Grisham: (33:06)
I see. 
 
Charles David: (33:07)
Raised the money. 
 
William Grisham: (33:09)
And he raised the money. And General Films distributed? Did you get any of into general distribution at all or what? 
 
Charles David: (33:16)
Oh yeah. We were having about twenty of them working. 
 
William Grisham: (33:19)
And they were doing well at the box office? 
 
Charles David: (33:21)
Yeah. 
 
William Grisham: (33:22)
So people really loved this? 
 
Charles David: (33:24)
Yeah. They liked it.

William Grisham: (33:25)
Yeah. Okay.
 
Charles David: (33:30)
I contacted Octavius. Or I called him one time. He wanted a million dollars to just be with us. He was high hat. Of course, he wrote the best nigger stories that was ever created. And he couldn't deal with us.
 
William Grisham: (33:49)
Did you buy any scripts in addition to—did you buy any scenarios? 
 
Charles David: (33:54)
We hired a—no, we didn't. We advertised for scripts and we got them by the dozens. We couldn't use them. 
 
William Grisham: (34:01)
And you couldn’t use them? 
 
Charles David: (34:02)
No, no body to them, you know. You can't write a comedy script. Most of that stuff is as you go along. 
 
William Grisham: (34:07)
Right. 
 
Charles David: (34:08)
And we hired a legless writer, and he did pretty good generally [inaudible]. 
 
William Grisham: (34:15)
White or Black. Was he Black? 
 
Charles David: (34:16)
No, he was white. And he was writing on a little couch, you know. And he’d come up the stairs and all and stumps right to here.  And we were sorry for him. And he was such a nice guy. And he turned out to be a terrible drunkard. And he wouldn't do anything. And he lost his chance for writing and went to the west coast and he got a job as a writer. He didn't last at all. 
 
William Grisham: (34:46)
The people at the studio—where did you get, now, the actors who could do this? Where did you find the Black actors? 
 
Charles David: (34:54)
Well, they're mostly out of vaudeville, you know. 
 
William Grisham: (34:56)
They were in vaudeville. 
 
Charles David: (34:57)
Some of them were in vaudeville. Some of them were raw. The best we had was raw material that’d come out and apply for a job and we put them on. 
 
William Grisham: (35:05)
And the—
 
Charles David: (35:05)
We had Bert Williams in one of the pictures. 
 
William Grisham: (35:08)
Bert Williams.
 
Charles David: (35:09)
And I think we— he made the last scene of his life. We put them him up in the tree. I don’t know. He was going to blow up or something. He was up in the tree with his baby suit on, a bonnet and so forth. Couple of weeks later, he died. 
 
William Grisham: (35:23)
And Burt had been in vaudeville. 
 
Charles David: (35:25)
Oh, he was a star. And he was, —what was his act like in vaudeville. What was he known for? 
 
Charles David: (35:32)
I think he was a standup comedian. 
 
William Grisham: (35:33)
Stand-up comedian, yeah. 
 
Charles David: (35:34)
I'm not sure. And then Sam Jackson. He was—his father was a big star in burlesque. 
 
William Grisham: (35:45)
And that was J.A.X? J.A.X. How did he spell his last name?
 
Charles David: (35:49)
J.A.C.K.S.
 
William Grisham: (35:50)
J.A.C.K.S. 
 
Charles David: (35:51)
Sam Jackson. 
 
William Grisham: (35:52)
And his father was also in the circuit then.  He was—
 
Charles David: (35:56)
He was a burlesque.
 
William Grisham: (35:58)
Burlesque circuit. Right. Any difficulty in working with them or any ease or what?  What about you—
 
Charles David: (36:08)
I got along swell with them. 
 
William Grisham: (36:10)
Right. 

Charles David: (36:11)
Or lazy and shiftless and sexy. I had to watch out for that. They'd go in the prop room. For years, I had a 8x10 camera. You know in those days we had a view, what they call a view camera, a studio camera. 
 
William Grisham: (36:34)
Yes. 
 
Charles David: (36:34)
And those beautiful lens on it. And I used to leave it and I've ever thought anything of it. And that thing stayed there day in and day out with all these boagies around. And one day one of the stockholders from Wisconsin come down. I was showing him around. And I told him I could trust these guys. And I picked up the focusing cloth. No, I said, “Here's a camera stand here worth a couple of hundred dollars and nobody ever bothered.” And I looked up and the focus across the lens is gone. You sold me down the river.

William Grisham: (37:13)
What— where did you find the women actors, now, the Black women? 
 
Charles David: (37:18)
Well—
 
William Grisham: (37:19)
Were they—
 
Charles David: (37:19)
I don't know. 
 
William Grisham: (37:20)
Did they come in with the others or what? 
 
Charles David: (37:22)
Well, you know, it got to be known that we pay salaries, which was unusual for them. 
 
William Grisham: (37:27)
What did you pay in those days? I have some comparison. What did you pay? 
 
Charles David: (37:30)
They got all the way from $30 to $80 a piece. 

William Grisham: (37:34)
For what? 
 
Charles David: (37:35)
A week. 
 
William Grisham: (37:35)
A week. 
 
Charles David: (37:36)
Yeah. 
 
William Grisham: (37:37)
Which was pretty darn good. 
 
Charles David: (37:38)
That was good. 
 
William Grisham: (37:38)
You bet. 
 
Charles David: (37:40)
Some of them worked for, you know, $10 when we needed them for two or three days for a picture. 

Speaker 5: (37:47)
He had some excellent stills from the Ebony films. 

William Grisham: (37:50) 
Oh great. 
 
Charles David: (37:51)
Not excellent. They were stills. 

Speaker 5: (37:52)
Oh, they’re good. They’re sharp. 

William Grisham: (37:57)
Do you have any of the reels left at all? I wonder what—
 
Speaker 5: (38:03)
Three, I think. 
 
William Grisham: (38:04) 
You have three reels now? I wonder if—you can't, of course, you can't play them now because the Sprocket holes have shrunk, but—
 
Speaker 3: (38:09)
Different portions of them are damaged.  
 
William Grisham: (38:11)
And they’re damaged? I wonder if they could be transferred to—I’m sure they could be transferred.  
 
Charles David: (38:18)
Might go to sixteen.
 
William Grisham: (38:19)
To ask if they can go to sixteen, that’s what I was saying. You can put them on—what’s the name of the machine that has the rubber guides on it so that it wouldn't hurt. 

Charles David: (38:31)
I’m not familiar with the modern stuff. 
 
Speaker 6: (38:33)
Who does that? 

William Grisham: (38:35)
Well, Astro did for a while. Astro here had a machine that could do that. But they don't handle nitrate. You know, nobody handles nitrate anymore because they’re not insured for it. You could do it easily. 
 
Speaker 3: (38:51)
We did one with the Bolex camera. We had a board set up [inaudible]. 

William Grisham: (38:55)
Frame by frame. She did a frame by frame. 
 
Speaker 4: (38:56)
She did a frame by frame and it looked real good. 
 
William Grisham: (39:00)
Do you have that anywhere? 
 
Speaker 5: (39:01)
It was stolen.
 
Speaker 6: (39:02)
It was stolen. 

Speaker 5: (39:02)
Along with the projector. 
 
Speaker 6: (39:04)
[Inaudible] 

Charles David: (39:09)
This is all [inaudible]. 
 
William Grisham: (39:10)
You did a frame by frame on that.  Isn’t that—doesn’t that make you sore? 
 
Speaker 6: (39:14)
Yes. 
 
Speaker 5: (39:16)
In a public garage. 
 
Speaker 3: (39:19)
Yeah, broke into the car and stole his projector. Yeah. 

William Grisham: (39:21)
So they probably threw the film away. 

Speaker 3: (39:25)
So we can do that again.
 
William Grisham: (39:28)
Well—

Charles David: (39:28)
Any chance of you getting—I guess they're all dead by now—Bert and [inaudible] cameraman, Oscar Depew. He was one of these. 
 
William Grisham: (39:36)
No, Oscar is alive. 
 
Charles David: (39:38)
Is he? 
 
William Grisham: (39:38)
Yes. Oscar is alive. 
 
Charles David: (39:38)
You ever seen him, give him my best. 
 
William Grisham: (39:41)
I will. Believe me, I will. Oscar would know about it, wouldn’t he?
 
Charles David: (39:47)
Oh, he’d know all about that. 
 
William Grisham: (39:48)
Yeah. 
 
Charles David: (39:54)
And—
 
William Grisham: (39:54)
Did you know a Mr. Irving Mack? 

Charles David: (39:58)
Did I know Irving Mack? I tried to keep him out of the business.
 
William Grisham: (40:02)
Did you? 
 
Charles David: (40:02)
He had a printing office across the street. It was a title business because he printed the titles for some of them, you know? And I told him to get the hell out of there. I was running the Daily News lab on ninth and Wabash, and he was across the street in the basement. And he finally bought out the title company. And they—I know Irving very well. 
 
William Grisham: (40:25)
I just want him not too long ago. 
 
Charles David: (40:28)
Well, he doesn’t know anything about the business. 
 
William Grisham: (40:29)
No, he doesn't. You’re right. He does not. 
 
Charles David: (40:32)
He made a lot of money. 
 
William Grisham: (40:33)
He made a bit of money, yeah.  But he doesn’t know anything about the business. 
 
Charles David: (40:37)
Another funny item with Irving Mack. After I left—
 
William Grisham: (40:42)
[Inaudible]
 
Speaker 3: (40:44)
Wait until you see the basement. Excuse me, [inaudible]. 
 
Charles David: (40:49)
You know, I built a lab on ninth and Wabash for the Daily News, Universal News reel.
 
William Grisham: (40:55)
Ninth and Wabash. 
 
Charles David: (40:57)
It was a nine story building the elevator run eight. I put a lab on top floor. I was a nut for putting in laboratories. 
 
William Grisham: (41:05)
You really did. Everywhere you went [inaudible]. 
 
Charles David: (41:07)
Everywhere I went, I’d build a laboratory. 
 
William Grisham: (41:10)
That's amazing. Okay. Well, let’s go down. Why don't we see the cameras. 
 
Charles David: (41:18)
Let’s walk around.

English

1/1

Yes

Cassette Tape ➜ C60

Interview

Interviews

Motion picture industry
Motion picture film
History
Motion picture projectors
Motion picture production & direction